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[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

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1 hour ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I don't have a problem with the fantasy aspects of the story, but there's just no nuance to Euron's character. Like, what's his goal? To conquer the world, seriously. What's his motivation, why does he do the things he does? I don't know, because his mad, apparently. That's a cop out and a lazy way out. He was always a bad egg, since he was young. And that's it. That's taking a potentially interesting and rich character and going for the easy way out: make it a psychopath. Just like GRRM did with Cersei in Feast. 

And sure, people like that exist, not everyone is gray, blah blah blah, but that's not interesting, that's not engaging. This guy's supposed to be the Final Boss, he should be a more layered character, there should be more shades to his evilness. He's basically Ramsay. Rape? Check. Systematic torture designed to strip the victim of his identity? Check. Casual violence? Check. Represents the degradation of the North/Ironborn by going backwards towards a more savage way of living? Check. 

Euron's smart while Ramsay's a brute, so what? Big whoop. I still don't know who the fuck is Euron, other than a psychopathic rapist. You wanna talk about plot gifts? Euron's got a dragon egg, a dragonbinding horn and a super cool Valyrian steel armor. People say GRRM is somehow subverting the Dark Lord trope with Euron? I think not. He's using that trope straight. 

Hell, Victarion of all people has more nuances to his evil than Euron, and through his misguided attempts to free slaves like Dany makes him a more interesting foil to her than Euron. It's funny, the more cartoonish and over the top Euron gets, the more interesting and layered I find freaking Victarion and Aeron. 

Euron:  Some men want to watch the world burn.  The end.

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7 minutes ago, Brianstorm said:

You're assuming he's The Final Boss, he could help save the realm at the end of the day for all we know.

For all we know he could join Aegon the Conqueror and juggle lemon cakes on top of a dragon. I'm basing my opinion on the information we have so far, not in what may or may not happen in the future. 

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Euron:  Some men want to watch the world burn.  The end.

Riveting. GRRM spent all of two minutes creating the character if that's the case. 

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Just now, Good Guy Garlan said:

Riveting. GRRM spent all of two minutes creating the character if that's the case. 

LOL, well, what do you expect when he has the eye of Sauron as his sigil. 

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There's no accounting for taste, of course, but personally you're confusing "complicated" for "interesting".

 

Also: Damphair is the shit. I'll never understand why people don't find him fascinating.

Edited by Illyrio Mo'Parties

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I wouldn't call the Damphair "fascinating" by any stretch, but he's more interesting than Arianne and everyone else in Dorne, so he's got that going for him.

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

LOL, well, what do you expect when he has the eye of Sauron as his sigil. 

Yeah, apparently that's the level of sophistication we're dealing with here :/

5 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

There's no accounting for taste, of course, but personally you're confusing "complicated" for "interesting".

Complicated = interesting for me

In my opinion, there's nothing interesting about a moustache twirling villain who's evil for the sake of being evil and wants to - get this - rule the world. 

You can dress a one-note character in Valyrian steel, but it'll still be a one-note character. 

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@Good Guy Garlan

Well, there are hints that Euron's grand dreams come from him possibly being a (failed) greenseer. We don't know yet what he can do but if he can do similar stuff than Bran and Bloodraven (or is learning to do those things) then there might be a lot more to him than there is right now. And I actually expect a lot of characters going more in the darker direction. Winter has come. Things will get really nasty now. Westeros is about the get even more barbaric and war-torn and people like Euron (or Ramsay) will thrive in that environment. The time for the good guys is over. The good guys will have to become more like the villains or perish.

And strictly speaking, I'm not sure what you expect from some kind of guy who wants to conquer stuff. Euron and Aegon the Conqueror might have had the same depth. For some reason they want to rule over a lot of land. Most likely has something to do with their egos. The main difference would be that Aegon was no psychopath.

Thinking about Euron - any chance that his murder of Harlon was partially (or even mainly) a mercy killing (and the same could extend to Robin, too). I mean, the idea that you put an injured horse or dog out of its misery is very common in this world. Harlon was dying a very cruel death anyway, and Robin was a lackwit.

Euron paints all that as him being the big Bad Evil Guy but that's his routine with Aeron. The man doesn't for a moment believe he is a god himself, or something like that.

