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[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

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For some reason Aeron came across as way more likable for me, maybe because this chapter really show cased how much of an animal Euron is but Aeron just seemed less annoying even though he kept droning on about the Drowned God. Euron has always come across as creepy and what he did to Blacktyde was disturbing but he's setting up to be the scariest villain we've seen in my opinion, obviously not the most realistic but to me he is even more unsettling than Roose or Ramsay. 

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9 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

For some reason Aeron came across as way more likable for me, maybe because this chapter really show cased how much of an animal Euron is but Aeron just seemed less annoying even though he kept droning on about the Drowned God. Euron has always come across as creepy and what he did to Blacktyde was disturbing but he's setting up to be the scariest villain we've seen in my opinion, obviously not the most realistic but to me he is even more unsettling than Roose or Ramsay. 

He's unsettling, but not realistic, it remains to be seen how or if this will work well as the rest of the story unfolds.

  Roose was a great villain because his actions made sense and his cruelty was in measured doses.  He cut your tongue out if you back talked or told tales.  He pretty much takes no prisoners and kills all his enemies.   But he was someone who, if you lived by his rules, might survive.  Ramsay is a more straight up pyschopath, he enjoys hurting people and he hurts more people randomly and with purpose than his father, but he has no great ambition or world view..he's a malevolent presence, and as Roose himself says, he'll never even make it as Lord of the Dreadfort if he doesn't dial it back.  Euron, is so over the top, the question is, does he really fit with these more realistically drawn bad guys...  I didn't like him prior to this chapter, but the collecting priests and Valyrian armor make him more interesting...but I don't know that this will make him interesting enough to sustain a major major role.

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17 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Aeron's first vision...

Euron thinks of himself as a god, doesn't he? Isn't it likely that Euron is inspiring and shaping the shade-of-the-evening visions?

Euron portrays himself as a living god when talking to Aeron, yes, but does this mean he himself actually believes that? Probably not. Aeron's dream image of Euron actually repeating or reinforcing what real Euron has said doesn't mean that Euron is causing those visions consciously. Just as me feeding somebody hallucinogenic drugs after I've taunted, mocked, and terrified him with certain things doesn't mean I directly cause his visions and dreams thereafter.

If Euron truly was seeing himself as a god his goons most likely wouldn't address him as 'Your Grace' but rather using 'Your Holiness' or 'Your Godhead' or some other ridiculous styling. Living gods are seldom modest, after all.

17 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

See what I mean? Euron really is in Aeron's head.

Well, his image is in Aeron, not he himself. The man is terribly afraid of his brother, and even more so after he confesses what he has done to Harlon, Robin, and Balon. Aeron sees the world from his religious perspective, and he has real troubles to cope with Euron's worldly success in light of his utter depravity. Not to mention that he still suffers from being abused by Euron as a child.

17 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The dwarfs have to be Tyrion and Penny, no? Is the burning forest the Kingswood? Doesn't this vision suggest that Euron will take, or intends to take, King's Landing and to seize the Iron Throne? 

That Euron intends to seize the Iron Throne is nothing new at all. And thus the visions and dreams didn't give us anything new. He confessed as much to the assembled lords and captains back at the Kingsmoot.

If there is any visionary or prophetic in Aeron's dreams then the dwarfs most likely are the same dwarfs Dany saw in the House of the Undying. Representations of the false kings tormenting and abusing Westeros. Euron would then, perhaps, be the big false king who grows big and powerful in their shadow. I mean, he is certainly the biggest 'crow' feasting on Westeros the title 'A Feast for Crows' referred to. There are too many dwarfs in the dream for them to refer to Tyrion and Penny.

17 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Does Euron believe that he is this new charnel-born god?

The dream image does. The real Euron does not believe in gods at all. He mocks Aeron with this whole 'become my priest' stuff. He wants to show his little brother that his religion isn't going to save him from him nor is it real. Power is. And Euron has ultimate power over Aeron and all the Ironborn.

We should not forget that Euron is pretty reasonably in his whole Daenerys plan. He certainly wants her as his bride to create a new royal dynasty. He does not want to destroy everything he wants to conquer and rule. His campaign will most likely cause massive suffering and destruction but he certainly doesn't want to kill everybody.

I don't know whether Euron will ever sit the Iron Throne. It is certainly a possibility, I've said so for years, basically. But at this point and in this 'prophetic setting' (a guy being afraid of Euron and that Euron will succeed having some drug-induced nightmares) the images could be more about Euron's wish/intention to succeed than about the actual future.

