Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Free Northman Reborn

[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

Recommended Posts

Quote

Aeron is surprised that Harlon was murdered. He couldn’t move from the greyscale, he had mouth up from the greyscale.  Euron just pinched his nose and looked him in the eye as the life went out of him.

I think in this might be the blueprint for Euron's victory, how he takes Westeros. Set a spark and let the dwarf rat men and women fight it out, plague and winter do it's thing, all the while laughing at their folly with the white fire handed woman, then when nearly everything is destroyed come in and just pinch the nose shut. He doesn't care the land he's taken, doesn't care for the men he's given it to or that he leads, they're all just a means to an end, disposable. And you know those Ironborn of his are going to end up getting royally fucked sooner or later, his gifts are always poison, he basically says so himself in this chapter, he won it and that will last forever, but if it's lost he won't be there for it, it'll be they who lose it.

Regarding Euron cutting out everyone's tongue, I assume it's just because he's mind raping them, skin changing them, and doesn't want the secret to get out. While there may be some measure of passive mind control while he's not specifically in there, I think it's primarily all about information, like the Dusky woman, he wants everything they know, to tap their memories. It might also be a two-way street, in that jumping in them gives them an insight into his mind, stuff he doesn't want getting out into the wild so he cuts their tongue so they can't reveal his secrets.

Edited by chrisdaw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way - Valyrian armor most likely is not going to protect you against dragonfire. The heat should still cook you in the armor, at least as long as you got a decent bit of dragonfire. However, if the glyphs on the armor are magical things might be different.

I wonder if House Royce took the inspiration for their runic armour from these Valyrian-magic-infused sets of armour? 

48 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don't see why a magical ancestor is required for someone to have greenseeing talent. We learn that one man in a million with First Man blood has the greenseeing talent. Given that ratio, Bran and Bloodraven should have a few dozen compatriots spread across Westeros.

Maybe the one in a million was just a figure of speech, so it might be rarer than that. But Euron being one with such a Gift is easily explained within that context.

 

Sure, but let's not forget that everything in this series is the result of the actions of either a Targaryen, a Stark or a Blackwood (or so it appears from time to time) :P 

3 hours ago, draft0 said:

 

I always thought Euron was after something in Oldtown. Perhaps related to the Citadel and their secrets?

There is that book with hidden dragonlore Jaqen seems to be after. And, if Leyton Hightower and the mad maid are really into magic, they might be hording a veritable magical treasure trove up there in their tower. Imagine what Euron could do if,  for instance, he was able to utilize those glass candles to full military effect.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, one guesses this also comes from the treasures of the Qartheen. Such armor hasn't been seen since the Doom, apparently, so one should assume that Euron must have gotten this from the same people/source he got Dragonbinder from.

It doesn't seem likely Euron was personally in Valyria, but perhaps the Undying of old were. Qarth either might have warred with Valyria once (and won) or, more likely, they might have allied themselves with the dragonlords of old (or at least a faction). Anyway, it is more likely to assume Euron got that one from the Qartheen than from Valyria.

A possible (though not very likely) alternative I might throw out is that perhaps Gerion Lannister did make it to Valyria after all. He might have struck it rich there... only to bump into Euron on his way back to Braavos (or the West). 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, perhaps we can now also bury the AFfC/ADwD bashing. Those books were setting things up which are coming now. Yes, it took a lot of time and all but now things are going to pay off.

:bowdown: I really do think those books (especially Feast) have gotten a lot of undeserved flack over the years. I think ADWD had a few problems, but it also contained some of the best writing in the entire series. 

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Do we know that Hizdahr was even part of the plan when George originally wrote the prophecy, or was he just a late solution to the Mereneese knot?

We also need to keep in mind that the future isn't necessarily fixed. Right now, I still believe that 'the grey corpse smiling sadly' refers to Joncon, because before Tyrion threw a wrench in their plans, Faegon would still have gone to Daenerys and probably ended up marrying her. 

 

Edited by Veltigar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

" ...perhaps we can now also bury the AFfC/ADwD bashing."

I feel a bit of trepidation even commenting on this cause Varys's post are so fucking long, hahaha... but no, one chapter won't alleviate the discontent I had with those two books. I'll wait until I've read the entire book before I'll revise that judgement.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

I think in this might be the blueprint for Euron's victory, how he takes Westeros. [...]

