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[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

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15 hours ago, bent branch said:

You say that like being Azor Ahai is a good thing.

Amen to that. Not sure why people have such faith in that AA bring a savior. Any religion closely connected to Asshai is not to be trusted imo..

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On 6/10/2016 at 10:10 AM, OuttaOldtown said:

Amen to that. Not sure why people have such faith in that AA bring a savior. Any religion closely connected to Asshai is not to be trusted imo..

OK.  Azor Azai is not a "Lawful Good" character.  We get that.  But he is a sacrificial, non-selfish person either.   He / she will sacrifice himself to save the world.   Anyone who thinks Azor-Azai, Dany, Jon, Tyrion is walking away from the end of these books is just plain not paying attention.

But at a minimum he's not a sadistic a-hole idiot like Victarion.  

Victarion is not Azor Ahai.   Stop being contrarian people.  Its just not a reasonable thinking man's position.

 

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4 hours ago, Mark the Red said:

OK.  Azor Azai is not a "Lawful Good" character.  We get that.  But he is a sacrificial, non-selfish person either.   He / she will sacrifice himself to save the world.   Anyone who thinks Azor-Azai, Dany, Jon, Tyrion is walking away from the end of these books is just plain not paying attention.

But at a minimum he's not a sadistic a-hole idiot like Victarion.  

Victarion is not Azor Ahai.   Stop being contrarian people.  Its just not a reasonable thinking man's position.

 

 I do like Victarion as a character. I think it's his slow-wittedness. GRRM makes it come across really well, and you get the impression that this man, a product of his culture, would be a decent guy if raised differently. He's a horrible person, but he manages to not be as horrible as some. No, he shouldn't get a prize for that. GRRM keeps reminding us of Victarion's casual cruelty and his guilt. He's not an admirable man, but I'd like to see him teaming up with characters who are. 

Euron, on the other hand, seems like he'd be scheming and murdering his way to power whatever the circumstances of his birth. 

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On 10. 6. 2016 at 2:06 AM, Cas Stark said:

What did she think was going to happen, forcing a bunch of girls to strip naked in rooms full of iron born reavers?  LOL.

Honestly, I don't think Falia is much of a thinker. She was being mean and wanted her half-sisters humiliated just as they had been humiliating her, but I doubt that she suggested stripping them with the idea of rape on her mind. Foolish, silly girl. Makes me think of Jeyne Pool, or Sansa before she got her lesson.

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On 11/06/2016 at 8:22 PM, Mark the Red said:

OK.  Azor Azai is not a "Lawful Good" character.  We get that.  But he is a sacrificial, non-selfish person either.   He / she will sacrifice himself to save the world.   Anyone who thinks Azor-Azai, Dany, Jon, Tyrion is walking away from the end of these books is just plain not paying attention.

But at a minimum he's not a sadistic a-hole idiot like Victarion.  

Victarion is not Azor Ahai.   Stop being contrarian people.  Its just not a reasonable thinking man's position.

 

I believe the whole Azor Ahai problem is that the intial one *didn't* - he sacrificed his wife, the person he loved most AFTER himself. And I think, if the myth is true, that he got it wrong.

My question is, will the next Azor Ahai be the one that gets it right?

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So much to speculate about on Euron.  

Is it possible in his raiding that he perceives how weak and chaotic Westeros has become and decides to raid KL instead of going to Mereen?

Edited by TheReal_Rebel

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8 hours ago, TheReal_Rebel said:

So much to speculate about on Euron.  

Is it possible in his raiding that he perceives how weak and chaotic Westeros has become and decides to raid KL instead of going to Mereen?

He's not going to Mereen.  If he did, it would be a colossal waste of time since Mereen will be a smoking hole in the ground after Drogon burns it to its foundations. 

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Lots of really cool stuff being discussed.  LOTS.  But I still contend The Damphair chapters are BAF.  It is Euron that is providing all the interest here.  Aeron is just the window.

