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[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

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Honestly, this vision you guys keep referring to, from ACoK... at the time when I read it I figured it was figurative for Theon and what he was eventually about-- the sacking of Winterfell, falling prey to Reek [becoming Reek] etc etc. Of course it makes retroactive sense now that is was actually Euron, but that's as much a post rationalization as my thinking it was Theon. 

It doesn't prop up anyone's argument otherwise, and despite what some think, none of those visions are obviously about Euron hahaha... 

Give me a break. 

Edited by JEORDHl

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21 hours ago, The Wolves said:

This chapter sounds like a horror story, WTF!!! 

There is a lot of Horror in ASoIaF. Have you not noticed? Also, if you would like to read a great Martin Horror story, check out Sandkings!

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7 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

Honestly, this vision you guys keep referring to, from ACoK... at the time when I read it I figured it was figurative for Theon and what he was eventually about-- the sacking of Winterfell, falling prey to Reek [becoming Reek] etc etc. Of course it makes retroactive sense now that is was actually Euron, but that's as much a post rationalization as my thinking it was Theon. 

It doesn't prop up anyone's argument otherwise, and despite what some think, none of those visions are obviously about Euron hahaha... 

Give me a break. 

It's all about retrospective when it came to prophecies. Was the Red Wedding vision in that vision the red wedding when I first read it, of course not.  It might have given me an inkling of something going on with Robb, but that's it, only after the Red Wedding in book 3 did it become obvious that it was the Red Wedding.  Nor did it become obvious that the mummer's dragon was Aegon until after book 5. 

So of course you do not know for sure it was about Euron back in book 2, that's the point, prophecies only become obvious when the get fulfilled.

  

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10 minutes ago, TeethGrinder said:

It will need to be confirmed or denied by someone who was there.  I read it, and it doesn't sound like GRRM, tbh (but I was not at the reading).

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It's interesting that there are no dragons in Aeron's vision of Euron on the throne. Someone did post about the two times "pale fire" has been used in the text, one of which indicating Viserion.  Since dragons are gender neutral/flexible, Viserion could be female, but more likely if the pale fire is Viserion then the woman is his rider and it isn't Dany. Still, I would think if there was a dragon in the vision, Aeron would have seen a dragon. They're kind of hard to miss.

Val is a good option for our white fire lady. I joked years ago about her being NQ 2.0 and her chosen consort the new NK. Now that seems a bit less funny and more plausible. Ice burns in a way. Just the power of the Others or the original NQ would work too. If she's still around, she may want vengeance for her poor, slain husband. But I see Euron is more Maegor the Cruel reborn than NK reborn. NK was supposedly man by day, monster by night. Euron is monster 24/7.

I also like the idea of Tyene being the woman. And the circumstantial evidence for Sheira is nice too. I dismiss Quaithe because she has no association with white and hasn't said anything to Dany so far that isn't true. 

But I have to say that Cersei takes the cake. This would open up so many options. For example...what if Maggy's fortune didn't refer to King Robert but to King Euron?  Cersei had three children, not with Euron. Euron could easily have 16 bastards out there.  What if the YMBQ who takes everything (left) that she holds dear*** is married to the valonqar? Think about it. Victarion has a history of strangling women who sleep with his brother, and Dany's Valyrian blood takes us back to Maggy not just saying "little brother" in the first place. 

***her children are already dead, and Jaime's deserted her so what does she have left? As Euron's wife she retains the title and power of queen, but only as long as he lives. And there's Casterly Rock, which will be taken by Dany's forces, led by Tyrion--the foreshadowing of which is Tyrion's complaining about his first job which was running the CR sewers, and the taking of Meereen...say it with me...through the sewers.

