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Free Northman Reborn

[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

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On May 29, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

So I'm hearing some really intense reports from George's Balticon reading of the Damphair chapter from Winds.

Wow. If the reports are accurate, it contains loads of massive plot details. Enough to influence a number of theories and provide lots of food for discussion.

I don't want to quote secondhand reports until they are confirmed, but if true, it gives us great insight into what Euron is up to and what's been happening in the Reach since we last heard from there.

And man, some messed up cruelty there too. Anyway, just wanted to get the discussion going. Waiting for some confirmed updates.

 

I have a very complete collaborative reading on my site. I'd post it, but we still need to refine it, but I'm happy to send a link to anyone who wants to start reading the recaps. We're just helping each other fill in blanks, but I'm comfortable enough to share what we have.

 

Otherwise I'd just post the whole recap here.

 

ETA: I was at the reading, I'm  a primary source. ;)

Edited by Mother of Dragons

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On 5/29/2016 at 8:21 AM, Ran said:

A more detailed report here, compiled by several people.

Dang, this looks dark. Not really what I signed up for when I got into ASOIAF lol. But it sure is interesting.

I really like the idea that Euron was a failed apprentice of Bloodraven. It makes a lot of sense.

"When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly,"

That's pretty solid evidence in my opinion.

Euron's megalomania seems unparalleled by any other King so far. He is playing his own game, and in His game there are literally no rules. Looks like he is going to try and use the FM, Dany and perhaps even the Others, to accomplish the goal of ruling all of Westeros and the oceans. Will it blow up in his face? Perhaps...

Do you think Euron will be the big bad? It's interesting that Martin introduced him so late in the narrative if that is so.

Also, do you think after making us hate Euron Martin will try and give him a redemptive arc like he has done with Jamie and Theon, or is Euron to nasty?

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21 minutes ago, Arataniello said:

I vaguely remember  a comment by GRRM about there being two chapters of Aeron moved out of aDwD - if correct, it may be that there is only one more Aeron chapter (covering a naval battle?) before we see the last of him.

One really wonders who advised George on this whole stuff. I mean, ADwD had no Euron in it. Nada. And very people tried to keep up the belief that this guy was dangerous and mattered despite the fact that Moqorro's vision very much indicated it.

If there were connected Samwell chapters planned/unwritten at the time of publication then it makes sense why the battle was left out of ADwD but at least Aeron 1 would have been a nice and fitting addition to ADwD. It didn't begin a new story it continued the story of Aeron and Euron as it was begun in AFfC

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There has been feelings posted that this chapter might not of been grrms. If so, and this is FF, I'd read whatever she/he has to offer up next.

What are the candidates for the Castle that DH sees burning? I was very surprised to see the CE molestation theories prove true in straight forward fashion. TWoW should be epic.

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1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I respectfully disagree. If they were just for death, any death, all-death-all-the-time, then Arya would not have been punished for offing Dareon

You know, if you are running a zealot death cult, it's important that your soldiers obey your rule at all time. For instance, if an IS-militant kills an American soldier, eventhough his emir told him not too, the militant would be punished because he disobeyed a direct order and not because he killed the soldier.  Obedience goes above all. In the same vein, Arya wasn't punished for killing Daeron, she was punished because she disobeyed her orders (and that punishment happened to further her training, so yeah big deal that). 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 and they wouldn't have the rule about not having to kill someone you've met.

There is a very rational explanation for that rule. It's about making sure that conflicting loyalties don't compromise their members loyalty to the FM order. They try (and usually probably succeed) in wiping away the identity of their individual members until they become truly 'faceless' (i.e. without their own identity). If they are sent out to kill a loved one however, the powerful emotions that come from that might reverse that identity-destroying process and lead some of their soldiers to come back to their senses. Best to avoid such dilemma's and keep your soldiers uncompromised.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The waif had no life to speak of. Looking like a child for the rest of her life, in that world, would have guaranteed a lousy future for her. At the HOBAW she lived in relative security and comfort and even learned some useful things.