And he isn't as bad Ramsay by far. He doesn't torture Aeron at all. He just imprisons him. There is a difference there.

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Plenty of interesting hypotheses here. 

The three murdered brothers were Harlon, Robin (the half brother) and Balon . I guess we'll get some future revelation about the fate of Urri...

I'm still not feeling the FM connection , unless some FM turned rogue, or unless Euron had somehow captured one, as Lord Varys suggests..

5 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

 

Since madeinmyr predicted where Euron was going, I'll also quite him:

 

 

Euron Crow’s Eye is GRRM’s reinterpretation of the classic dark lord antagonist. 

*****

So what’s going on here? If Martin thinks this, then why did he write a dangerous, up and coming dark lord into his storyline and make him one of the primary human villains? We’ve been puzzling over this question for a while now and we think we’ve finally arrived at the answer.

Now Euron is the encroaching dark lord with his evil army of slaves and marauders. Unlike the reader, the people in the South do not know about the Others and R’hllor. If Euron sacks Oldtown, captures a dragon, and begins burning large parts of the Reach he will therefore be viewed as the ultimate force for evil. Rulers and heroes will mobilize to fight him, believing that after the Crow’s Eye is destroyed Westeros will at last know peace. The victors will naturally believe that their triumph will secure their right to rule.

But the dark lord is not actually the problem; he is merely a symptom of the problem. We’ve mentioned how Euron’s flamboyant villainy is really an intimidating front designed to hide his true power and malevolence. But the true self hidden behind this front is not the true villain, it is merely a second front. Behind the Crow’s Eye is the Song of Ice and Fire, the battle of the Others and R’hllor, and behind these two malignant powers is the human ambition, wickedness, fear, desperation, greed and stupidity that has long drawn such demons into the world

The dark lord’s defeat will only put an end to his horrific rampage; it will not magically solve the political crisis, end the numerous vendettas, alleviate the country’s ongoing collapse, or prepare Westeros for Winter and the War for the Dawn. These challenges will have to be dealt with separately and will be far less satisfying. The danger is that the (supposed) vanquishers will believe in their story-book ending and think they’ve won the game while the country continues its slide towards utter ruin. One of the consistent themes of the book is that waging war is actually easy compared to ruling and peacemaking (just ask Queen Daenerys Targaryen, Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Tywin Lannister, Queen Cersei Lannister, Theon Greyjoy and King Robert Baratheon). If Euron’s destruction results in yet another period of Southern compliancy and fratricidal bloodletting then his destruction will have accomplished absolutely nothing. Part of the reason Euron the dark lord exists is to provide a climax for two of the series’ longest running themes. First, conquest does not equal victory and you confuse these two at your peril. Second, evil largely results from the decisions, beliefs, sentiments, and mistakes of ordinary human beings trying to live as best they can within difficult circumstances and deeply-flawed societies.

I think this is excellent insight.

But to come back to some details in the reading, I think that Aeron's struggle to name who is fit to sit the seastone chair is complicated by things he cannot know. I think he he believes Theon to be dead (but in any case, he's unlikely to be accepted as king because of what's been done to him). He thinks Asha and Victarion should marry, she to provide the brains for ruling, he to provide the brawn.

He can't get past disqualifying her because she's cursed with a woman's body and  probably the IB in general would share his opinion. However, They may go to Oldtown at some point. Aeron may be able to slip his bonds...hmmmm...

I think there are tantalizing hints that Theon did impregnate the captain of the Myraham's daughter and that she and the baby may be the mother and child Sam notices at the dock for the Bloody Isle. The baby would be in Balon's direct line... and since the Damphair is sensing a some sort of joint rulership. Asha as regent or protector for Theon's son might fit the bill.

 

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

@Good Guy Garlan

Well, there are hints that Euron's grand dreams come from him possibly being a (failed) greenseer. We don't know yet what he can do but if he can do similar stuff than Bran and Bloodraven (or is learning to do those things) then there might be a lot more to him than there is right now. And I actually expect a lot of characters going more in the darker direction. Winter has come. Things will get really nasty now. Westeros is about the get even more barbaric and war-torn and people like Euron (or Ramsay) will thrive in that environment. The time for the good guys is over. The good guys will have to become more like the villains or perish.