The FM are not with Euron. They believe that death is a gift, something sacred, or something you pay for. Euron believes in slaughtering for free and for fun. But...they may still be on the job for him. A dragon egg (which we seem to be assuming was the payment he made) should buy more than the death of one self-proclaimed king. I could be wrong about that, but it seems to me that he might have been able to bargain two deaths with that kind of payment. Does he really want Dany and/or her dragons? The dragons aren't just the best way to conquer, they're also the only things that can stop Euron from conquering. And if the dragonhorn works as he seems to think it does, once he has the dragons in thrall he wouldn't need Dany.  Then he has the problem of anyone claiming the dragonhorn and stealing the dragons. How do you solve that problem? Maybe if you have a book all about dragons it will tell you how to kill them.  And why would the FM go along with this multi-step, multi-hit job? Where did they start out? Valyria...in the mines. And who owned the mines? The rich elite of the freehold. And who were they? Dragonlords. Dany uses the dragons to free slaves, but anyone else might use them to enslave. OR...could be the FM want the book so they can keep Euron from using the dragons to enslave...given that slaving/thralling is an honored tradition in the Ironborn culture.

Back to the point of the larger-than-necessary-fee, I've been thinking (partly thanks to the Mercy chapter) that Arya would be the perfect foil to an FM hit on Dany. She wants to see the dragons, and she will know how to spot "no one." This would also give her a pass on the standard execution Dany might normally have in store for the offspring of Ned Stark, Usurper's Dog. 

Part 1 of 2.

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Part 2 of 2, and apologies for the length of the posts.

Shoutout to Ibbison of Ibben, for noting the lack of OGs in Euron's magical line-up.

Note to chrisdaw...on the subject of Euron's brother and unborn child...it's said there is power in king's blood.

The armor. If it actually IS Valyrian Steel, then yeah he probably got it from the warlocks. I mean if you're carrying around a dragonhorn you might want some fireproof armor too. But I'm curious about the runes. VS is already magic, and will be fire and blood magic per Valyrian standard magical practices. So what are the runes for? And are they Valyrian, or some other language?

I see no reason why the minor dragonlord Targs would need VS armor. For one thing, they are "blood of the dragon" and seem to have a tendency to think they can't be killed by fire...they're wrong of course. I could see someone else--someone planning to challenge the dragonlords of Valyria--secretly buying up VS in small quantities and then having a master smith in Qohor make armor. That still doesn't explain the runes though. 

Oldtown and the reach: Isn't it interesting that the one archmaester who is not anti-magic, and is perhaps best suited to short-circuit whatever Euron might try in Oldtown has left?  Maybe Marwyn will be the key to protecting Dany from Euron. Shame he's not there to help keep the citadel safe. If the maesters in general don't like magic, they will not like whatever Euron's up to--though if he phrases it in terms of ditching all the religions in favor of solid, evidence-based knowledge they might actually play right into his hand.

I remember GRRM--I think in discussing what he can do that the show can't--mentioning that Willas Tyrell has an important role to play yet, and I believe Garlan too.  With his leg injury removing him from the field of most things martial, Willas has had nothing to do but improve his mind. He may turn out to be a strategic genius, and as his mother was a Hightower, he will have serious interest in what goes on in Oldtown. A bit fuzzy on my family trees, but through the Hightowers it's possible that Mace's kids have a drop of dragonblood. Anyway, I'd like to see Willas and the Reader team up. As someone pointed out previously in the thread, the Harlaw sigil has not been mentioned as being seen amongst Euron's fleet. And I fully and shamelessly admit that I ship Willas and Asha. ;)

Edited to add: Sphinxes. Plural. Alleras/Sarella and...who? Or do we think these are literal, magical sphinxes?

Edited by Lady Blizzardborn

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15 hours ago, Tucu said:

Thanks for the clarification.

 

14 hours ago, Hos the Hostage said:

Thanks for clarifying, and more thanks for your notes!

Alright, just because this is now the detail I've been freaking out about and I want to just make it clearer (on Twitter, it seems there may be a few other minor inaccuracies in the summary since... we were just taking notes as the reading went), the shadow is the woman/the woman is the shadow. 

There is no woman who is casting a shadow/a woman and a shadow. They are one and the same... well, the shadow is in the form of a woman. 

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3 hours ago, Nights Kings Queen said:

^ lol, can't say I'm surprised. Though Euron = daario, and Euron = the dusky woman were my favourite crackpots.

Well if Pree really is posing as Euron, he could still be in cahoots with him and perhaps Euron really is posing as Daario. If anything this chapter makes it more likely, actually.