Yeah, I'm sure that becoming the property of a fanatical death cult beats staying at home with her nobleborn, loving, wealthy  father :P She must be thrilled, having learned all those new ways to kill people, it must have been such a great experience! She would not have wanted to miss that for the world!

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 but they decide whether or not to take the paying jobs on a case-by-case basis, and they make people give up something it hurts to give up in payment so that their clients aren't taking "the gift" lightly.

The only criteria, as the Waif's story clearly shows, is whether or not a person is willing to pay the price the FM demand. The Waif's stepmother was unwilling, which lead to her botched DIY assassination attempt. The waif's father however, was prepared. Nowhere in that story is any other justification given. They do not care what motive you have, as long as you pay. Don't forget, the first FM brought death to both master and slave alike. 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It IS clearly established that there's a great deal we still don't know about them. 

jep, true.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

But we do know they take death very seriously, and if as you say they just want to give the gift to everyone, 

They see death as the natural order of things and as a merciful end to all suffering. If that's not a messianistic belief, which should be given to all, I don't know what is.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

But we do know they take death very seriously, and if as you say they just want to give the gift to everyone, why would they ally with a force that denies the sanctity of death by bringing the dead back as disposable infantry? Seems to me they'd be against that.

The Others don't actually bring people back from the dead. Otherwise every wight would be like Berric Dondarrion. Wights are chuncks of animated meat, without a consciousness of their own and unable to feel pain. The Others just use the empty shell as a tool, similar to how the FM use dead people's faces as a mask. You might say that both the FM and the Others have a similarly pragmatic approach to recycling. 

Spoiler

Strange similarity being the role of memories. Wights have no consciousness, but their memories can still be used. Just like the faces of the dead people the FM use still contain the memories of their original owners.

 

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1 minute ago, jobmartell said:

What are the candidates for the Castle that DH sees burning? I was very surprised to see the CE molestation theories prove true in straight forward fashion. TWoW should be epic.

According to AngryGotfan's write-up, it's an unimportant castle of a small island in front of the Arbor. 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One really wonders who advised George on this whole stuff. I mean, ADwD had no Euron in it. Nada.

At the time, I would not have liked it, but I wonder if it wouldn't have been better if GRRM waited like another year or two to release ADWD. I think the endresult would have been so much more satisfying.

All in all, when GRRM finishes the series and still has the heart to do it, he should probably re-edit AFFC, ADWD and the first part of TWOW into some new continuity. I truly think that would be a much better reading experience.

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4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It's interesting that there are no dragons in Aeron's vision of Euron on the throne. Someone did post about the two times "pale fire" has been used in the text, one of which indicating Viserion.  Since dragons are gender neutral/flexible, Viserion could be female, but more likely if the pale fire is Viserion then the woman is his rider and it isn't Dany. Still, I would think if there was a dragon in the vision, Aeron would have seen a dragon. They're kind of hard to miss.

Hmm, earlier on in this thread, I suggested:

It doesn't have to be a literal woman. It could just be a representation of something else, such as the Others, a faction, the magic itself, or even a dragon (although I guess Dany's dragons are all male)...

I missed the fact that dragons are gender neutral. Every reference I can find indicates that Viserion is male, but supposing he/she is gender neutral, then the woman may very well be Viserion. I think I like that theory best of all.

Well, except that we all know that Viserion will be Tyrion's dragon... Maybe it's Rhaegal? But then maybe white fire doesn't fit?

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32 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

According to AngryGotfan's write-up, it's an unimportant castle of a small island in front of the Arbor. 

At the time, I would not have liked it, but I wonder if it wouldn't have been better if GRRM waited like another year or two to release ADWD. I think the endresult would have been so much more satisfying.

All in all, when GRRM finishes the series and still has the heart to do it, he should probably re-edit AFFC, ADWD and the first part of TWOW into some new continuity. I truly think that would be a much better reading experience.