The sphinxes are a new element but I don't think we can yet determine what those mean if they are not another mystical/magical creature Aeron's demented mind included into his dream. The only symbolic sphinx we know as of yet is Alleras-Sarella and she will most likely not join Euron in any sense. But then, sphinxes could become important as the story progresses, as of yet the only we know of are the ones at the Citadel, the ones in the Small Council chamber, and the big ones in Essos. All of them are of Valyrian origin, though.

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22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aeron's dream image of Euron actually repeating or reinforcing what real Euron has said doesn't mean that Euron is causing those visions consciously. Just as me feeding somebody hallucinogenic drugs after I've taunted, mocked, and terrified him with certain things doesn't mean I directly cause his visions and dreams thereafter.

You are a real person (I think) not a character in The George's fantasy. 

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25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, his image is in Aeron, not he himself. The man is terribly afraid of his brother, and even more so after he confesses what he has done to Harlon, Robin, and Balon. Aeron sees the world from his religious perspective, and he has real troubles to cope with Euron's worldly success in light of his utter depravity. Not to mention that he still suffers from being abused by Euron as a child.

If Euron had a glass candle or greenseeing ability, would you think Euron was inspiring these visions? Like Bloodraven inspired Jaimie's vision in Storm? Or Quaithe inspired Daenerys's vision aboard Balerion? 

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34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That Euron intends to seize the Iron Throne is nothing new at all. And thus the visions and dreams didn't give us anything new. He confessed as much to the assembled lords and captains back at the Kingsmoot.

Not everything has to be new. We already knew Euron had buggered we Aeron, didn't we? 

Quote

There are too many dwarfs in the dream for them to refer to Tyrion and Penny.

Please point out for me where the number of dwarfs was stated. 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The sphinxes are a new element but I don't think we can yet determine what those mean if they are not another mystical/magical creature Aeron's demented mind included into his dream. The only symbolic sphinx we know as of yet is Alleras-Sarella and she will most likely not join Euron in any sense. But then, sphinxes could become important as the story progresses, as of yet the only we know of are the ones at the Citadel, the ones in the Small Council chamber, and the big ones in Essos. All of them are of Valyrian origin, though.

A sphinx is a chimera. Chimeras are often used by artists to represent fraud. 

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

He's unsettling, but not realistic, it remains to be seen how or if this will work well as the rest of the story unfolds.

  Roose was a great villain because his actions made sense and his cruelty was in measured doses.  He cut your tongue out if you back talked or told tales.  He pretty much takes no prisoners and kills all his enemies.   But he was someone who, if you lived by his rules, might survive.  Ramsay is a more straight up pyschopath, he enjoys hurting people and he hurts more people randomly and with purpose than his father, but he has no great ambition or world view..he's a malevolent presence, and as Roose himself says, he'll never even make it as Lord of the Dreadfort if he doesn't dial it back.  Euron, is so over the top, the question is, does he really fit with these more realistically drawn bad guys...  I didn't like him prior to this chapter, but the collecting priests and Valyrian armor make him more interesting...but I don't know that this will make him interesting enough to sustain a major major role.

 

The Iron Born only follow the strong and Euron if nothing else has shown that he's a very smart military leader. One of my biggest issues with the Iron Born was, why any of them would follow Balon into war, once the main series started. He seems like a weak old man at that point and as far as we know the guy didn't even fight on the battlefield in his first rebellion. Euron on the other hand is fighting on the front lines like Robert Baratheon and inspiring loyalty through victories and giving most of his plunder to his men. The guy might be a psycho, but from a military stand point he's a genius.

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

He's unsettling, but not realistic, it remains to be seen how or if this will work well as the rest of the story unfolds.

  Roose was a great villain because his actions made sense and his cruelty was in measured doses.  He cut your tongue out if you back talked or told tales.  He pretty much takes no prisoners and kills all his enemies.   But he was someone who, if you lived by his rules, might survive.  Ramsay is a more straight up pyschopath, he enjoys hurting people and he hurts more people randomly and with purpose than his father, but he has no great ambition or world view..he's a malevolent presence, and as Roose himself says, he'll never even make it as Lord of the Dreadfort if he doesn't dial it back.  Euron, is so over the top, the question is, does he really fit with these more realistically drawn bad guys...  I didn't like him prior to this chapter, but the collecting priests and Valyrian armor make him more interesting...but I don't know that this will make him interesting enough to sustain a major major role.