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1 minute ago, glass_table_girl said:

 

Alright, just because this is now the detail I've been freaking out about and I want to just make it clearer (on Twitter, it seems there may be a few other minor inaccuracies in the summary since... we were just taking notes as the reading went), the shadow is the woman/the woman is the shadow. 

There is no woman who is casting a shadow/a woman and a shadow. They are one and the same... well, the shadow is in the form of a woman. 

So we're back to Patchface. The shadows come to dance. The shadows come to play.

But really are you absolutely certain about this?  Because the woman being the shadow doesn't really make sense with what we've seen of women and shadows in the series thus far. We've seen women who cast/bind/give birth to shadows, so we've seen women and shadows, but no hint of a woman being a shadow. Also, how does a shadow have fire, or hands of fire? 

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1 minute ago, Brianstorm said:

Well if Pree really is posing as Euron, he could still be in cahoots with him and perhaps Euron really is posing as Daario. If anything this chapter makes it more likely, actually.

You don't think Aeron knows his own brother well enough to spot an imposter? Unless Pree is a Faceless Man, I doubt he could pull that off with Aeron. Victarion sure, but Damphair wouldn't be fooled.

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That the woman with white fire hands is his queen or bride is an assumption. It may be the case, but it may not be, like Mel's vision of Bloodraven and Bran, it could be a case of master and pupil.

2 hours ago, bent branch said:

My impressions:

-Euron is definitely the stone beast breathing shadowfire. There have now been three characters claimed to have been prophesized or "chosen" by the gods. Dany will slay all these lies by being the PtwP. I don't think any other answer is still possible.

He is, and it's greyscale. That's why its a stone beast and why his lips are grey. Lips get the specific mention because his lips are what will blow the horn, his great leap from the tower to fly. And the beast is Drogon. Blood for fire, fire for blood. Euron's blood will be corrupted by greyscale, and when he blows the horn so too will become Drogon's. The treason for blood, Drogon becomes stone, the mount to dread, and the second head of the dragon.

Then Dany needs to find the third head, to slay the lie, to bring forth lightbringer, to wake the dragon from stone to save the world from the Others.

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3 hours ago, Nights Kings Queen said:

I've missed some of the comments here, so sorry if this has been asked or answered, but does this chapter officially debunk the Euron = Daario theory?

Pretty much yes (thankfully).

3 hours ago, Nights Kings Queen said:

^ lol, can't say I'm surprised. Though Euron = daario, and Euron = the dusky woman were my favourite crackpots.

Yes! Especially the latter! I actually want it true just so tosee how it fuck up Victarion. :lol:

Edited by The Arthur Smith

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1 hour ago, Arataniello said:

It will need to be confirmed or denied by someone who was there.  I read it, and it doesn't sound like GRRM, tbh (but I was not at the reading).

That sounds just like him to me. I imagine someone recorded it and then transcribed it later.  Awesome chapter.

Edited by Carey Snow

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8 hours ago, Veltigar said:

I wonder if House Royce took the inspiration for their runic armour from these Valyrian-magic-infused sets of armour? 

Replying to myself because I like to talk to myself :P 

Throwing a real crackpot out there, but what if House Royce actually owns a set of Valyrian steel armour? So, instead of having made a bronze copy of a suit of Valyrian steel armour, they somehow acquired the real deal and covered it up with bronze to disguise their theft from the dragonlords?

3 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

No one else is worthy of the Horn of Winter.

Fuck, I hadn't even thought of that! Yet another reason why an attack on Oldtown would be interesting from a story PoV. If the horn changes hands during the fight, that could have major reprecussions further along the line.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Whether Euron actually wants magical artifacts and stuff kept in the Citadel and the Hightower remains to be seen. It clearly wasn't his original plan to go there. And the Mander isn't close to Oldtown. If he wanted to raid deep into the Reach he would have to move part/most of his navy back to the Shields.