And strictly speaking, I'm not sure what you expect from some kind of guy who wants to conquer stuff. Euron and Aegon the Conqueror might have had the same depth. For some reason they want to rule over a lot of land. Most likely has something to do with their egos. The main difference would be that Aegon was no psychopath.

Thinking about Euron - any chance that his murder of Harlon was partially (or even mainly) a mercy killing (and the same could extend to Robin, too). I mean, the idea that you put an injured horse or dog out of its misery is very common in this world. Harlon was dying a very cruel death anyway, and Robin was a lackwit.

Euron paints all that as him being the big Bad Evil Guy but that's his routine with Aeron. The man doesn't for a moment believe he is a god himself, or something like that.

And he isn't as bad Ramsay by far. He doesn't torture Aeron at all. He just imprisons him. There is a difference there.

? He is worse than Ramsay.  He cuts out the tongues of everyone who serves him.  He's a torturer who puts Ramsay to shame, I mean, he did burn off the hands of the Red Priest, didn't he?

Since it's now confirmed that as most people already believed, he sexually abused his brothers.....the idea that he killed his other brothers out of "mercy" seems very unlikely.  I think it's not going to be possible for GRRM to give him any serious depth, the best that can be hoped is he serves as a conduit for interesting info. about magic and Valyria.  Cersei too was a bad seed, but not this bad, so despite her being a villain she can still be a complex and layered character.  Euron, I can't see it where any "nuance" would come from.

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Euron Greyjoy is definitely not the final boss of ASOIAF. GRRM's leaked outline clearly establishes that the three major acts of the story are 1) the War of the Five Kings, 2) Dany's invasion of Westeros, and 3) the Other invasion.

Euron was not even a gleam in GRRM's eye when he came up with this plot.

I think Euron will be one of Dany's major antagonists in the Dance of Dragons. Very much doubt he has anything to do with the Other invasion or the Wall.

Edited by draft0

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I meant to add that Euron forces the Damphair to drink more shade of the evening than Dany consumed.. We know that at least some of her visions were false ,manipulated by the Undying. So can Euron (or Euron and "Pree") manipulate some of Aerons visions? (Like Euron on the IT?)

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30 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

"The world". Well, that proves my point. Euron is The Brain, which I guess makes Victarion Pinky. 

I strongly disagree with the bolded, as non-POV characters like Stannis, Sandor, Tywin, Jorah, Margaery, Littlefinger, etc, are a thousand times more nuanced than POVs like Hotah, Quentyn or the Damphair himself. 

As for Euron's complexity, please elaborate on that because I just don't see it. What you quoted doesn't go into Euron's character per se. 

Well is I did say most characters although I disagree with some of your examples. Quentyn and Damphair are definitely more complex than Littlefinger(disappointed in life guy that wants to fuck the world and Cat/Sansa), Marge(she's a very vague character in the books but she's not complex) and Jorah(who isn't a well written character, his main characteristics are obsessed with Daenerys and knowledgeable about the world)

Stannis and if you had said the Hound, I could agree with. On the fence about Tywin.

Well there's a lot of backstory with Euron that we haven't uncovered yet. There's a lot of allusions to him being associated with Bloodraven but we haven't gotten 411 on that yet which I expect to be expanded on. 

And considering how Bran had to go through a near death experience and he sees a bunch of greenseers dead on the floor in his dreams, I'd say it's reasonable to think Euron went through the same thing and that it could've completely changed him.

There's some other stuff too. Like in the new Aeron chapter, it seems extremely likely that Euron did like Falla but sacrificing people you like or are related to is part of magic rituals. He's not just a foil to Daenerys and Bran but also to Stannis in that sense.

One example I read about was that Euron was also a dark mirror of his father. A king who wants to break away from ironborn culture but they're on opposite routes

Of Quellon Greyjoy’s four adult sons, it is Euron who most resembles him. This might seem like a strange thing to say, given that Quellon was by all accounts an uncommonly decent, well intentioned and sensible lord, and Euron…isn’t any of those things. But Quellon and Euron share one major commonality in that they’re both top-down reformers, rulers who have made a determined attempt to overthrow the dead hand of the Old Way and substitute supposedly superior foreign ways in its place. In fact, when their reigns are compared side by side, one is struck by just how much Euron seems a dark echo of dear old dad.