That's a pretty neat description what his plan to take Westeros might be. I don't think he will succeed, though.

Instead of ending up as the big guy on the Iron Throne all he may get is this skull throne Aeron sees previously, a king of death and decay.

That was what I wanted to convey in the post above where I seem to have gotten off track at one point:

If Aeron's visions took place prior to Daznak's Pit or the battles of Meereen then there would be still a certain probability that he ended up with either a dragon/the dragons and/or Daenerys. But both with Vic's own plans as well as Moqorro's meddling this has become increasingly unlikely.

In any case, we should definitely not see Aeron's visions as written in stone or the definite proof about Euron's plans.

21 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

Sure, but let's not forget that everything in this series is the result of the actions of either a Targaryen, a Stark or a Blackwood (or so it appears from time to time) :P 

Yeah, that was my way of thinking there. George tends to connect way too many people by the way of bloodlines and stuff that it would be really odd if it turned out that Euron wasn't related to anyone 'magical' in a close degree.

However, I've no problem with it being so. After all, Bran is also not 'marked from birth' as a greenseer (unlike Brynden Rivers and possibly Euron are). But that might be due to the fact that George only came up with the 'greenseers are marked' later in the series.

21 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

There is that book with hidden dragonlore Jaqen seems to be after. And, if Leyton Hightower and the mad maid are really into magic, they might be hording a veritable magical treasure trove up there in their tower. Imagine what Euron could do if,  for instance, he was able to utilize those glass candles to full military effect.

That is a possibility, of course. But then, apparently no Ironborn king ever has had the strength of the stamina to take the Hightower (at least no in recorded history) so I'd be very surprised if Euron succeeded there.

I mean, we don't have the exact numbers of the Ironborn strength right now (no clue how many people died during Balon's campaigns, how many remained back home, how many went with Euron, and how many Victarion took to Slaver's Bay.

Oldtown is the second largest city in Westeros (which numbered more than 100,000 people back during the Conquest because in 'The Sons of the Dragon' KL crosses the 100,000 margin during the reign of Aegon I and is still smaller than both Lannisport and Oldtown), and its City Watch alone might already make up a quarter or more of Euron's strength in men (if we assume he originally had 20,000 men and the City Watch of Oldtown has about as many men as its counterpart in KL).

But Oldtown isn't just defended by its City Watch. The Hightowers seem to have all their levies and their knights and lords back home, enabling to mount a formidable defense of Oldtown itself even if they would lose all their ships (which I don't think they will, actually).

Trying to sack or conquer Oldtown would be a huge gamble on Euron's part because he wouldn't have his entire strength with him (the Iron Fleet isn't there, and neither are the people that stayed back home or have settled on the Shields) and thus risk to lose a lot of people in the fighting even if he were ultimately successful - which I cannot really imagine he would be. At least not if his goal was to take and hold the city. He surely would be able to plunder some houses and carry away a few valuables.

21 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

A possible (though not very likely) alternative I might throw out is that perhaps Gerion Lannister did make it to Valyria after all. He might have struck it rich there... only to bump into Euron on his way back to Braavos (or the West).

That would be a very great coincidence indeed. After all, he also seemed to bump into Pyat Pree and company.

Any chance that Euron might now turn out to be 'the stone beast, breathing shadow fire'? Considering that he is the third important pretender the second half of the series will include I think it is very likely that he will be that guy.

12 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

" ...perhaps we can now also bury the AFfC/ADwD bashing."

I feel a bit of trepidation even commenting on this cause Varys's post are so fucking long, hahaha... but no, one chapter won't alleviate the discontent I had with those two books. I'll wait until I've read the entire book before I'll revise that judgement.  

I don't know exactly what you problems with those books were, but my comment was specifically aimed at the fact that the stories/POVs didn't lead to anything important. We see now that they do, even in the case of Aeron (who, as I've made clear in the past, is among my least favorite POVs and characters).

And in more general terms it seems justified to take your time and pages to build things up to then hack them to pieces. And the fires that are going to be lit in TWoW are not likely to be tread out soon. There are too many factions involved now, and there are no overly powerful people like Tywin left who could enforce a new peace. We are most likely getting now a constant and devastating war everywhere in Westeros until Daenerys comes - and then will the war with the Others begin (or continue because it was already part of the previous war).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still think we'll see an exodus from Oldtown in the next book. Either because everyone pisses their breaches after Euron does unspeakable things to the Redwyne/Hightowerfleet or after he attacks Oldtown. I think there are plenty of balls in the air and plenty of legitimate reasons for Euron to go for that big prize. 