From what we have heard and what I still remember there was talk about the editors suggesting pushing stuff in the next book. I think Anne Groell was responsible (or partly responsible) for the scrapping of the Arianne chapters and in general for suggesting to move the battles to the next book.

If stuff is reshuffled again one should consider moving the AFfC stuff back into ASoS where it belongs chronologically (early Ironborn and Dorne chapters) and subsequently perhaps pulling the battle chapters from TWoW into a combined AFfC/ADwD (which already exists in various versions).

But I'm actually pretty fine with a lot of the endings there - perhaps the battle of Meereen could fit nicely into ADwD. But the Pink Letter works better as a concept if we don't know yet what has happened to Stannis (or that the Karstark betrayal has been revealed).

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13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

From what we have heard and what I still remember there was talk about the editors suggesting pushing stuff in the next book. I think Anne Groell was responsible (or partly responsible) for the scrapping of the Arianne chapters and in general for suggesting to move the battles to the next book.

If stuff is reshuffled again one should consider moving the AFfC stuff back into ASoS where it belongs chronologically (early Ironborn and Dorne chapters) and subsequently perhaps pulling the battle chapters from TWoW into a combined AFfC/ADwD (which already exists in various versions).

But I'm actually pretty fine with a lot of the endings there - perhaps the battle of Meereen could fit nicely into ADwD. But the Pink Letter works better as a concept if we don't know yet what has happened to Stannis (or that the Karstark betrayal has been revealed).

To be honest imo, Aeron's chapter should have been the final in ADWD just for cliffhanger and establishment of Euron's storyline. It seems like Aeron has meet his death match in the chapter and it would kinda be a waste to just move his to Winds, and then get kill off.

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59 minutes ago, House Southwell said:

Do you think Euron will be the big bad? It's interesting that Martin introduced him so late in the narrative if that is so.

 

Considering his action and plan, definitely. Probably the biggest antagonist of them all and it helps that he's the only villain who uses magic.

1 hour ago, House Southwell said:

Also, do you think after making us hate Euron Martin will try and give him a redemptive arc like he has done with Jamie and Theon, or is Euron to nasty?

Hahahaha. I'm hope you're joking considering how many atrocities Euron made and th fact that he's batshit insane to deserve redemption. Characters like him (ex. Ramsay) are not warrant of redemption compare to someone like Jaime and Theon.

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Just now, The Arthur Smith said:

To be honest imo, Aeron's chapter should have been the final in ADWD just for cliffhanger and establishment of Euron's storyline. It seems like Aeron has meet his death match in the chapter and it would kinda be a waste to just move his to Winds, and then get kill off.

This is why I've speculated above that he might survive. Or not. If George intends to kill him in the battle then the question might have been whether to put the battle partially (until Aeron died in his next chapter) in there or not. And they might have decided to not do that if we get the other half of the battle and its conclusion from complementary (and back then unwritten) Samwell chapters.

A lot of this shuffling around stuff seems to be connected to mundane matters like the size of the book and stuff. But the book wouldn't have physically exploded if they had added another 100-200 pages. And you can always use thinner paper and stuff.

1 minute ago, The Arthur Smith said:

Hahahaha. I'm hope you're joking considering how many atrocities Euron made and th fact that he's batshit insane to deserve redemption. Characters like him (ex. Ramsay) are not warrant of redemption compare to someone like Jaime and Theon.

Actually, it seems young Euron felt guilty for a short while after murdering Harlon. But when he challenged the god(s) to smite him down and (surprisingly) he quite correctly concluded that the gods either don't exist or do not care.

@Rhaenys_Targaryen & other timeline-obsessed people:

I think we got some sort of hint towards the age of the Greyjoy brothers in the chapter because Euron mentions that he was usually drunk when he came visiting Aeron and Urrigon. That most likely suggests that Euron was at least in his mid-teens by that time, perhaps even near his twentieth nameday, putting more than a bunch of years between him and his younger brothers.