Let’s begin with Lord Quellon. Quellon’s edicts restricted reaving, abolished thralldom, and through taxation attempted to discourage the taking of salt wives. He imported maesters and ravens by the score and faithfully carried out his obligations to the Iron Throne. His personal life was one long rebuke to the Old Way, cumulating in his marriage to Lady Piper under the watchful eyes of the Seven. All these reforms and symbolic gestures were made “in hopes of forging stronger bonds between his own domains and the rest of the Seven Kingdoms” (World Book 191). In short, he was attempting to gradually discard the Old Way and make the Iron Isles more like mainland Westeros. And he was able to accomplish all of this not because he converted his subjects to his point of view, but because “few dared speak openly against him, for he was known to be strong-willed and stubborn and fearsome in his wroth” (World Book 191).

Compare with King Euron. Euron is scornful of the Red Kraken/Dagon tradition of reaving and is instead attempting a much more ambitious and strategic form of warfare. He is steadily replacing thralldom and salt wives with Essosi chattel slavery. He has brought Qartheen Warlocks, R'hllorite magic, and Unsullied-like slave soldiers to the Iron Islands. His whole life is one long blasphemy against the spirit and pieties of the Old Way and he has expressed his intent to “wed the dragon” Daenerys Targaryen (FfC Victarion II). In short, he’s attempting to gradually discard the Old Way and make his “small, noisy folk” more like present-day Essos and ancient Valyria. And he’s accomplishing all of this post-Kingsmoot by being so intimidating that literally everyone (save the Reader) is afraid to go against him.

Though he’ll likely never admit it, Euron learned quite a bit from watching his father.

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7 minutes ago, draft0 said:

Euron Greyjoy is definitely not the final boss of ASOIAF. GRRM's leaked outline clearly establishes that the three major acts of the story are 1) the War of the Five Kings, 2) Dany's invasion of Westeros, and 3) the Other invasion.

Euron was not even a gleam in GRRM's eye when he came up with this plot.

I think Euron will be one of Dany's major antagonists in the Dance of Dragons. Very much doubt he has anything to do with the Other invasion or the Wall.

You realize that outline has almost completely changed, right? 

There are some similar things but there's likely not going to be any Stark-Arya Union, Jaime won't be king, Sansa never married Joffrey or will choose the a new family over the old one, Benjen isn't LC etc. 

I mean a major part of Book 2 is Stannis and Renly and they're not even in the outline.

------

Also keep in mind that the Horn of Joramun has entered Euron's orbit and we know Euron wants to bring some sort of Apocalypse down on Westeros 

that horn is going to be blown and it seems fitting that the guy with the blue lips that is reminiscent of of a person freezing will do it 

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Didn't Oldtown surrender to the Targs because of a prophecy that if they fought the Targs their city would be burned to the ground or something?

So, yep, I foresee Euron offering them Highgarden (which they have always though they should have received), and they will jump at the chance, and end up fighting Dany with Oldtown being burned to the ground by Drogon. Note, I am not in favour of this, I love the Reach.

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19 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

? He is worse than Ramsay.  He cuts out the tongues of everyone who serves him.  He's a torturer who puts Ramsay to shame, I mean, he did burn off the hands of the Red Priest, didn't he?

Since it's now confirmed that as most people already believed, he sexually abused his brothers.....the idea that he killed his other brothers out of "mercy" seems very unlikely.  I think it's not going to be possible for GRRM to give him any serious depth, the best that can be hoped is he serves as a conduit for interesting info. about magic and Valyria.  Cersei too was a bad seed, but not this bad, so despite her being a villain she can still be a complex and layered character.  Euron, I can't see it where any "nuance" would come from.

Oh, you think the red priest was tortured? Could be. I thought he may have been injured during the raid or attack on his temple. But you might be right there. But then, Euron has to break those priests and sorcerers he uses. They are not likely to give in all that easily. And the Qartheen don't appear to be all that broken to me, by the way. Not to mention that they still have their tongues (unlike the septons, apparently).