For starters, he needs to keep his followers busy. Right now they are addled by the enormous victories he has already given him. But he'll need more, after all, this is just the beginning. I suppose Euron intends to use a lot of them as a sacrifice later on and they'll only go along with that if they are still fully on board the hypetrain. 

There is also the numerical weakness of his forces, which should definitely be a concern. He can't afford to take on a passive role in this conflict. He has to monopolize the initiative as a way of keeping his numerically superior foes constantly secondguessing their actions. After taking the Shield Islands, destroying the Redwyne Fleet, an attack on Oldtown fits the bill. After all, if the Ironborn take a city as strong as Oldtown, nothing is certain anymore. 

By vanquishing Oldtown, Euron also takes care of a permanent threat to his control of that part of Westeros. Even if Leyton bends the knee and pays tribute, Euron must know that the man will immediately put every available man, woman and child under his control to work, building ships, making weapons and training as soldiers. And if Euron shows a sign of weakness, he'll lunge.

There is also the content of The Citadel and the Hightower to be considered. Whether or not someone believes Jaqen works for Euron or a third party, there is a lot of valuable stuff in there. Gold and riches to appease his followers, but more importantly magic. Leyton and the Maesters must have one of the richest collections of magical items/knowledge in planetos. You know Euron would like to get his hands on that. He could theoretically ask for that as tribute, but you know they'd cheat him out of the most valuable items. 

One also needs to take the possibility for glory in account. That does seem to be one of the things that prickles Euron. Taking the Shield Islands was a nice start, but if he takes Oldtown as well, everyone would know his name. He doesn't even need to keep it, as he pointed out himself in regards to the Shield Islands. Just destroy the city, hand out the riches (save for the magic ones of course), appoint a couple of saps to rule the ruins and open up the Mander. That has some intriguing strategic possibilities and it's another way of keeping his man happy and busy with raiding. 

Finally, it would fit right in with Euron's longterm goal of weakening Westeros. After these catastrophes, the Reachlords will definitely start to chaff under Tyrell rule. We all know that House Tyrell's current very strong grip on its vassels is historically speaking an anomaly. By clever marriage politics they have tied House Hightower and House Redwyne to them. Take those out of the equation and the other lords might start to play solo slim again. Old conflicts could resurface, a lot of them would flock to other parties (most likely Faegon). And because of the threat to their homes, the lords of the Reach would have to come and fight him, leaving their gains in the rest of the country dangerously exposed. The Riverlands would be at war in no time, the Vale might finally come out to play, Northern lords might come in action against a House Bolton which will now definitely not get any help from the South, Dorne might attack wishing to avenge Oberyn and Elia, the Crownlanders and Stormlords could break free, pirates could attack the entire Western side of Westeros, etc. Chaos everywhere, which will make the eventual take over of Daenerys/The Others/take-your-pick a lot easier. 

As to how Euron would take Oldtown, well, there are a lot of balls in the air like I said. I'm assuming that he isn't going to use magic again (I don't think GRRM would give him two magical victories so close in a row). However, there are already two potentially hostile elements inside the city. For starters, you have Jaqen. He might be affiliated with Euron and open the gate for his forces when the time comes. And even he wasn't part on alliance with Euron, he might strike a deal with the Ironborn. Opening a gate for them and using the resulting chaos to finally steal whatever it is that he wants from the Citadel. After all, there has to be a good reason why he's still there after all that time. If he's a sleeper agent for Euron or if what he wants is so well guarded that he needs a big diversion to get to it, that would offer a satisfying explanation. 

Secondly, you have the remaining Bloody Mummers who headed for Oldtown. GRRM has a trackrecord of bringing those bastards back into play, so I'm assuming that we will see them again in Sam's chapters. Most likely, they have joined Lord Hightower's army. After all, booking passage out of Oldtown has become nigh impossible and Hightower's men were signing up everyone willing to fight. However, Faithful Urswyck (and I'm assuming Fat Zollo and Tree toes (because they are the last members of the Brave Companions we know by name who are unaccounted for) and company might not look forward to fighting it out with the Ironborn. They would probably jump at the chance to opening up a gate for the Ironborn in exchange for enough money. 