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Printed out AngryGOF's transcript today, the one with ASOIAF edition-style font and  Aeron's thoughts in the same italics. Got a delicious sense of vindication, even comfort,  from it. I walk around with it in my shoulder-bag as a talisman against all the stupidity on the show these days. (Eg: it's great to know that there's one more character who remains a believer in his religion, or  Higher Power, even as his world crumbles around him...like Davos as he clings to the rocks, or Sam at the First of the First Men, etc. Aeron's continued devotion to the DG during his ordeal, even after he has given up all hope of rescue, is strangely moving. It's an  "Eloi, Eloi..." moment to be sure but if he has stopped believing he would have "cursed god and died." Instead, he offers poor Falia the same comfort he uses to get himself through his ordeal. Else-wise, he'd say nothing to her, he'd think it was all a lie.

 

(I've seen posts referencing the show in this thread...please, try not to. We are talking books here, since this is a book chapter, and the show has so utterly distorted the characters and their arcs that it is best to think of them as 2 seperate things. I say this as an open-minded book reader, as someone who used to love the show, even as recently as the middle of season 5, but is becoming very disillusioned about it. On the show, for example, no-one prays even offscreen, everyone is either an athiest or doesn't care, and the one person who did, Ian McShane's septon character, was killed off minutes after he appeared onscreen.

Someone in another thread recently posited that ASOIAF was not just realistic, it was also idealistic in a strange way that gives you hope for humanity,  and  the show is just the opposite: deeply and needlessly cynical,  and soul-crushing as a result, and this is why the show, for all its strengths, can never be redeemed. It's a **fantastic** post that I wished I'd written. I plan to copy parts of it for the "Fair Game" thread, if anyone's interested, it's on pg 12 or 13 of the "The North Storyline is Worse Than Dorne" thread,  under the "GOT Casting" section in the GOT section of the Forum.

 

As to what's in this chapter.....holy &^*^%! Not late to the part here, just to posting about it. I have o read the Euron is Satan essay too.I read "The Forsaken"  2 days after the transcripts appeared and it's still....epic as heck. I can totally see Euron and Cersei as the Unholy Power Couple of pre-Others invasion Westeros. Dany has her work cut out for her (as does Jamie? I'm one of those who subscribes to the Jamie is the valonqar theory...)

 

Lots of  great stuff in this thread which I hope to add to, when I have the time.

 

EDIT: just began to skim through the "Euron Is Satan" essay. I always get annoyed with those who say that there is no religion in Tolkien. Has George ever said it?

Anyone who says this obviously hasn't read the Silmarillion....just who are the Valar, the Maiar, and the Istari anyway? Who/what is Gandalf if not an archangel? Who is Morgoth if not Lucifer (In the Sil, the Universe was sung into being by a heavenly choir at the command of Eru, or Iluvatar, The One, and things went great until the angelic being who would become Morgoth in his vanity, changed his tune and threw everything into Dischord. Who was Lucifer before he became Lucifer, but the Great Choirmaster, before he rebelled and was cast down from Heaven?) Has anyone read The Collected Letters of JRR Tolkien, where he answers fan letters. Volumes of ink have been spilled about Tolkien's strong Chistianity/Catholicism. But Tolkien  chooses to be much more subtle about it, not to be upfront, in LOTR, anyway. Why this is, people who are way more Tolkien devotees than me know, but there is a reason.

 

The Silmarillion hosts all of Tolkien's invented patheon of "Pagan" gods in the First and Second Ages; while the Third-Age period of LOTR is his personal pean to Christianity. Therefore, these pagan gods he has invented have to remain offscreen, so to speak, even if his characters pray to them, which I'm sure they do.  It's a jarring dischord from the Sil to the time-frame of LOTR if you look at the whole epic of Middle-earth in chronological order, an artistic weakness on  grand scale; but we must accept it for intellectual purposes....or we should, anyway, even if it's wrong.

I could write an essay myself in reply to that first paragraph. There are so many Christian references both in  Tolkien's novels and, strangely enough,  in Peter Jackson's adaptation that I feel like replying here, is there a place on this site where I could do that?