 

Yeah, total brainfart on my part. I was talking about the Honeywine River flowing from Brightwater Keep to Oldtown :) 

He could attack a whole new part of the Reach if he controls the Honeywine. And if both the Shield islands and Oldtown are in his hands, the Tyrells will have to choose. If they go after Oldtown, Euron could use his advantage in mobility to send ships down the Mander from the shield islands, attack Highgarden (or simply pass by and raid as far as Bitterbridge).

If they choose to go for the Shield Islands, they will anger many Reachlords, seeing how Oldtown is the pearl of their region and a place of momentous symbolic importance. They would also open themselves up to a devestating attack from the rear. The Ironborn on the Shield Islands could block them from entrying the bay, while the Ironborn could use the Honeywine to move as close to the Mander as possible and then carry their ships to the Mander, like Harwyn Hoare once did in the Riverlands. 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, the Targaryens should have known how to make or have had access to Valyrian steel. My guess still is that they simply could no longer afford producing it after the Doom because they could not afford so many blood sacrifices. They still had dragons, so the lack of dragonfire clearly wasn't the problem.

Slaves are cheap though, it doesn't seem like that should be a problem. Or do you think the creation of VS calls for the blood of Old Valyria itself?

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:r

Y

As to Euron:

I can't but stop thinking about Harlon Greyjoy's greyscale sickness. Could Euron have been infected by it, too? And somehow Bloodraven and/or the opening of the third eye has cured him (at least in a sense)? I mean, in a sense it seems to have been Bloodraven/the awakening of the greenseer potential that brought Bran back from the brink of death. Perhaps something similar can happen with greyscale.

A mundane way for Euron to have had the necessary near death experience could have been from a drowning ceremony gone awry. Perhaps he was drowned again for some reason and something went wrong with the reanimation? If he was out for a while, got his BR vision and then came back with his third eye open, 'rising harder and stronger' might have gotten a whole new connotation for him. 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As to Jaqen and his goals:

I think we already know what he is after - that dreadful blood-soaked tome called 'Blood and Fire' or 'The Death of Dragons'. That was the book mention by Tyrion in ADwD and I'm pretty sure this book is the reason why Jaqen wanted to acquire one of the keys of the archmaesters. Which he already has, so there might be little reason for him to linger in Oldtown all that long unless he has something else to do in the city.

Yeah, I agree. Imo there are only two possible reasons why he chose to stuck around. Either he's an agent of Euron, waiting for the right opportunity to let the Ironborn in or he has troubles completing his assignment. The Citadel probably has magic and other defences put in place to protect it's most valuable treasures. Surely 'The Death of Dragons'  is one of those, seeing how it was used to kill the last of the dragons.

Perhaps the defences are so good even a FM has trouble getting to them. In that case, a succesful Ironborn attack might be just what Jaqen needs. The Maesters would be forced to evacuate their treasures to safety, temporarily moving them from the FMproof vault, allowing Jaqen to swoop in and steal them. That would also be a great opportunity for an exciting Samwell PoV. If he's smackdab in the middle of fleeing maesters, a FM on a killing spree, bloodcrazed Ironborn and Bloody mummers, he could plausibly loose the horn of winter, while somehow succeeding in keeping the book out of Jaqen's hands.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with the Ironborn. But I could be wrong.

I think the links between the FM, Euron and the Others are becoming clearer and clearer. They might not be in a direct alliance, but they certainly feed into each others plans if you ask me. 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Veltigar

You make a good case as to Euron's reasons why an attack on Oldtown might make sense. But then, such a panic and stuff could also lead to the Oldtowners and Hightowers to bend the knee. If Euron crushes the Redwyne Fleet half of the southern Reach might consider bending the knee a better option than to continue the fight. There is a hint that the Reach and Oldtown are very important for the unity of the Realm in general. Sam is pretty concerned about the hate the Iron Throne/Cersei get in AFfC because of their non-assistance, so the Hightowers choosing some Ironborn pretender and abandoning the Iron Throne could be a major blow to the idea of a united Realm.

I'm not entirely convinced by that. The panic and dread I described would mainly come about because the inhabitants realize that the Ironborn are inside the city. Certainly, the inhabitants of Oldtown would be frightened of taking to the seas after Euron's victory over the Redwynes, but I still think they'd feel safe behind their formidable walls.

