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[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

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1 hour ago, athmystikal said:

Aeron saw a number of gods impaled on the spikes on the Iron Trhone in one of his dreams. But the Old Gods were not among them. Intentional?

Nice catch!  IMO it's bc he considers himself an "Old God" since he has the Gift.  The only other time we see impalement and gods is during Bran's coma dream.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

<snippity doodah>

Yah, to be clear, I'm not saying Varys and Illyrio have no role to play, nor even that they couldn't make important things happen still; just that they're less important/powerful than they were, now that the game is also being played out in the open, and by more players, and such. They've lost a degree of control - but it's a sacrifice they were going to have to make, if they ever wanted to win.

Edited by Illyrio Mo'Parties

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8 minutes ago, Unknownfinger said:

Another disciple of poorquentyn checking in. Euron has been playing the pirate, has no respect for the Iron Born or their silly revanchist culture and wants even more than just to sit the Iron Throne. I am not going to say that this chapter proves everything PQ has been saying about Euron is correct but I think there is enough in the text to suggest that a lot of his concept of Euron is what we are going to find in TWOW. Euron is our Act III (human) antagonist and the harbinger of horror. He signifies that both the military strategy and political maneuverings of Act I and the reflections on the damaged they caused of Act II are over. Euron is where GRRM will pivot to his horror story and/or 80's heavy metal album covers. I doubt we will be seeing any gods but we know kraken are out there and I suspect there is something else horrible in the ocean that the Iron Born have convinced themselves is their god that Euron will be raising up as well. 

Euron will defeat the Redwyne fleet, he will ensorcell a dragon and will probably knock down the wall. Not sure if Dany will actually marry him whether he seeks to control the Others are just work with them, or if his ultimate plan is to raise up New Valaryia on the ashes of Oldtown but I do think that there is a connection to "black, oily" stone of Asshai, the seastone chair and the base of House Hightower that will have a place in Eurons game. 

I am excited. 

Would be interesting if Euron can make an alliance with the Deep Ones who I add Westeros from the shores as the Others invade Westeros from the north 

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7 hours ago, Ran said:

GRRM's stated his intention from the very beginning was that the amount of magic would increase as the series progressed. This progression seem to be in line with that.

There was a podcast in which one of the participants said he would hate that ASOIAF ends in some sort of "magical paraphernalia battle". Oh, boy, he's up to disappointment. Funny thing is that they are Tolkien fans.

People often forget ASOIAF is fantasy. The "realism" Martin offers has nothing to do with the classic elements of fantasy. It's like they want it to be something else, more "mature", more "serious", whatever that means for them. I think they'd be happy if they accept once and for all that ASOIAF is fantasy.

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I don't have a problem with the fantasy aspects of the story, but there's just no nuance to Euron's character. Like, what's his goal? To conquer the world, seriously. What's his motivation, why does he do the things he does? I don't know, because his mad, apparently. That's a cop out and a lazy way out. He was always a bad egg, since he was young. And that's it. That's taking a potentially interesting and rich character and going for the easy way out: make it a psychopath. Just like GRRM did with Cersei in Feast. 

And sure, people like that exist, not everyone is gray, blah blah blah, but that's not interesting, that's not engaging. This guy's supposed to be the Final Boss, he should be a more layered character, there should be more shades to his evilness. He's basically Ramsay. Rape? Check. Systematic torture designed to strip the victim of his identity? Check. Casual violence? Check. Represents the degradation of the North/Ironborn by going backwards towards a more savage way of living? Check. 

Euron's smart while Ramsay's a brute, so what? Big whoop. I still don't know who the fuck is Euron, other than a psychopathic rapist. You wanna talk about plot gifts? Euron's got a dragon egg, a dragonbinding horn and a super cool Valyrian steel armor. People say GRRM is somehow subverting the Dark Lord trope with Euron? I think not. He's using that trope straight. 

Hell, Victarion of all people has more nuances to his evil than Euron, and through his misguided attempts to free slaves like Dany makes him a more interesting foil to her than Euron. It's funny, the more cartoonish and over the top Euron gets, the more interesting and layered I find freaking Victarion and Aeron. 

