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[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

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Euron is set up now, more than ever, after this chapter, to be a major figure/antagonist in the story.  So the question is, does being a sadistic, mad, sorcerer nut job who wants to rule the world, make him a deep enough character to sustain this role.  

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17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Euron is set up now, more than ever, after this chapter, to be a major figure/antagonist in the story.  So the question is, does being a sadistic, mad, sorcerer nut job who wants to rule the world, make him a deep enough character to sustain this role.  

I really don't get this 'Euron is completely evil' thing. He is most likely not much worse than the average Ironborn. And unlike them he dreams and plans big. Do you guys really think he would continue to be an evil tyrant after he has taken the Iron Throne and defeated all his enemies?

I'd say not necessarily. The man is not as stupid as to try to force Ironborn culture on the entire continent of Westeros. Why do you think he wants to marry Daenerys? To gain a legal claim and legitimacy in the eyes of the lords of Westeros. He would be the one who restores the Targaryen dynasty to the Iron Throne.

He'll become an antagonist and a power of destruction because he'll not succeed, and he'll meet massive resistance on the way, forcing him to descend ever more into the sphere of mad tyrants/dark lords.

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

I really don't get this 'Euron is completely evil' thing. He is most likely not much worse than the average Ironborn. And unlike them he dreams and plans big. Do you guys really think he would continue to be an evil tyrant after he has taken the Iron Throne and defeated all his enemies?

I'd say not necessarily. The man is not as stupid as to try to force Ironborn culture on the entire continent of Westeros. Why do you think he wants to marry Daenerys? To gain a legal claim and legitimacy in the eyes of the lords of Westeros. He would be the one who restores the Targaryen dynasty to the Iron Throne.

He'll become an antagonist and a power of destruction because he'll not succeed, and he'll meet massive resistance on the way, forcing him to descend ever more into the sphere of mad tyrants/dark lords.

How's that?  He sexually abused his own brothers.  He's a kinslayer x 3.  He cuts out the tongues of those who serve him.  How is he possibly "not much worse" than the average Iron Born?  There is nothing  in the IB history that they torture and mutilate their enemies, or in the case of Flowers, their lovers who adore them.

Yes.  He would absolutely be an evil tyrant who would make Joff look like a good ruler.  He doesn't care about the IB culture.  He likes to hurt people.  If he ruled the IT he will hurt people on a larger scale.  He basically said he wants to usher in a new age of darkness.....how much further do you think he has to descend?  LOL.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I really don't get this 'Euron is completely evil' thing. He is most likely not much worse than the average Ironborn. And unlike them he dreams and plans big. Do you guys really think he would continue to be an evil tyrant after he has taken the Iron Throne and defeated all his enemies?

I'd say not necessarily. The man is not as stupid as to try to force Ironborn culture on the entire continent of Westeros. Why do you think he wants to marry Daenerys? To gain a legal claim and legitimacy in the eyes of the lords of Westeros. He would be the one who restores the Targaryen dynasty to the Iron Throne.

He'll become an antagonist and a power of destruction because he'll not succeed, and he'll meet massive resistance on the way, forcing him to descend ever more into the sphere of mad tyrants/dark lords.

Of course he doesn't want force Iron Born culture on Westeros. He wants to erase the Iron Born from existence along with most of Westeros...and Essos for that matter. 

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37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I really don't get this 'Euron is completely evil' thing. He is most likely not much worse than the average Ironborn. And unlike them he dreams and plans big. Do you guys really think he would continue to be an evil tyrant after he has taken the Iron Throne and defeated all his enemies?

I'd say not necessarily. The man is not as stupid as to try to force Ironborn culture on the entire continent of Westeros. Why do you think he wants to marry Daenerys? To gain a legal claim and legitimacy in the eyes of the lords of Westeros. He would be the one who restores the Targaryen dynasty to the Iron Throne.

He'll become an antagonist and a power of destruction because he'll not succeed, and he'll meet massive resistance on the way, forcing him to descend ever more into the sphere of mad tyrants/dark lords.