After all, Ironborn taking names and winning battles at sea isn't exactly anything new to them. Everyone knows they are great sailors, they just have some new tricks now. However, I think the Oldtowners would believe that the Ironborn still wouldn't be capable of besieging a well-defended, fortified city like Oldtown. Especially with Leyton and his mad daughter guarding the city with their own magic, rendering the threat of Euron's own magic less immediatie. I imagine the Oldtowners thinking that, if f they just keep away from the seas, they'll be able to outlast the Ironborn onslaught untill the Realm is ready to put those Iron bastards back into place. 

I also feel like neither party has much to gain from bending the knee. The Oldtowners don't get safety, because Euron would supposedly demand free entry for his forces, which could turn into a sack at a moment's notice. They also don't get their trade back, because as long as the reavers rule the waves there, no one would dare enter those waters to trade with the Hightowers. And Euron doesn't gain anything either. The Reachlings would definitely not come to his aid if he were to call upon them (e.g. Leyton Hightower is likely to just sit on his ass in case such a plea comes). Not sacking Oldtown will probably allow them to rebuild their fleet, posing a threat to Euron's rule in the future. Euron can't get his hand on any magic crap if he doesn't attack the city. Diplomacy also means that Euron isn't able to gain as much glory as he would if he captured the city (and specifically the Hightower). And to cap it all off, he just enjoys the bloodshed more I think

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The main reason why I don't think a Sack on Conquest of Oldtown is likely in the near future is because I expect Sam to spend more than a few chapters in the city and the Citadel. I mean, George has set this up as a very interesting learning experience/investigation kind of thing with Fake-Pate, Alleras-Sarella, and Lazy Leo hanging out with Sam, and these guys could do a lot of interesting stuff before things change considerably. Not to mention the expected Sam-Hightower interactions cited above (we could even meet the famous Alekyne Florent).

Well, I don't know about that. I think GRRM can do a lot with say two or three chapters. Like, one chapter establishing his bond with Sarella, Gilly's new position, basically introducing all the players in that setting and the rest dealing with the progression of the Ironborn attack, with the final one showing us the exodus from Oldtown. After that, a couple of Sam chapters on the run or at the new court he'll wind up (most likely either that of his father or that of Faegon) and we'll be done for Winds :) 

Also, Lazy Leo is going to die :P I don't have any foreshadowing to base that claim on, but he just sets my spidey deathsense tingling :P 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We should also not overestimate his need to keep his men happy. If Euron successfully crushes the Redwynes he'll become the living god he is pretending to be. 

I don't know, an important reason for the Iron Islanders to follow him is his largesse. You'd think that taking the Shield Islands (which was the first time anyone did that in like 2000 years if I'm not mistaken?), would be enough to follow him through hell and back again, but they still demanded that he stick to attacking the Reach instead of going for Meereen.

The same would apply here I reckon. With the power of magic on their side, they'd feel more certain of ultimate victory than ever. Why wouldn't they go for Oldtown, that coveted prize and after that the rest of the Reach. After all, Euron promised them the Arbor, Oldtown, Highgarden and Lannisport. It seems to me like he needs to uphold his promises in the eyes of the victorydrunk Ironborn. And I do think it's important for his small force to stay on the initiative. He needs to keep the Reachlords busy, so that they can't pool their resources together to turn back his iron tide.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But then, if you want to keep your men occupied why not move your ships a few leagues farther east, crush the Planky Town, take Sunspear and the Water Gardens, and kill Doran and Trystane Martell? That could work, too. Dorne was stupid enough to send the bulk of its strength into the mountains and by that time they might already have committed themselves to Aegon's cause - which could easily trigger a reaction from Euron.