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8 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I don't have a problem with him only being linked to the Others now. Fact is that we know very little about the Others at all, so one way or another we're going to have some late reveals and developments, and I feel as though Euron fits well as an ally of the Others

I agree with that, I just feel like the idea of a character similar to Bran but for the Others, could have been introduced earlier. The Others were introduced in the very first chapter, and it was obvious they were smart beings. Or maybe there is something we haven't seen :dunno: 

 

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4 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I don't have a problem with the fantasy aspects of the story, but there's just no nuance to Euron's character. Like, what's his goal? To conquer the world, seriously. What's his motivation, why does he do the things he does? I don't know, because his mad, apparently. That's a cop out and a lazy way out. He was always a bad egg, since he was young. And that's it. That's taking a potentially interesting and rich character and going for the easy way out: make it a psychopath. Just like GRRM did with Cersei in Feast. 

And sure, people like that exist, not everyone is gray, blah blah blah, but that's not interesting, that's not engaging. This guy's supposed to be the Final Boss, he should be a more layered character, there should be more shades to his evilness. He's basically Ramsay. Rape? Check. Systematic torture designed to strip the victim of his identity? Check. Casual violence? Check. Represents the degradation of the North/Ironborn by going backwards towards a more savage way of living? Check. 

Euron's smart while Ramsay's a brute, so what? Big whoop. I still don't know who the fuck is Euron, other than a psychopathic rapist. You wanna talk about plot gifts? Euron's got a dragon egg, a dragonbinding horn and a super cool Valyrian steel armor. People say GRRM is somehow subverting the Dark Lord trope with Euron? I think not. He's using that trope straight. 

Hell, Victarion of all people has more nuances to his evil than Euron, and through his misguided attempts to free slaves like Dany makes him a more interesting foil to her than Euron. It's funny, the more cartoonish and over the top Euron gets, the more interesting and layered I find freaking Victarion and Aeron. 

i mean, the guy has been in a small part of one book. There's still likely well more than 2000 pages to go. Who's to say we wont know more about Euron? who says we wont know what his motivation is or what.

We had feast which set him up as a new character and new player into the game. But from what we know of the Greyjoy's from the first 3 books is that the Greyjoy's have been a little more than a joke. Feast introduced Euron and showed him winning the Seastone Chair. Basically got the ball rolling for him. Now in one chapter from the newest book GRRM showed us that Euron is for real and the Greyjoy's are no longer a joke.

Who's to say in any of the next what 150-200 chapters we wont get a lot more info on Euron and what drives him?

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There's what? 40 ships, probably built specifically for fighting up North on the East coast for the Manderly's? Also, Braavos doesn't want this ass nugget in charge as he's less likely than anyone save Cersei to actually pay back the Iron Bank.

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Gentle Observer checking in to make a comment.  I posted this on Heresy as well, but figured I'd drop it in here for discussion.

I've been operating on a broad general assumption that GRRM is basically rolling back "the wheel" of Westeros' history by replaying/reimagining the great wars and conquests throughout the kingdom - each conflict we see in present day is a reworked version of a previous one.  For example, AGOT opens with a Stark/Lannister enmity that leads to the Wot5K, which could be seen as an Andal/First Men conflict.   Dany is positioning herself to be Aegon the Conqueror 2.0, and there's a good chance that Jon will become the new King in the North (that I speculate will eventually face off against a dragonlord conqueror, but this time no Stark will bend the knee - that's another discussion, however).    WE might not get ALL of the redux battles and they might not happen in exact reverse order, but I think we're close.

With regard to Euron, recall that Aegon I came to Westeros and roasted Harren the Black - Harren Hoare, cruel, evil, bloodthirsty despot and ruler of the Iron Islands.  Black Harren built his castle with blood and sorcery thinking that he will be the king to end all kings, and Aegon hails up with his big black dragon and puts an end to that tout suite.    Aegon gives the Riverlands to House Tully as thanks for their support, and bequeaths the Iron Islands to House Greyjoy.

Now we see Euron Greyjoy show up as this cruel, evil, bloodthirsty despot that now rules the Iron Islands, and across the Narrow Sea a new Targaryen conqueror with a huge black dragon has turned an eye toward Westeros.   Euron is wearing this crazy black armor and is building his fleet - and his "castle", the Silence - with blood and sorcery.    If the spool of time is being unwound, I will not be surprised to see Aegon Revisited meet up with Euron the Black, self-styled king of the Iron Islands.  What will Drogon do to the Silence?   Will the Targaryen conqueror take back the "gift" given to House Greyjoy 300 years prior, ending a short reign of terror, or this time will Targaryen side with the Black King in blood and fire?    Bonus points if something big and epic goes down at Harrenhal.