The Ironborns are idiots. Euron is not, and he's making use of it. He's the combination of two of the most horrible human beings in Westeros: Daemon Targaryen and Ramsay Bolton. Your stance that Euron is as bad as any Ironborn would have lumped all the wildlings Jon Snow saved, the Mountain clans and basically many others in wars to be as bad as Euron.

The very fundamental of belief in gods stems from the belief in an afterlife. And Euron doesn't believe that (and if Jon Snow's answer to Melisandre about his after death experience in show is any indication) and hence he doesn't give a crap about the punishments from gods or what would have befallen him after death. He's only care about his current life, his own life, not even his lagacy.

Euron might have soft spot for crows. Maybe that's the only redeeming trait he has so that he isn't completely evil.

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7 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

So I take it that this means the 'Bride of Fire' trilogy relates to the Three Mounts you must ride.

The Silver and the Ship with Aeron on the Prow fits that. But these are very literal compared to the blue rose in the wall of ice. We assumed the Blue rose was Jon but the other two are not as figurative. I would assume that she will need to 'mount' this wall of ice as in climb it?

Sex with Jon against the wall.

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On 5/31/2016 at 7:49 AM, northernmonkey said:

Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.

And ideas what the forest refers to? Could it be a sign that Euron gets hold of a dragon?

 

Venturing a guess that the forest refers to westeros in general, burning and destroyed while the dwarfs represent all the lords and ladies playing the game of thrones.  Euron sits upon his throne and is amused by their small actions.  Similar scene in the second vision, though this time Euron's visage is more terrible and he has a mysterious companion (possibly symbolizing a dragon).

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5 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Euron may or may not become something more than man after his mass sacrifice.

Not a mass sacrifice, two sacrifices, himself and his child. That's why he needs Dany, he needs a 'heir worth of him', the him is Drogon and he needs blood the blood of the dragon. The blood betrayal. To fly he has to jump from the tower, die, and that's what will happen when he blows the horn. But, he'll get something back, he trades his blood, he gets back fire. He becomes the dragon, supplanting Drogo inside of Drogon, the second head of the dragon, the mount to dread.

And, because Euron will have Greyscale, Drogon will become the stone dragon, and because Euron is kraken descending from another race, drogon will develop kraken or sea dragon features. He'll be a miss-match, like a sphinx. Then comes the third act, Dany trying to wake her dragon from stone, requiring pure dragon blood in her nissa nissa to bring Drogon back to her.

And the tower from which Euron blows the horn and takes flight as the Stone Beast will be Storm's End, during one of those epic once every 77 year but not really storms, as Euron is the first and the last storm.

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Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.

Capering and laughing brings to mind mischief and trickery, and with forests burning runs well into this Grey King feat.

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It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze.

Storm God being Dany the Stormborn.

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Adding about 20 cents of my own after reading the transcribed chapter and thinking on it...

I think the purpose of the tongueless is that Euron wargs into them and controls them.  Some part of his ritual that allows him to maintain power over them involves the tongue removal.  When Euron tells Aeron that he didn't 'do the deed himself', but it was his hand that pushed Balon, I suspect that it was one of his tongueless who pushed Balon, while under the control of Euron. 

My other thought is that Euron himself is or was a faceless man or trained with them at some point and learned their powers.  That would give him the ability to skinchange and appear to be someone else, while killing Balon with his own hand.  It would also allow him to torment Aeron by appearing to him as Urri.  He may have also learned the ways of the ruins of Valyria from the Faceless, which may have been invaluable in acquiring Dragonbinder and the Valyrian Armor.  He's much too into his own identity to be a true Faceless Man, but he could have done what Arya seems to be doing and kept his own identity while learning their ways.

I think that the Dusky Woman is much the same.  Euron can enter her mind at any time and take over control of her.  Once Vic arrives at Mereen, he intends to warg into the Dusky Woman and blow the Horn, which will kill the Dusky Woman, but bind the Dragon to Euron. 