Depending how important Euron will become later in the series there might eventually be some deeper insight into his character. We have to learn what drives him.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, you think the red priest was tortured? Could be. I thought he may have been injured during the raid or attack on his temple. But you might be right there. But then, Euron has to break those priests and sorcerers he uses. They are not likely to give in all that easily. And the Qartheen don't appear to be all that broken to me, by the way. Not to mention that they still have their tongues (unlike the septons, apparently).

Depending how important Euron will become later in the series there might eventually be some deeper insight into his character. We have to learn what drives him.

I took it that Euron was like, let's see if your fire god will save you...lights torch, puts to hands.  I'm not sure why the other guy is missing his legs, but I assumed that was Euron's doing also.  And the other? one? is Pyat Pree, can't remember what had happened to him...

GRRM has given even his worst villains some level of back story, Ramsay's back story certainly explains a lot of his pathology, even the Mountain has the headaches....but, I can't conceive of any back story other than "straight up psychopath" that could account for Euron.  

 

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2 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I don't have a problem with the fantasy aspects of the story, but there's just no nuance to Euron's character. Like, what's his goal? To conquer the world, seriously. What's his motivation, why does he do the things he does? I don't know, because his mad, apparently. That's a cop out and a lazy way out. He was always a bad egg, since he was young. And that's it. That's taking a potentially interesting and rich character and going for the easy way out: make it a psychopath. Just like GRRM did with Cersei in Feast. 

And sure, people like that exist, not everyone is gray, blah blah blah, but that's not interesting, that's not engaging. This guy's supposed to be the Final Boss, he should be a more layered character, there should be more shades to his evilness. He's basically Ramsay. Rape? Check. Systematic torture designed to strip the victim of his identity? Check. Casual violence? Check. Represents the degradation of the North/Ironborn by going backwards towards a more savage way of living? Check. 

Euron's smart while Ramsay's a brute, so what? Big whoop. I still don't know who the fuck is Euron, other than a psychopathic rapist. You wanna talk about plot gifts? Euron's got a dragon egg, a dragonbinding horn and a super cool Valyrian steel armor. People say GRRM is somehow subverting the Dark Lord trope with Euron? I think not. He's using that trope straight. 

Hell, Victarion of all people has more nuances to his evil than Euron, and through his misguided attempts to free slaves like Dany makes him a more interesting foil to her than Euron. It's funny, the more cartoonish and over the top Euron gets, the more interesting and layered I find freaking Victarion and Aeron. 

Ditto that. He's such an over-the-top character. Too obvious of a villain and he's like something out of a trashy fantasy novel (the kind with bad cover art that you're mortified to show anyone). That's why I think this whole situation is a farce. People are talking about Cthulhu and sea dragons and Euron using some crazy magic to shatter the Reach and magic horns, but I think GRRM is setting him up for an epic fail. He might beat Redwyne to keep the illusion up, and then once he hits Oldtown he's dead meat. 

He loves to pull the rug from under us, so I doubt Euron is going to end up achieving all that much other than distracting everyone from Young Griff and Connington. Victarion is the important one, the one with the horn and the ships to reach Dany. Aeron and Euron are likely there to die and shatter the spirit of the Ironborn, thus making it more likely for the remnants to accept disgraces like Theon or Asha as leaders. 

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55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The time for the good guys is over.

Have we been reading the same books? :D

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17 minutes ago, King in the Narrow Sea said:

Ditto that. He's such an over-the-top character. Too obvious of a villain and he's like something out of a trashy fantasy novel (the kind with bad cover art that you're mortified to show anyone). That's why I think this whole situation is a farce. People are talking about Cthulhu and sea dragons and Euron using some crazy magic to shatter the Reach and magic horns, but I think GRRM is setting him up for an epic fail. He might beat Redwyne to keep the illusion up, and then once he hits Oldtown he's dead meat. 

He loves to pull the rug from under us, so I doubt Euron is going to end up achieving all that much other than distracting everyone from Young Griff and Connington. Victarion is the important one, the one with the horn and the ships to reach Dany. Aeron and Euron are likely there to die and shatter the spirit of the Ironborn, thus making it more likely for the remnants to accept disgraces like Theon or Asha as leaders. 

This would be more plausible if not for those visions that Aeron was getting and the fourth novel being named after Euron the same way that the fifth novel was partially named after Aegon 

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