 

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On 5/29/2016 at 5:33 PM, Hos the Hostage said:

Damn, Aeron is dead, it seems. But if Euron killed Victarion (he says he killed three brothers) too, does that mean this chapter is before Vic's Winds chapter?

Is that confirmed? Aeron is killed?

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1 hour ago, athmystikal said:

Aeron saw a number of gods impaled on the spikes on the Iron Trhone in one of his dreams. But the Old Gods were not among them. Intentional?

The Old Gods don't seem to have physical manifestations in the popular consciousness, so I think that's probably the reason.

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2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is that confirmed? Aeron is killed?

I think Euron doesn't know of good ol' Moqorro and mainly of what he told Victarion about the horn...

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3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Is that confirmed? Aeron is killed?

No, I made that comment before the details of chapter came out. The three brothers Euron killed are Harlan, Urri and Balon. Aeron's chances of survival are very thin, but his death is not confirmed. But I think he will die, because he fits Dany's vision 'a corpse on the prow of a ship, grey lips smiling sadly'

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13 minutes ago, Hank of House Hutton said:

i mean, the guy has been in a small part of one book. There's still likely well more than 2000 pages to go. Who's to say we wont know more about Euron? who says we wont know what his motivation is or what.

We had feast which set him up as a new character and new player into the game. But from what we know of the Greyjoy's from the first 3 books is that the Greyjoy's have been a little more than a joke. Feast introduced Euron and showed him winning the Seastone Chair. Basically got the ball rolling for him. Now in one chapter from the newest book GRRM showed us that Euron is for real and the Greyjoy's are no longer a joke.

Who's to say in any of the next what 150-200 chapters we wont get a lot more info on Euron and what drives him?

Well, I sure hope so, but this chapter does him no favors by pretty much saying he was a bad egg all along, that he was always a psychopathic rapist. Yawn. 

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6 minutes ago, Hos the Hostage said:

No, I made that comment before the details of chapter came out. The three brothers Euron killed are Harlan, Urri and Balon. Aeron's chances of survival are very thin, but his death is not confirmed. But I think he will die, because he fits Dany's vision 'a corpse on the prow of a ship, grey lips smiling sadly'

What about Leon Hightower? Is he leading the ships down the Mander, or is he sending them? If it is the former we can put the Leyton = Haldon theory to rest.

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37 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I don't have a problem with the fantasy aspects of the story, but there's just no nuance to Euron's character. Like, what's his goal? To conquer the world, seriously. What's his motivation, why does he do the things he does? I don't know, because his mad, apparently. That's a cop out and a lazy way out. He was always a bad egg, since he was young. And that's it. That's taking a potentially interesting and rich character and going for the easy way out: make it a psychopath. Just like GRRM did with Cersei in Feast. 

And sure, people like that exist, not everyone is gray, blah blah blah, but that's not interesting, that's not engaging. This guy's supposed to be the Final Boss, he should be a more layered character, there should be more shades to his evilness. He's basically Ramsay. Rape? Check. Systematic torture designed to strip the victim of his identity? Check. Casual violence? Check. Represents the degradation of the North/Ironborn by going backwards towards a more savage way of living? Check. 

Euron's smart while Ramsay's a brute, so what? Big whoop. I still don't know who the fuck is Euron, other than a psychopathic rapist. You wanna talk about plot gifts? Euron's got a dragon egg, a dragonbinding horn and a super cool Valyrian steel armor. People say GRRM is somehow subverting the Dark Lord trope with Euron? I think not. He's using that trope straight. 

Hell, Victarion of all people has more nuances to his evil than Euron, and through his misguided attempts to free slaves like Dany makes him a more interesting foil to her than Euron. It's funny, the more cartoonish and over the top Euron gets, the more interesting and layered I find freaking Victarion and Aeron. 

Actually Euron states in AFFC what he wants.  "The world"

In what ways are you looking for nuance? Is Euron morally nuanced? Of course not. But he's not a simple character either. He's still a complex character.

of course Victarion and Aeron are more nuanced than Euron. They're POV characters. We're actually inside their heads. A POV character will almost always be more nuanced than a non POV character 

Anyways Euron getting a Valyrian steel suit of armor isn't a plot gift because it so far has had no bearing on the plot. The Dragonbinder is no more a plot gift than Daenerys being handed dragon eggs. And Euron allegedly had a dragon egg although again why is Euron stealing one worse than Daenerys getting three for free as a gift? 