I'm not convinced that Euron is the bad guy, yet.  That seems to clean, too easy.  I also don't think Jon is the good guy.  Also seems too clean and easy.  He's certainly an unsavory character, but Azor A'hai himself was pretty scummy.  This is a guy who murdered his own wife to gain power.  Where was Euron when the red comet first appeared?  Was he in the ruins of Valyria, I wonder?  Azor A'hai is born in Smoke and Salt, right?  Where is it smokier and saltier than that forsaken land.  And 'born' may not mean the actual act of childbirth, but could be more a spiritual rebirth.  He discovered his calling in life, that is.  He could very well be a bad guy to the people of Westeros, he could intend to take the crown and smite his enemies, and rule with an iron fist.  But he could also be Azor A'hai and lead humanity to victory over the great other. 

That said, the dead gods in Aeron's vision...I find it curious that the Great Other isn't mentioned.  Nor is the Storm God (the opposition deity to the Drowned God).  Obviously, the old gods are also missing.  Any other missing gods?  Seems like that could be telling about Euron's true nature.  Also, having said that, and linking back to my earlier point, perhaps Euron does represent the destruction of the world as it is.  Perhaps he leads humanity into a new age by throwing down the Others, the Old and New and Foreign Gods.  Or, I guess, it could be that he throws down humanity. 

What of "Dragons, Krakens, and Sphinxes" - could be that these are literal dragons and krakens.  But while Dragonbinder binds a dragon to the someone, supposedly, it doesn't summon them.  I read somewhere that the ruling family of Cracklaw Point is rumored to have a horn that can summon Krakens.  But I think that Sphinxes aren't real creatures even in Planetos.  There are statues of them in many places, especially in Essos. 

The other possibility is that these are people or Houses.  Dragons being Targaryens.  But Krakens are the Greyjoys themselves.  Maybe that just means the Ironborn in general?  If so, does that mean that the Dragons are Dany with her armies?  But what of the Sphinx?  That's the most interesting part.  There's a quote somewhere that the Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler.  So, I think that rules out Alleras, who I don't really see how she could be important enough to be included in such a vision.  Unless the Sphinx (Alleras) becomes the Shadow bride?

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When it comes to considering the bathing in blood thing with Shiera, I think it's worth noting that sorcerers maintaining their beauty and prolonging their life in ASOIAF is an established fact.

On bathing in blood, well we know it's not just a rumour that warlocks do this, its also a factual thing, they did it to a POV character.

That bathing in blood can achieve anything relating to youthfulness or beauty or anything at all is obviously another matter.

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17 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Kudos for picking up those biblical references. I ain't too au fait with the good book myself, but I suppose there are also echoes of Cain and Abel in Euron killing his brothers, and of Job in Aeron's suffering and temptations.

My frame of reference is considerably more vulgar, but Euron reminds me of a few great villains - the Joker, sure, but also Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men and the sheriff from Pop. 1280, both of whom seem to have moved beyond ordinary human considerations of right and wrong. The sheriff - spoiler alert! - even literally comes to see himself as the second coming of Christ, and Chigurh at least sees himself as an avatar of fate, or the judgment of the universe.

With that in mind, I don't consider Euron's war on the gods to be proof of atheism; and when he claims to be a god, he's not just taunting Aeron. I think that reveals something about how he sees the world, and his place in it. Maybe he doesn't literally consider himself a god, but he certainly seems to think himself profoundly superior to the rest of humanity. He's nek-levellin' it.

His war on gods to me is derivative of a very nacisist personae. I never saw in the history of religion a single "God" (focus on capital) that doesn't preach order, for instance. To me, Euron is a really smart, esoteric, narcisist and hedonistic guy. Very powerful combination for a chaotic player. IMO, that would be absolutely on his character to help Dany sit on Iron Throne just to, the second after "humpf, nevermind, not fun anymore. I'll antagonize you now".

Edited by Ironborn Hero

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First thought about Euron and a woman with white fire on the throne of skulls in Aeron's dream/vision was that she is actually Quiathe. And it is pure symbolics that lead me to this conclusion. I will do my best to avoid any further theorizing.

A worlock with no legs who repeatedly screams "Pree" is on the ship.

It looks like to me that "Pree, Pree! Preee!" is actually an answer to earlier question. This worlock is clearly took captive, he has been interogated, tormented, his legs cut off and broken at the end - when he finally screamed Pree. 