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29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

From what we have heard and what I still remember there was talk about the editors suggesting pushing stuff in the next book. I think Anne Groell was responsible (or partly responsible) for the scrapping of the Arianne chapters and in general for suggesting to move the battles to the next book.

They were pretty much at the limit of what could be published, so there wasn't much else to do, unless GRRM could be convinced to remove or majorly edit down the earlier chapters.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This is why I've speculated above that he might survive. Or not. If George intends to kill him in the battle then the question might have been whether to put the battle partially (until Aeron died in his next chapter) in there or not. And they might have decided to not do that if we get the other half of the battle and its conclusion from complementary (and back then unwritten) Samwell chapters.

A lot of this shuffling around stuff seems to be connected to mundane matters like the size of the book and stuff. But the book wouldn't have physically exploded if they had added another 100-200 pages. And you can always use thinner paper and stuff.

We usually don't get POV's details on battles and knowing Euron's battle with the Redwynes is less important, Aeron chances of dying are pretty high.

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, it seems young Euron felt guilty for a short while after murdering Harlon. But when he challenged the god(s) to smite him down and (surprisingly) he quite correctly concluded that the gods either don't exist or do not care.

I don't know about that. Euron is not the type to feel genuinely care for his family. Most likely cause Harlon is his first brother kill and Euron went off to piss and asked the gods to punish him just so to wash away the blame, to make himself less responsible and more heartless.

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58 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

You know, if you are running a zealot death cult, it's important that your soldiers obey your rule at all time. For instance, if an IS-militant kills an American soldier, even though his emir told him not too, the militant would be punished because he disobeyed a direct order and not because he killed the soldier.  Obedience goes above all. In the same vein, Arya wasn't punished for killing Daeron, she was punished because she disobeyed her orders (and that punishment happened to further her training, so yeah big deal that). 

There is a very rational explanation for that rule. It's about making sure that conflicting loyalties don't compromise their members loyalty to the FM order. They try (and usually probably succeed) in wiping away the identity of their individual members until they become truly 'faceless' (i.e. without their own identity). If they are sent out to kill a loved one however, the powerful emotions that come from that might reverse that identity-destroying process and lead some of their soldiers to come back to their senses. Best to avoid such dilemma's and keep your soldiers uncompromised.

Yeah, I'm sure that becoming the property of a fanatical death cult beats staying at home with her nobleborn, loving, wealthy  father :P She must be thrilled, having learned all those new ways to kill people, it must have been such a great experience! She would not have wanted to miss that for the world!

The only criteria, as the Waif's story clearly shows, is whether or not a person is willing to pay the price the FM demand. The Waif's stepmother was unwilling, which lead to her botched DIY assassination attempt. The waif's father however, was prepared. Nowhere in that story is any other justification given. They do not care what motive you have, as long as you pay. Don't forget, the first FM brought death to both master and slave alike. 

They see death as the natural order of things and as a merciful end to all suffering. If that's not a messianistic belief, which should be given to all, I don't know what is.

The Others don't actually bring people back from the dead. Otherwise every wight would be like Berric Dondarrion. Wights are chuncks of animated meat, without a consciousness of their own and unable to feel pain. The Others just use the empty shell as a tool, similar to how the FM use dead people's faces as a mask. You might say that both the FM and the Others have a similarly pragmatic approach to recycling. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Strange similarity being the role of memories. Wights have no consciousness, but their memories can still be used. Just like the faces of the dead people the FM use still contain the memories of their original owners.

 

Not the same thing. You're talking about disobeying a direct order. Arya was never told not to kill Daeron. But Arya's killing of Daeron was an indication that she's still Arya Stark. So I'll agree that the punishment might not have been about killing a non-mark. After all, Pate was obviously not a mark and he got liquidated to facilitate a job. In general it seems like the FM are allowed a great deal of creative freedom. Doesn't seem like the Kindly Man or anyone else is micromanaging the fully-trained operatives. Then again, their discipline is already unquestioned.