He's certainly not realistic but I think it's time we had a villain more aligned with the supernatural elements. Euron is clearly unhinged but at the same time intelligent, not sure what made him this way but seems he was just born a monster which makes it less interesting but you can see why that would be magnifies by the Ironborn culture. I really wasn't that optimistic about Euron before the chapter, he was charismatic and all but the Ironborn were so weak I couldn't see a way for him to make much trouble for Westeros but now I'm not so sure

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One important thing to note is :

And so, Aeron Damphair returned to the salt sea. A dozen longships were drawn up at the wharf below the castle, and twice as many beached along the strand. Familiar banners streamed from their masts: the Greyjoy kraken, the bloody moon of Wynch, the warhorn of the Goodbrothers. But from their sterns flew a flag the priest had never seen before: a red eye with a black pupil beneath an iron crown supported by two crows.

Beyond them, a host of merchant ships floated on a tranquil, turquoise sea. Cogs, carracks, fishing boats, even a great cog, a swollen sow of a ship as big as the Leviathan. Prizes of war, the Damphair knew.

 

This is not Eurons entire fleet. he had hundred of longships. those are just a bunch of houses really.

Therefore, most likely euron will use these ships as decoy.. destroying them alogside the redywine fleet with whatever magic he is working.. except for those with priests on their prows.

 

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Another great dream sequence.

Urri's face sloughing off to reveal Euron reminds me of Roberts face fissuring and breaking to reveal Littlefinger.

Blackened skulls, I guess he does get control of a dragon/s?

Dwarves capering at his feet?  

A forest burning behind him; Kingswood, or is he an enemy of the Children, or just his general destruction?

Dragons, krakens, and sphinxes bowing to him, no idea, but don't think it's literal.  Why the Sphinx?  Seems out of place.

Iron throne dripping blood, his bloody path to the throne?

Longships adrift, burning on a boiling, blood-red sea.  A reference to dragons, the sea around Valyria, or his impact on the iron fleet?

A woman with a large shadow, I don't see it as Cersei, but Tyrion cast a large shadow as well.

Dwarves capering again?  No idea what's going on with the dwarves.

 

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5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You are a real person (I think) not a character in The George's fantasy. 

Nope, I'm a figment of your imagination. You should get off that shade of the evening. Would any real person behave like I do ;-)?

I just don't buy that Euron would give Aeron such images if he was in his mind. He could rape him again like he did back when he was a child or really torture him in some way.

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If Euron had a glass candle or greenseeing ability, would you think Euron was inspiring these visions? Like Bloodraven inspired Jaimie's vision in Storm? Or Quaithe inspired Daenerys's vision aboard Balerion? 

For that there would be no shade of the evening needed. Besides, we don't know that Euron owns a glass candle. I'm not saying he doesn't, but he never indicated he had one.

 

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Not everything has to be new. We already knew Euron had buggered we Aeron, didn't we? 

Nope, we did not. There was a pretty good hint at sexual abuse but it could also have just been Euron beating him without explicit sexual stuff going on. And we don't really know if there was any buggering involved yet. Euron's goons presumably weren't there back then.

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Please point out for me where the number of dwarfs was stated. 

It isn't, but they do more than just two things. Or one, actually, you cannot fuck each other and at the same time do other stuff, and there is no indication that whatever the dwarfs did didn't occur simultaneously.

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

A sphinx is a chimera. Chimeras are often used by artists to represent fraud. 

The Greek sphinx (female) stands embodies the whole riddle/riddler stuff thanks to the Oedipus but the Egyptian sphinx is actually male and has nothing to do with this stuff.

Aside from Sarella nobody has really been associated with sphinxes in the series as of yet, so I see no real way to make a good connection there. Assuming there sphinxes actually are going to show up in a way in the series. I think we are also not expecting Euron to transform into Cthulhu despite the visions indicating something like that. Although I've to admit that would be fun.

1 hour ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

This is not Eurons entire fleet. he had hundred of longships. those are just a bunch of houses really.

Therefore, most likely euron will use these ships as decoy.. destroying them alogside the redywine fleet with whatever magic he is working.. except for those with priests on their prows.

That could certainly be. Noteworthy is any case that there are no Harlaws to be seen. Is the Reader going to stay with Euron? Or will he defect to the Redwynes or the Hightowers? The man is not stupid, after all.

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On 2.6.2016 at 11:25 PM, Lord Varys said:

I really don't get this 'Euron is completely evil' thing.

Why not? What about the things he did to Falia Flowers? I think GRRM are using the circumstances of her demise to underline how evil Euron is. I really dont know how to redeem that guy after the last sentences of this chapter (+ every cruel thing he did so far).