You could also combine the two scenarios above. If Jaqen is a sleeper agent, he might hire the Mummers to open a gate, while he himself uses some of his skills to kill some of the commanders of the cities defence. If that is timed right (and he is a FM after all, so that shouldn't be a problem), Oldtown might have to deal with an Ironborn attack within their city walls while having to deal with the fall-out of some of their best commanders being found dead. 

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that was my way of thinking there. George tends to connect way too many people by the way of bloodlines and stuff that it would be really odd if it turned out that Euron wasn't related to anyone 'magical' in a close degree.

However, I've no problem with it being so. After all, Bran is also not 'marked from birth' as a greenseer (unlike Brynden Rivers and possibly Euron are). But that might be due to the fact that George only came up with the 'greenseers are marked' later in the series.

I guess we will have to wait for a full family tree (or a story) about House Greyjoy's relation to the other houses :) 

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a possibility, of course. But then, apparently no Ironborn king ever has had the strength of the stamina to take the Hightower (at least no in recorded history) so I'd be very surprised if Euron succeeded there.

In Euron's defence, I think we can both agree that Euron isn't exactly your-run-of-the-mill kind of Ironborn King. His achievements so far (If I already count the defeat of the Redwyne fleet) already outrank those of pretty much every other Ironborn King we have read about, seeing how he did it all in such a short amount of time and against opponents who are much stronger than those the Ironborn Kings of old had to face :)

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, we don't have the exact numbers of the Ironborn strength right now (no clue how many people died during Balon's campaigns, how many remained back home, how many went with Euron, and how many Victarion took to Slaver's Bay.

Oldtown is the second largest city in Westeros (which numbered more than 100,000 people back during the Conquest because in 'The Sons of the Dragon' KL crosses the 100,000 margin during the reign of Aegon I and is still smaller than both Lannisport and Oldtown), and its City Watch alone might already make up a quarter or more of Euron's strength in men (if we assume he originally had 20,000 men and the City Watch of Oldtown has about as many men as its counterpart in KL).

But Oldtown isn't just defended by its City Watch. The Hightowers seem to have all their levies and their knights and lords back home, enabling to mount a formidable defense of Oldtown itself even if they would lose all their ships (which I don't think they will, actually).

Trying to sack or conquer Oldtown would be a huge gamble on Euron's part because he wouldn't have his entire strength with him (the Iron Fleet isn't there, and neither are the people that stayed back home or have settled on the Shields) and thus risk to lose a lot of people in the fighting even if he were ultimately successful - which I cannot really imagine he would be. At least not if his goal was to take and hold the city. He surely would be able to plunder some houses and carry away a few valuables.

I do think that, if he takes the city, we won't see a conventional siege. That I think would indeed be way beyond Euron's means. However, I think the Ironborn's tactics are pretty simple, they will rely on guile to get acces to the city (as they already tried by impersonating those Tyroshi sailors) and then hope to open a gate long enough for a surprise attackforce to gain entry into the city. 

It certainly would be a great gamble, but that seems to be Euron's deal basically. Everything about him screams high risk, high reward (plus, he's willing to sacrifice a lot of his men if the price is right). And in the case I outlined above, He does have some advantages. The surprise effect being the most obvious one. But there is also the sheer terror the thought of an Ironborn attack will inspire, after tales of krakens/magical storms destroying the Redwyne fleet will have reached the population of Oldtown. That seems like a perfect recipe for panic breaking out. 

The Ironborn themselves on the other hand, will be brimming with confidence after the string of victories they have been on lately.  A lot of Hightowers troops will also be relatively green, while Euron's men will be anything but. I also think that the fierce fighting from narrow street to narrow street, is an advantage for the Ironborn. Those conditions resemble fighting on a ship a lot more than they resemble fighting on an open battlefield. The Ironborn also don't have to care about the civilian population. They can slaughter indescriminately and set fire to whatever they like. Something that can't be said of the Hightowers. 