It's about more than that. Every member of the crew on the ship that took Arya to Braavos made sure she knew their names. They aren't loved ones, and she has no reason to be particularly loyal to them, yet she could refuse an assignment to kill anyone on that boat. If she's truly become "no one" crew members on ships should not bring up loyalty issues.  I'd agree completely if it were just about loved ones, but clearly it isn't. 

What happens after loving, nobleborn father is dead?  Is there any guarantee that her siblings or other relatives would care for her?  Marriage prospects would be bleak, she wouldn't have a job because nobleborn women don't.  It's not about hopes and dreams and who is thrilled with what. Her being given to them is not a tragedy. No it's not a cushy wonderland, but it's a life and it's a safe one. If her father had refused, she might have ended up dead as her step-mother continued to poison her, or an orphan if her father killed his wife himself. This is a Martin series. There wasn't going to be a happy ending to that situation.
 

The Waif's story is the Waif's story. It doesn't tell us everything. It tells us what happened in that instance. And from what the Waif says in that chapter it sounds like her father offered her and his wealth freely. She doesn't say that the FM demanded that. It specifically says "...he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many-Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father's wife received the gift." The ALL of his wealth being a lie, because it was only two-thirds that he offered...but the rest was true.

Chances are the step-mother was not someone the FM cared about one way or another, but if asked to kill someone important to the organization what do you think they're response would be?  Valar morghulis? That might get in the way with the dohaerising of the valar in question. Jaqen tells Arya that three lives are owed because she saved him and those other two guys. They all three would have died if not for her intervention. So clearly that's another example of how big a deal death is to them. But there's no money in that. So in a way that offer of three lives taken is purer in a religious sense than turning a profit from killing people.

Precisely. An end to suffering. Not everyone is suffering.  And they couldn't possibly argue that death by poison or other forms of assassination is natural, even though death in general is. They're messing with nature by offing people, so there's something else going on.  If their goal was really to kill everyone on Planetos, how come they haven't managed to accomplish that in the thousands of years they've been in existence? They're older than Braavos, going back to before the Doom. You'd think between dragons and poisons they could have knocked everybody out by now. And how come they charge so much? If death is natural and a gift, it should technically be free. The money angle muddies the waters. And the FM curiously don't seem to desire death for themselves. Most real-life death cults end up nowhere...because they kill themselves and no one is left to carry on the message.

The first FM felt he was the instrument of the Many-Faced God, doing his work, but he didn't set out to give the gift to everyone...he didn't need to, because most people were going to die whether he did anything about it or not. He was selective. We know this because he wasn't caught and killed before passing his legacy on to others. The first FM didn't charge so far as we know.  A pure, religious motive would be like Mel's--she burns people out in the open. She doesn't take multiple other people's identities to secretly kill.

So far as we know. I mean we know there doesn't seem to be a consciousness, but we don't know that they can't feel pain. Without a wight POV our knowledge is somewhat limited. It's still a defiling of death. So I still think the FM would have a problem with it. Now with the R'hllorists actually bringing people back to an extent, the FM could make a killing...so to speak...with repeat business. But back to the Others, they kill the people and animals in what might be considered an unnatural way before turning them into Wights. So the Others could be seen as competition for the FM...especially since they don't charge. 

:lmao:Recycling! :lmao: So it is really all an allegory for environmental issues. ;) 

Excellent point on the hidden contents.

Here's a crazy thought that brings us back to Euron...what if the woman/shadow is the Mad Maid come out of the tower?

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@Veltigar

Not sure the Honeywine is deed enough to be navigable up to its headwaters. But in any case - to try to do that the Ironborn would first have to take and hold Oldtown. The rivers flow across the city, after all.

As to any Horn of Winter stuff:

Come on, the idea that a horn blown down in the South will have any effect up at the Wall is just nonsense. We know from TWoIaF that the Horn of Joramun is causing an earthquake, presumably in the region in which its magical sound is actually heard. That means the Horn of Winter will have to be blown near the Wall and presumably by some guy who wants to bring down the Wall. It could turn out to be the Weeper or one of the Others. After all, they might have secured that horn long ago for their own ends.