 

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49 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I don't have a problem with the fantasy aspects of the story, but there's just no nuance to Euron's character. Like, what's his goal? To conquer the world, seriously. What's his motivation, why does he do the things he does? I don't know, because his mad, apparently. That's a cop out and a lazy way out. He was always a bad egg, since he was young. And that's it. That's taking a potentially interesting and rich character and going for the easy way out: make it a psychopath. Just like GRRM did with Cersei in Feast. 

And sure, people like that exist, not everyone is gray, blah blah blah, but that's not interesting, that's not engaging. This guy's supposed to be the Final Boss, he should be a more layered character, there should be more shades to his evilness. He's basically Ramsay. Rape? Check. Systematic torture designed to strip the victim of his identity? Check. Casual violence? Check. Represents the degradation of the North/Ironborn by going backwards towards a more savage way of living? Check. 

Euron's smart while Ramsay's a brute, so what? Big whoop. I still don't know who the fuck is Euron, other than a psychopathic rapist. You wanna talk about plot gifts? Euron's got a dragon egg, a dragonbinding horn and a super cool Valyrian steel armor. People say GRRM is somehow subverting the Dark Lord trope with Euron? I think not. He's using that trope straight. 

Hell, Victarion of all people has more nuances to his evil than Euron, and through his misguided attempts to free slaves like Dany makes him a more interesting foil to her than Euron. It's funny, the more cartoonish and over the top Euron gets, the more interesting and layered I find freaking Victarion and Aeron. 

 

Since madeinmyr predicted where Euron was going, I'll also quite him:

 

 

 

Euron Crow’s Eye is GRRM’s reinterpretation of the classic dark lord antagonist. His intent is not even remotely subtle. To repeat an earlier description of Euron:

His clothes are black, his hair is black, his lips are blue, he has a black eye-patch covering a malicious black eye, his personal banner is a red eye with a black pupil, he regularly imbibes a dark occult liquid, and he sails a sinister looking black-red longship crewed by mutilated slaves and evil wizards.

Then there’s Euron’s love for rape, torture and slavery, along with his embrace of blood magic and self-professed desire to take over the world. In a series with some really monstrous human characters, Euron manages to stand out as the absolute worst, owing to the sheer scale of what he wants to do. It is his personal banner though that is the real giveaway, being an obvious reference to the red eye of Sauron.

 
All this seems rather weird however in light of GRRM’s self-professed dislike for dark lord antagonists and his desire to take his series in an entirely different direction:
 
 
 
It is certainly a genuine, legitimate topic as the core of fantasy, but I think the battle between Good and Evil is waged within the individual human hearts.
 
 

And “rape and sexual violence have been a part of every war ever fought, from the ancient Sumerians to our present day”.

“To omit them from a narrative centered on war and power would have been fundamentally false and dishonest, and would have undermined one of the themes of the books: that the true horrors of human history derive not from orcs and Dark Lords, but from ourselves. We are the monsters. (And the heroes too). Each of us has within himself the capacity for great good, and great evil,” the author said.

So what’s going on here? If Martin thinks this, then why did he write a dangerous, up and coming dark lord into his storyline and make him one of the primary human villains? We’ve been puzzling over this question for a while now and we think we’ve finally arrived at the answer.

Now Euron is the encroaching dark lord with his evil army of slaves and marauders. Unlike the reader, the people in the South do not know about the Others and R’hllor. If Euron sacks Oldtown, captures a dragon, and begins burning large parts of the Reach he will therefore be viewed as the ultimate force for evil. Rulers and heroes will mobilize to fight him, believing that after the Crow’s Eye is destroyed Westeros will at last know peace. The victors will naturally believe that their triumph will secure their right to rule.