Pree is the main worlock of the House of the Undying, HoTU is in Qarth and Qaithe also lives there. I dont remember honestly if she is described as tall, but she is definitly a big player with that glass candle (which she used a couple of times to send visions to Dany) and hidden face. (Marwin also has a glass candle and he's going to Dany).

And, IIRC, glass candle burned with white fire when had been found in Marwin's chamber.

 

 

Edited by wolfinho

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8 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

 

Not a mass sacrifice, two sacrifices, himself and his child. That's why he needs Dany, he needs a 'heir worth of him', the him is Drogon and he needs blood the blood of the dragon. The blood betrayal. To fly he has to jump from the tower, die, and that's what will happen when he blows the horn. But, he'll get something back, he trades his blood, he gets back fire. He becomes the dragon, supplanting Drogo inside of Drogon, the second head of the dragon, the mount to dread.

And, because Euron will have Greyscale, Drogon will become the stone dragon, and because Euron is kraken descending from another race, drogon will develop kraken or sea dragon features. He'll be a miss-match, like a sphinx. Then comes the third act, Dany trying to wake her dragon from stone, requiring pure dragon blood in her nissa nissa to bring Drogon back to her.

And the tower from which Euron blows the horn and takes flight as the Stone Beast will be Storm's End, during one of those epic once every 77 year but not really storms, as Euron is the first and the last storm.

Capering and laughing brings to mind mischief and trickery, and with forests burning runs well into this Grey King feat.

Storm God being Dany the Stormborn.

You're making a lot of leaps. 

And no, Euron isn't just sacrificing his kid, gf and Aeron. He's sacrificing all the other priests too to mass murder and sacrifice the Redwyne fleet too 

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Euron is Saruman: 

 

Euron’s definitely invading Oldtown after his colossal blood sacrifice of both fleets (h/t Steven Attewell) and his attendant metaphysical power-up. We see at the end of AFFC that he’s already sent a force to the city to pave his way, and I agree with @baphomet313 that the sphinxes kneeling to Euron Bloodeye in Damphair’s vision link to the sphinx statues guarding the Citadel, thus symbolizing Euron’s conquest of Oldtown and its various repositories of knowledge and power. Indeed, GRRM dropped a clue in “The Reaver” that the Crow’s Eye will end up at the Hightower: “Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How we will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?” IMO the “leap” is into the metaphysical abyss of the Others’ invasion; Euron blows the Horn of Joramun from atop the Hightower. Remember Pate relating the claim that you can see all the way to the Wall from up there? No way that’s literally true, of course, but again, I think it’s foreshadowing.

I think he arrives in Oldtown as a dragonrider, yes. Vic blows Dragonbinder (and burn from within) in his second TWOW chapter, the dragon caught by it takes off westward, and we next see it again being ridden by Euron. For him to have ensorceled Fire with one horn even as he summons Ice with another is the perfect encapsulation of Euron’s MO, namely conquering all meta-narratives, absorbing all ideologies (even oppositional ones) into his singular stew of eldritch evil. It’s entirely possible he’s got some kraken/Deep Ones related force at his command, too, after the aforementioned sacrifice on the open water. Not for nothing did GRRM have both Varys and Valena Toland, three books apart, report krakens rising from the depths. And we know from WOIAF that the Deep Ones built the base of the aforementioned Hightower. If I’m right that Euron is ASOIAF Saruman to the Others’ Sauron, that the old gods are his Valar, the glass candles his palantir, and the Hightower his Orthanc, well…he needs him some Uruk-Hai, and the Deep Ones fit the half-human bill disturbingly well. 

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Just before Aeron is taken to the ship near the end of the chapter, Aeron tells us, "Something has changed. Something has happened." What do you supposed happened and changed? 

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Nothing, at least nothing good for him. Maybe death would be a good thing comparing to what Euron could do to him, but in the end Dumphair is done. Aeron wrongs, he is blinded by his fate, as every godly man/woman. He lies to himself desiring his god reaction. 

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Aeron's first vision...

Quote

“Your god will come for you tonight. Some god, at least.” 

Euron thinks of himself as a god, doesn't he? Isn't it likely that Euron is inspiring and shaping the shade-of-the-evening visions? 