My idea about Valyrian steel is that you need about ten blood sacrifices for a dagger and a hundred normals sword and, say, five hundred for a great sword like Ice. If that's the case then slaves might still be cheap but it might be both insane and very risky to kill hundreds and thousands of people for this kind of thing if you no longer have powerful sorceries and hundreds or thousands of dragons at your disposal.

I see no reason for the assumption that there might be an alliance between the Faceless Men and Euron. In fact, if Euron can break warlocks he might even have been able to acquire his own pet Faceless Man - the guy who killed Balon (and who might actually be the Dusky Woman). I know, Faceless Men should be very tough but Euron could have used magic. And we don't yet know what you can do to a mind with magic in this world.

I'm actually more inclined to believe that Pate-Jaqen will stick around because he'll be interested in Sam's story. My personal guess is that Jaqen either works for Varys/Illyrio (Varys had the best opportunity to plant or put a Faceless Man in the dungeons of the Red Keep) or is on a solo mission for the House of Black and White itself. If the latter is the case this could tie back into Arya's own Faceless Girl story - which might eventually lead to her first real assignment - assassinating Daenerys Targaryen.

I really don't see any links between Euron, the Others, and the FM. The Others are very alien, Euron is just a cruel and ambitious mortal guy (with interesting delusions of grandeur), and the Faceless Men are an assassin cult who worships death.

I think the news about the defeat of the Redwyne fleet (especially if Euron allows some ships to escape to spread the tale) will be able to drive the people in the Reach to a frenzy. As you say - Euron is different. He might want to inform everybody how different he is so that he can conquer without having to fight. Just look how he conquered his Ironborn. The man knows when the smile, when the threaten, when to kill, and when to flatter.

In the light of such a victory there is little chance that Euron would be considered no vital threat to Oldtown itself. If he can sink/defeat 200+ huge war galleys without suffering major losses himself (presumably) then (or so people might think) stone walls might be no match for him, either. Hence the idea that the Hightowers might be severely pushed to bend the knee or offer some sort of peace deal.

Remember, the Hightowers are not known for the martial prowess or their stiff knees. They have always been opportunists (save when they tried to take over the Realm but even then they used smiles and marriages, not force).

Well, after his victory over the Redwynes Euron would make the decisions, not the Ironborn. If he pulls such a thing off they will worship him as their living god or, well, die. And they will only attack Oldtown if Euron wants to attack the city. Could be he wants to do that, but it is just as likely that he'll just sack the Arbor (which he hasn't done yet!) and then be off to make preparations to take the Iron Throne.

If Cersei were to join him around that time - say, because he has decided to contact her via raven and Qyburn in the wake of Pycelle's death - they could begin some interesting scheme to take KL (back).

Not to mention that Euron might decide to target Sunspear and Dorne pretty quickly after he has sacked the Arbor - which most likely will be next target after the Redwyne fleet is crushed. By this time Euron should have news about Aegon and be (considerably) irritated about that. Not to mention that whatever news he gets about Daenerys might be less than promising.

 

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As to any Horn of Winter stuff:

Come on, the idea that a horn blown down in the South will have any effect up at the Wall is just nonsense. We know from TWoIaF that the Horn of Joramun is causing an earthquake, presumably in the region in which its magical sound is actually heard. That means the Horn of Winter will have to be blown near the Wall and presumably by some guy who wants to bring down the Wall. It could turn out to be the Weeper or one of the Others. After all, they might have secured that horn long ago for their own ends.

 

I´m curious where you get that from.

 

Twoiaf in fact says otherwise:

And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water, until only a few bare rocky islands remained above the waves. The Summer Sea joined the narrow sea, and the bridge between Essos and Westeros vanished for all time.

So if the Horn of Joramun was used for the breaking of the arm of Dorne and the hammer of waters (and probably the tsunami that hit the Iron Islands before they were islands), then it shows it triggers a world catastrophy, not a focalized event close to the horn.