(example: one of my favorite images from the book ROTK is Frodo and Sam in Mordor, at the end of their rope, Frodo collapsing on his knees clutching the Ring to his chest, whispering "Help me Sam, help me! I can't stop it!" and begins to crawl forward on his hands and knees. Sam kneels down beside him, pulls Frodo back up on his knees, and places  the Ring between Frodo's palms, then enfolds Frodo's joined hands between his own two hands. Tolkien says they remained like that for some moments or something, joined "palm to palm" or something, I don't remember the exact words, some people can quote The Professor chapter and verse but I'm not one of them.:) Tolkien doesn't slam us over the head saying "Frodo and Sam are kneeling in prayer" but this is the vivid and powerful image readers get.

Of course Peter Jackson could not replicate this onscreen, it would be too obvious an image; but there are other ways to be subtle in a visual medium. Hence Sam cradling Frodo in a "Pieta"-like pose and briefly--and memorably--looking skyward before launching into his famous "Do you remember the Shire, Mr Frodo?" speech. The Valar could very well have been in Sam's mind at that moment, but of course both Tolkien in the book and Jackson in his scene want us to fill in our own names. This ability they have given us to be able to "fill in our own names" gives the respective scenes their power and breaks the Fourth Wall for a brief and powerful moment; which is what Tolkien intended I guess. Having names of M-e dieties disances the tale from us, locks it behind a Fantasy wall.  But it's a huge artistic risk--he had to have huge confidence in his story to be able to attempt it.

But what the poster must mean is that Tolkien's work would appear a lot more realistic if his characters in LOTR prayed or had a religion "in house", as it were; not what we as readers take from the story. They do, in the Sil; there's Elves and men praying to, and interacting, with the Dieties of Middle-earth. These dieties do not make any appearance in LOTR except for a few very noted occasions, which leaves them mysterious. That may be seen as a flaw by some, esp if you were introduced to Middle-earth though the Sil (which very few people are, thank God; reading the damned thing is more difficult than the King James Old Testament!) but if you read LOTR first, as many do (the Hobbit doesn't count as kid's book) the discovery that there *are* gods and goddesses in Middle-earth, is seen as very annoying. At least it was for me at first.)

 

Sorry for OT but b/c there's no place to reply to that statement in the essay....actually is there an area for discussion of GRRM and religion in the book reader  section? I'm not over there a lot....

Edited by Morna The Maid

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10 hours ago, Hos the Hostage said:

Do you think much of Aeron's tragedy could have been averted if he told his father about Euron's nightly visits?

His father? Maybe, but the Greyjoys all seem like pretty terrible people. And it's not like there was police or teachers or social services he could've called, like in the real world.

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Rereading this chapter yet again, it's really great isn't it. I'm more convinced than ever that Euron is going to trash the Redwyne's and that he'll then turn his gaze to Oldtown. All of this just fits to well with Mel's vision of towers being swept away by a dark and bloody tide :) 

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15 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

His father? Maybe, but the Greyjoys all seem like pretty terrible people. And it's not like there was police or teachers or social services he could've called, like in the real world.

I thought Quellon was trying to reform the Iron Islanders?

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Apologies if this has already been posted!

Just came across something interesting today while rereading ADWD. This is from Jon VI, when he meets Melisandre and mistakes her for Ygritte:

The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. "Take my hand," she said again, "and let me save your sister".

Could it be a hint who the "tall woman with hands of pale fire" is ?

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11 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Apologies if this has already been posted!

Just came across something interesting today while rereading ADWD. This is from Jon VI, when he meets Melisandre and mistakes her for Ygritte:

The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. "Take my hand," she said again, "and let me save your sister".

Could it be a hint who the "tall woman with hands of pale fire" is ?

It is at least intriguing. But I have a lot of difficulty imagining Melisandre ever to hook up with Euron of all people. All of Westeros is between them right now, and it is very difficult to see how such an alliance would be happening.

Not completely impossible, though.

I'm still more inclined to believe the woman is either Aeron's mental image of 'the dragon queen' (he has no idea that she is Daenerys Targaryen because Dany does not come up at the Kingsmoot) or it is a hint towards Euron hooking up with Cersei.

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