That's a very interesting possibility. I have long held the belief that Doran needs to be taken out of the picture, in order to let Arianne's reign of stupid begin. If he's killed by Ironborn that would sit rather nice. I do think there are a couple of reasons why that is not the path he'll choose to walk right away:

Firstly, Sunspear is a lesser prize in all aspects of the word. Oldtown brings much more rewards with it. Secondly, Sunspear imo wouldn't warrant all Euron's ships or even most of them. I guess that, if he wanted to, he could probably take Sunspear with a pretty small amount of ships. Especially now that all those Dornish warriors are bound up in the passes (does Euron know that by the way?).  Fourthly, I think he would not directly wish to provoke Dorne. You wondered why GRRM had Euron pass over the Westerlands, aside from future Cersei/Euron plots, I think a likely reason is that Euron also seems hellbent on creating all out war on the mainland (Aeron's dwarf vision seems good proof of that). A unified Reach stands in the way of that, because it is powerful enough to keep the other kingdoms at bay unless some of them team up. If he attacks Dorne, he drives them into the arms of the Reach, making the Reach stronger again and doing the exact opposite of softening the realm up for his eventual take-over. It would be more in his interest to further weaken the Reach (by attacking Oldtown or Highgarden) and hope for Dornish raiders to use the chaos of his assaults to also launch an attack on the Reach, just like in the preconquest days (e.g. Starfire's attack sack of Oldtown comes to mind).

Obviously, if due to the Faegonplot the Dornish come out to reinforce whatever Reachlords have flocked to Faegon's banner, he might still attack Sunspear. That seems like a valuable suggestion. 

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I had an alternate take on that. I posited that the rat-faced dwarves were Frey men defiling Catelyn's body before throwing it in the river. House Frey would absolutely side with Euron (most of them anyway) and they would be pleased as punch to revel in King's Landing as men and women of consequence instead of underlings from the Riverlands.  Just a thought.

The thing is, I think GRRM is usually more specific in his imagery, if he meant to refer to the Freys, he would have descrived the dwarves as ferret-faced. Personally, I also think the Freys will not be in a position to side with Euron. Their demise is written in the stars and it will happen pretty soon imo. I can't imagine that they'd stick around for long enough to bend the knee to Euron :) 

2 hours ago, bent branch said:

The ships that went missing from Vicky's fleet were probably ordered to turn around and attack the Redwyne fleet from the rear

You aren't the first to suggest this, but it seems very unlikely to me. The Iron Fleet explicitedly belongs to Victarion loyalists. It would be strange if they chose to betray Vick all of a sudden. And then there is the question of coordination. How would they know when to break away from Vick's main column at exactly the right time to attack the Redwyne's in the rear? Even if they were equipped with glass candles to communicate with Euron, that would be hard, seeing that they would also need detailed intell on the movements of the Redwyne's. From a practical PoV it just seems unfeasible, while the storm explanation given in the novel is very plausible. 

2 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Bloat wouldn't change the story if you take it out. Taking Euron out seems like it'll completely change the endgame 

Yeah, I agree. I have stopped watching the show, but I wonder how they are going to cope, seeing how they botch everything related to the Iron Islands so far. 

Edited by Veltigar

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13 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

You don't think Aeron knows his own brother well enough to spot an imposter? Unless Pree is a Faceless Man, I doubt he could pull that off with Aeron. Victarion sure, but Damphair wouldn't be fooled.

Well impersonation doesn't seem to fit in with their magic as far as we know, but this could be why he's drinking the Shade so heavily. It's unlikely but it's more logical than Euron being able to sail back and forth from the II and SB so quickly at the least.

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This chapter is f**** up and creepy but I wouldn't have it any other way. I just knew Damphair's chapters were going to take a level in awesome in TWOW.

Anyway, I really hope he lasts more than just two chapters like people are suggesting.

Also, I'm really starting to wonder how the hell Westeros is going to survive the Others and the second Long Night. I mean seriously with all the destruction caused by the WOT5K and now on top of that all the destruction that will be caused by Stannis vs. Boltons in the North and Aegon (+ the Faith) vs. Dany vs. Lannisters vs. Greyjoys in the south how in the world is whoever's left going to be able to stop the Others realistically speaking? Especially if Dany leaves behind in Essos a trail of sacked Free Cities and with the Riverlands still in anarchy?

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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Just a thought, but I wonder if it is possible that Euron has encountered the Cinnamon Wind, or if Marwyn got out of Oldtown before Euron got too close. Marwyn seems like the sort who would have a pretty good understanding of what is going on around Euron.

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