Edited by LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

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1 minute ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

I´m curious where you get that from.

 

Twoiaf in fact says otherwise:

And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water, until only a few bare rocky islands remained above the waves. The Summer Sea joined the narrow sea, and the bridge between Essos and Westeros vanished for all time.

 

Who said anything about the Breaking having anything to do with the Horn of Winter. And even if it did (for some strange reason) there is also talk about blood sacrifice engulfing the entire continent in an earthquake. If blowing the horn is going to have such an effect without all those spells and blood sacrifices then we can not only kiss the Wall goodbye but also all the castles in Westeros - because none of them is going to withstand a serious earthquake.

That would only make sense if only that horn would be able to wake the giants in the earth - and there is no reason to believe that.

Besides, we do know that this horn is also called 'the Horn of Joramun' and that guy was the first King-beyond-the-Wall which strongly suggests he lived and died in the lands beyond the Wall. Which means the Others could have found said horn a long time ago, possibly in Joramun's very own grave.

After all, we know from Ygritte that Mance was looking for it, too. Suggesting that the free folk for some reason also believed that horn was near their home turf, not down south near or on the Isle of Faces.

If you ask me, then this whole hornblowing stuff in Aeron's dreams of Euron are just reflections of echoes of him witnessing the blowing of Dragonbinder on Old Wyk. They are not prophetic visions foretelling that Euron is going to play some other special horns.

By the way - we get way too much hornblowing stuff in that series and far too little payoff for all of that. Dragonbinder still has to do something meaningful, and the Horn of Joramun still has to be found. Hell, I don't even recall whether Tormund has ever blown a horn on screen.

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13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Who said anything about the Breaking having anything to do with the Horn of Winter. And even if it did (for some strange reason)

Strange reason? i mean, the horn is said to "wake the giants of the earth".. and the breaking of the arm is described exactly the same. Can the author be less subtle than that?

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there is also talk about blood sacrifice engulfing the entire continent in an earthquake. If blowing the horn is going to have such an effect without all those spells and blood sacrifices then we can not only kiss the Wall goodbye but also all the castles in Westeros - because none of them is going to withstand a serious earthquake.

 

I´m sure Euron wouldn´t mind a bit of sacrifice to get his new horn to work. In fact we will soon see him do exactly that for the battle againt the Redwynes.

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That would only make sense if only that horn would be able to wake the giants in the earth - and there is no reason to believe that.

There is reason. The legend explicitly says it does that.

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Besides, we do know that this horn is also called 'the Horn of Joramun' and that guy was the first King-beyond-the-Wall which strongly suggests he lived and died in the lands beyond the Wall. Which means the Others could have found said horn a long time ago, possibly in Joramun's very own grave.

No way. I´m quiting the books if the Others out of nowhere found the HoW. Sams horn is the only inconspicuously well developed chejkov horn waiting to go off.

 

Dragonbinder will do its thing. It will bind one of the dragons to someone. Victarion, or Euron, Or Morroqo, or someone else.

but this is ice and fire. We have the fire horn, its only fair we get the ice horn as well.

Edited by LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

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7 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Honestly, this vision you guys keep referring to, from ACoK... at the time when I read it I figured it was figurative for Theon and what he was eventually about-- the sacking of Winterfell, falling prey to Reek [becoming Reek] etc etc. Of course it makes retroactive sense now that is was actually Euron, but that's as much a post rationalization as my thinking it was Theon. 

It doesn't prop up anyone's argument otherwise, and despite what some think, none of those visions are obviously about Euron hahaha... 

Give me a break. 

Ive been advocating it was was Euron since i finished the fifth book 

the prophecy is about Daenerys' husbands 

Theon wouldn't marry Daenerys. Theon's a sad broken eunuch with no power who isn't even Dany's type 

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6 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Also, its pretty clear to me now that Theon will rule the iron islands in the end

Quite the opposite actually. Theon's not getting the isles. 

He'll be no match for Euron. 

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