But the dark lord is not actually the problem; he is merely a symptom of the problem. We’ve mentioned how Euron’s flamboyant villainy is really an intimidating front designed to hide his true power and malevolence. But the true self hidden behind this front is not the true villain, it is merely a second front. Behind the Crow’s Eye is the Song of Ice and Fire, the battle of the Others and R’hllor, and behind these two malignant powers is the human ambition, wickedness, fear, desperation, greed and stupidity that has long drawn such demons into the world

The dark lord’s defeat will only put an end to his horrific rampage; it will not magically solve the political crisis, end the numerous vendettas, alleviate the country’s ongoing collapse, or prepare Westeros for Winter and the War for the Dawn. These challenges will have to be dealt with separately and will be far less satisfying. The danger is that the (supposed) vanquishers will believe in their story-book ending and think they’ve won the game while the country continues its slide towards utter ruin. One of the consistent themes of the book is that waging war is actually easy compared to ruling and peacemaking (just ask Queen Daenerys Targaryen, Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Tywin Lannister, Queen Cersei Lannister, Theon Greyjoy and King Robert Baratheon). If Euron’s destruction results in yet another period of Southern compliancy and fratricidal bloodletting then his destruction will have accomplished absolutely nothing. Part of the reason Euron the dark lord exists is to provide a climax for two of the series’ longest running themes. First, conquest does not equal victory and you confuse these two at your peril. Second, evil largely results from the decisions, beliefs, sentiments, and mistakes of ordinary human beings trying to live as best they can within difficult circumstances and deeply-flawed societies.

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54 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I don't have a problem with the fantasy aspects of the story, but there's just no nuance to Euron's character. Like, what's his goal? To conquer the world, seriously. What's his motivation, why does he do the things he does? I don't know, because his mad, apparently. That's a cop out and a lazy way out. He was always a bad egg, since he was young. And that's it. That's taking a potentially interesting and rich character and going for the easy way out: make it a psychopath. Just like GRRM did with Cersei in Feast. 

And sure, people like that exist, not everyone is gray, blah blah blah, but that's not interesting, that's not engaging. This guy's supposed to be the Final Boss, he should be a more layered character, there should be more shades to his evilness. He's basically Ramsay. Rape? Check. Systematic torture designed to strip the victim of his identity? Check. Casual violence? Check. Represents the degradation of the North/Ironborn by going backwards towards a more savage way of living? Check. 

Euron's smart while Ramsay's a brute, so what? Big whoop. I still don't know who the fuck is Euron, other than a psychopathic rapist. You wanna talk about plot gifts? Euron's got a dragon egg, a dragonbinding horn and a super cool Valyrian steel armor. People say GRRM is somehow subverting the Dark Lord trope with Euron? I think not. He's using that trope straight. 

Hell, Victarion of all people has more nuances to his evil than Euron, and through his misguided attempts to free slaves like Dany makes him a more interesting foil to her than Euron. It's funny, the more cartoonish and over the top Euron gets, the more interesting and layered I find freaking Victarion and Aeron. 

You're assuming he's The Final Boss, he could help save the realm at the end of the day for all we know.

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7 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Anyways Euron getting a Valyrian steel suit of armor isn't a plot gift because it so far has had no bearing on the plot. The Dragonbinder is no more a plot gift than Daenerys being handed dragon eggs. And Euron allegedly had a dragon egg although again why is Euron stealing one worse than Daenerys getting three for free as a gift? 

 

This is an excellent point. I do feel empathy for those that don't like Euron as it's looking increasing likely that his purpose is to disrupt the ice vs fire narrative as he doesn't want to choose between the two.  He wants the dragon fire and the power over cold of the Others. He wants to be master of both ends of the emotional spectrum that fire and ice represent. He wants it all and he is going to become a very large part of our story. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Actually Euron states in AFFC what he wants.  "The world"

In what ways are you looking for nuance? Is Euron morally nuanced? Of course not. But he's not a simple character either. He's still a complex character.

of course Victarion and Aeron are more nuanced than Euron. They're POV characters. We're actually inside their heads. A POV character will almost always be more nuanced than a non POV character 

Anyways Euron getting a Valyrian steel suit of armor isn't a plot gift because it so far has had no bearing on the plot. The Dragonbinder is no more a plot gift than Daenerys being handed dragon eggs. And Euron allegedly had a dragon egg although again why is Euron stealing one worse than Daenerys getting three for free as a gift? 

 

"The world". Well, that proves my point. Euron is The Brain, which I guess makes Victarion Pinky. 

I strongly disagree with the bolded, as non-POV characters like Stannis, Sandor, Tywin, Jorah, Margaery, Littlefinger, etc, are a thousand times more nuanced than POVs like Hotah, Quentyn or the Damphair himself. 

As for Euron's complexity, please elaborate on that because I just don't see it. What you quoted doesn't go into Euron's character per se. 

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