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This was very, very effective chapter, maybe one of the best chapters in the series in my opinion. Why? Well because it played me. No correct that, it showed me how previous chapters played me. 

See thing is, I really liked Euron, not necessarily wanting him for buddy, but he was awesome character, the kind of villain you really root for because he is awesome, like evil Jack Sparrow or every good Magnificent Bastard villain. To put it in story context character I viewed him similarly to Littlefinger, but Euron is as brilliant as Littlefinger, plus flamboyant and slightly unhinged, and also much more awesome, come on he is baddest and most badass pirate coming from the society of badass pirates while Littlefinger smirk, schemes and swoons over underage girl. And of course look at Euron's quotes, he has best awesome per word ratio in the books, every second line is pure genius, Roose or Varys can get even close, not even Tyrion or Jaime. You absolutly turn a blind eye to the few more unsavory things for a guy like that.

And then it turns out that he is slightly more evil than that, and by slightly I mean incomparably more. We actually either see this or hear it from him or Aeron, it's different than some rumors, he really is that bad. He just jumped to the first place of evil dudes in ASOIAF and there are pretty evil dudes in ASOIAF, but they are boy scouts compared to Euron, whatever was their worst act Euron does it twice a week and adds some stuff that would make Ramsey flinch. He is also only character so far to be both master player and passionate sadist. He is as evil as human can be, given the hints of his magical abilities, it's almost can be said that he is evil more than a human can be. Shift in characterization is that he is not end-justifies-means kind of guy who uses cruelty and oppression to gain power, Euron sees power as a vessel to enable him wider array of cruelty and oppression on wider scale.

That is a thing, this chapter has showed me that I have been played, as Ironborn have been played, to like Euron because he is awesome and larger-than-life while ignoring the clues pointing to the fact he is evil beyond comprehension. And clues were there but were minor, ambiguous and uncertain, and were overlooked because of Euron's charismatic flamboyancy. "Maddest of them all" is the one I remembered immediately, I thought that referred to his unconventionality and eccentricity but now I see it does not, he really is the maddest and not just of Greyjoys.

Stakes are upped with other stuff, he probably was in Valyria and he has Valyrian steel armor, which is something new so far, and as much as I heard people complaining about Martin pulling it out of his ass as we haven't heard one mention of something like that even existing so far, it's not like Euron pulled out Valyrian steel Desert Eagle 0.50, it is plausable and it establishes Euron as the next level guy and it is insignificant compared to his blood-magic powered fleet which is bound to start increasing religious adherence in Westeros any time soon.

Euron is still far more likable then every outright villain in ASOIAF, even as he is far worse. But now it's pretty hard to root for him, he is not doing it for some greater goal like say Tywin did, he isn't harsh but just, he wouldn't even care for "peaceful land, quiet people".

On a side note, Greyjoys were always giving of that Lovecraftian vibe but this chapter takes it few steps further, but then agian, Euron seems like the kind of guy to be in cahoots with Gol-goroth.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

One important thing to note is :

And so, Aeron Damphair returned to the salt sea. A dozen longships were drawn up at the wharf below the castle, and twice as many beached along the strand. Familiar banners streamed from their masts: the Greyjoy kraken, the bloody moon of Wynch, the warhorn of the Goodbrothers. But from their sterns flew a flag the priest had never seen before: a red eye with a black pupil beneath an iron crown supported by two crows.

Beyond them, a host of merchant ships floated on a tranquil, turquoise sea. Cogs, carracks, fishing boats, even a great cog, a swollen sow of a ship as big as the Leviathan. Prizes of war, the Damphair knew.

 

This is not Eurons entire fleet. he had hundred of longships. those are just a bunch of houses really.

Therefore, most likely euron will use these ships as decoy.. destroying them alogside the redywine fleet with whatever magic he is working.. except for those with priests on their prows.

 

Please remind me where we were told he had 100 longships. 

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What struck me in this chapter is this passage:  “Why should I want to hold them?” His brother’s smiling eye glittered in the lantern light, blue and bold and full of malice. “The Shields have served my purpose. I took them with one hand, and gave them away with the other. A great king is open-­handed, brother. It is up to the new lords to hold them now. The glory of winning those rocks will be mine forever. When they are lost, the defeat will belong to the four fools who so eagerly accepted my gifts.”

Euron is expecting the Shields to be lost, and he doesn't care. Combined with this part of one of Aeron's visions: "He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood­-red sea " , I don't revise my opinion that the Ironborn will rue the day they raised Euron.