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And when the Damphair slept, sagging in his chains, he heard the creak of a rusted hinge. 

“Urri!” he cried. There is no hinge here, no door, no Urri. His brother Urrigon was long dead, yet there he stood. One arm was black and swollen, stinking with maggots, but he was still Urri, still a boy, no older than the day he died. 

“You know what waits below the sea, brother?” 

“The Drowned God,” Aeron said, “the watery halls.” 

Urri shook his head. “Worms… worms await you, Aeron.” 

When he laughed his face sloughed off and the priest saw that it was not Urri but Euron, the smiling eye hidden.

See what I mean? Euron really is in Aeron's head. 

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He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him. 

The dwarfs have to be Tyrion and Penny, no? Is the burning forest the Kingswood? Doesn't this vision suggest that Euron will take, or intends to take, King's Landing and to seize the Iron Throne? 

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“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” 

Does Euron believe that he is this new charnel-born god? 

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Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him.

We have a dragon horn in Slaver's Bay, and a kraken horn in the Narrow Sea. But we don't have sphinx horn. If the dragons, krakens, and sphinxes are metaphorical, Daenerys would be the dragon, no? This seems likely given that Tyrion is going to be caperin for him. The krakens would be the Ironmen, no? Could Aegon be the sphinx? 

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“Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.” 

“Never. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair!” 

“Why would I want that hard black rock? Brother, look again and see where I am seated.” 

Aeron Damphair looked. The mound of skulls was gone. Now it was metal underneath the Crow’s Eye: a great, tall, twisted seat of razor sharp iron, barbs and blades and broken swords, all dripping blood. 

This further suggests that Euron will, or intends to, seize the Iron Throne. 

Quote

Impaled upon the longer spikes were the bodies of the gods. The Maiden was there and the Father and the Mother, the Warrior and Crone and Smith…even the Stranger. They hung side by side with all manner of queer foreign gods: the Great Shepherd and the Black Goat, three-headed Trios and the Pale Child Bakkalon, the Lord of Light and the butterfly god of Naath. 

And there, swollen and green, half­-devoured by crabs, the Drowned God festered with the rest, seawater still dripping from his hair. Then, Euron Crow’s Eye laughed again, and the priest woke screaming in the bowels of Silence, as piss ran down his leg. It was only a dream, a vision born of foul black wine.

Euron is anathema to these gods. If this is Euron, he is suggesting that these gods cannot stop him. 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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On 6/1/2016 at 0:30 PM, Good Guy Garlan said:

Yeah, apparently that's the level of sophistication we're dealing with here :/

Complicated = interesting for me

In my opinion, there's nothing interesting about a moustache twirling villain who's evil for the sake of being evil and wants to - get this - rule the world. 

You can dress a one-note character in Valyrian steel, but it'll still be a one-note character. 

 

When you look at the text as a whole, and look at the literary constructs themselves as a text that can be read, or analyzed you have two emerging patterns:

The actual story and characters themselves highlighting: "no matter how bad the human, the real threat lies to the north." this shown by the fact that as readers we know the issue in the north is the real deal and the other battles are petty.

when viewing the Eurons arch specifically in tandem with the progression of bad guys you see: for Euron, the squabble/prize gets bigger: the seastone chair -> the iron throne-> the world.

meanwhile throughout the whole of the text the bad guys keep getting worse: joffrey -> roose-> ramsay -> Euron,

and yet the problem beyond the wall is still the most threatening. 

its not too far fetched that George worked these trajectories in tandem to highlight one of his major points. Meaning that within the whole structure of the book, the literary devices themselves could be read as a way of saying that as winter gets closer, the bad guys get more one dimensional as a way metaphorically pointing out that they are not important. 

 

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2 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

You beat me to posting this! I really enjoyed the deep dive in regards to the religious symbolism in "The Forsaken" chapter. Along with it being extremely interesting I thought it was a nice break from the debate about whether or not Euron is the "Dark Lord" of ASOIAF, what the repercussions of that may or may not be, is having a totally evil character boring or not, etc and really just focused on the comparison between Euron and Satan and Aeron's spiritual POV. Thought is was a great read.

 

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