It does look like he will defeat or cripple the Redwyne fleet with magic, but his actual goal remains Dany and that means he has to go after her sooner or later. And since he seems to be a match for Red Priests, I fear for Moqorro and Victarion, in that case.

Theon may well came into play later, after the Shields and the rest have been lost again and the longships are burned or adrift.

Otherwise the chapter isn't that shocking. Euron's game plan has been suspected for quite some time.

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This is one of the best Chapters, if not THE best chapter I have read in all the books. It sticks with you, into your mind, and expands, branches out and grows. Pretty amazing. 

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10 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Please remind me where we were told he had 100 longships. 


"hundreds" i meant to say.

IIRC in a small council, cersei is told a thousand ships were attacking the reach.

probably exageranted reports, but the point is Euron has more longships than those that Aeron sees.. He is sending ships he captured and a small number of longships as decoy. his true strengh will remain behind.

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4 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

This was very, very effective chapter, maybe one of the best chapters in the series in my opinion. Why? Well because it played me. No correct that, it showed me how previous chapters played me. 

See thing is, I really liked Euron, not necessarily wanting him for buddy, but he was awesome character, the kind of villain you really root for because he is awesome, like evil Jack Sparrow or every good Magnificent Bastard villain. To put it in story context character I viewed him similarly to Littlefinger, but Euron is as brilliant as Littlefinger, plus flamboyant and slightly unhinged, and also much more awesome, come on he is baddest and most badass pirate coming from the society of badass pirates while Littlefinger smirk, schemes and swoons over underage girl. And of course look at Euron's quotes, he has best awesome per word ratio in the books, every second line is pure genius, Roose or Varys can get even close, not even Tyrion or Jaime. You absolutly turn a blind eye to the few more unsavory things for a guy like that.

And then it turns out that he is slightly more evil than that, and by slightly I mean incomparably more. We actually either see this or hear it from him or Aeron, it's different than some rumors, he really is that bad. He just jumped to the first place of evil dudes in ASOIAF and there are pretty evil dudes in ASOIAF, but they are boy scouts compared to Euron, whatever was their worst act Euron does it twice a week and adds some stuff that would make Ramsey flinch. He is also only character so far to be both master player and passionate sadist. He is as evil as human can be, given the hints of his magical abilities, it's almost can be said that he is evil more than a human can be. Shift in characterization is that he is not end-justifies-means kind of guy who uses cruelty and oppression to gain power, Euron sees power as a vessel to enable him wider array of cruelty and oppression on wider scale.

That is a thing, this chapter has showed me that I have been played, as Ironborn have been played, to like Euron because he is awesome and larger-than-life while ignoring the clues pointing to the fact he is evil beyond comprehension. And clues were there but were minor, ambiguous and uncertain, and were overlooked because of Euron's charismatic flamboyancy. "Maddest of them all" is the one I remembered immediately, I thought that referred to his unconventionality and eccentricity but now I see it does not, he really is the maddest and not just of Greyjoys.

Stakes are upped with other stuff, he probably was in Valyria and he has Valyrian steel armor, which is something new so far, and as much as I heard people complaining about Martin pulling it out of his ass as we haven't heard one mention of something like that even existing so far, it's not like Euron pulled out Valyrian steel Desert Eagle 0.50, it is plausable and it establishes Euron as the next level guy and it is insignificant compared to his blood-magic powered fleet which is bound to start increasing religious adherence in Westeros any time soon.

Euron is still far more likable then every outright villain in ASOIAF, even as he is far worse. But now it's pretty hard to root for him, he is not doing it for some greater goal like say Tywin did, he isn't harsh but just, he wouldn't even care for "peaceful land, quiet people".

On a side note, Greyjoys were always giving of that Lovecraftian vibe but this chapter takes it few steps further, but then agian, Euron seems like the kind of guy to be in cahoots with Gol-goroth.

 

 

 

 

The interesting thing is that both of Euron's brothers were terrified of the guy. Neither Aeron or Victarion are cowards, far from it. But when they thought of Euron they went into full out panic mode. This should have told everyone just how terrible Euron was.

However, most people talked about how boring Aeron was and couldn't GRRM have given his boring POV to someone more interesting. And they talked about how stupid Victarion was and couldn't GRRM have cut Victarion's POV since it was just filler.

So, in some cases (not all), self-indulgent whining won out over reading comprehension.

Not saying this is what happened in your case though.

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Warlocks have ability to see into the future. Anybody think the warlocks who casted blood magic on Samwell (under the guise of making him braver), did it because they forsaw Euron capturing the warlocks and wanted to aid Sam against Euron ?

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