So yeah, it's no done deal, but I think Euron stands more than a fighting chance. I also think the implications of a succesfull attack are rather interesting from a storyteller's POV. It would be a serious blow to the Tyrells, driving many of their stallwarts to Faegon. It might also set up a further defeat of their house, seeing that they are now faced with the nasty choice of focussing their attention either on taking back Oldtown or the Shield Islands (or going after the two of the simultaneously, which would be a certain recipe for disaster). You'd also have the interesting possibility of having that dragonlore book chance hands, either to Euron, Jaqen or perhaps Sam if he manages to steal it (taking it to for example Faegon if he goes to shelter at his court). Who knows how that might influence the coming Dance of Dragons; 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't know exactly what you problems with those books were, but my comment was specifically aimed at the fact that the stories/POVs didn't lead to anything important. We see now that they do, even in the case of Aeron (who, as I've made clear in the past, is among my least favorite POVs and characters).

And in more general terms it seems justified to take your time and pages to build things up to then hack them to pieces. And the fires that are going to be lit in TWoW are not likely to be tread out soon. There are too many factions involved now, and there are no overly powerful people like Tywin left who could enforce a new peace. We are most likely getting now a constant and devastating war everywhere in Westeros until Daenerys comes - and then will the war with the Others begin (or continue because it was already part of the previous war).

While your argument here isn't incorrect per se, for myself I don't think any of the additional complications added throughout AFfC and ADwD were necessary. That Martin is continuing them is a given, he had to after all after all once he'd chosen to weave them-- but that in itself doesn't suddenly justify their inclusion or take away from those who'd agree with my perspective. 

Westeros was already in political turmoil, there was lots of gaming afoot and conflict aplenty.

It's a matter of preference, sure. My preference was let's get on with it, eh... But now I've had to resign myself to the untold pages required to resolve all these new tensions and impending conflicts, alongside all those preexisting-- hence my opinion being unlikely to change even if Winds seems to support what I considered bloat and filler in Feast and Dance, as I consider them a further continuation of such and not an answer to. 

If you follow.

Edited by JEORDHl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, ServantOnIce said:

A lot of debate . .. won't know until the chapter is released or until TWOW is finally finished. 

Keeps faith with the Theon chapters in ADWD.  Which unfortunately means it feels like a completely different story to the first three books.

18 rated Pirates of the Caribbean coming to ASOIAF......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow... I'm envious of the fans who got to hear this read live. This is intriguing. So much new stuff. I recall Euron being mentioned with trepidation back in ASOS in Tywin's councils after they received word of Balon's death - "The Brother is back." Makes me wonder what the mainland knows of Euron. Was he around during the Greyjoy rebellion? Or was that after Balon banished him? I'm going to have to look that up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

While your argument here isn't incorrect per se, for myself I don't think any of the additional complications added throughout AFfC and ADwD were necessary. That Martin is continuing them is a given, he had to after all after all once he'd chosen to weave them-- but that in itself doesn't suddenly justify their inclusion or take away from those who'd agree with my perspective. 

Westeros was already in political turmoil, there was lots of gaming afoot and conflict aplenty.

It's a matter of preference, sure. My preference was let's get on with it, eh... But now I've had to resign myself to the untold pages required to resolve all these new tensions and impending conflicts, alongside all those preexisting-- hence my opinion being unlikely to change even if Winds seems to support what I considered bloat and filler in Feast and Dance, as I consider them a further continuation of such and not an answer to. 

If you follow.

At the very least you can't call the ironborn stuff filler anymore 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This chapter is making me reconsider the theories that Euron might be under the control of the warlocks or may possibly even be one of the warlocks, specifically Pyat Pree. I'm not convinced but now I want to read those theories again. 

I think it's strange that Pyat Pree is repeatedly saying his own name. (Or it's another warlock saying Pree's name.) This made me wonder if the legless warlock might actually be Euron and he's saying Pree's name because the warlock is the one to blame. Or maybe he's trying to point out that "Euron" is in fact Pree. 

Euron seems more addicted to Shade of the Evening than ever and doesn't he start using it right after he captures these guys?

I'm also thinking about the dwarf references. These are the kind of dwarves that were serving the warlocks in the House of the Undying and now it seems like these same kinds of dwarves will soon be serving Euron. 

Also, how his focus on Dany and her dragons seems to start right after he captures the warlocks. The timing is certainly interesting. 

I also feel like it's the warlocks who are likely urging him on with taking all of these priests to use for some kind of magic. 

I'm still unconvinced that Euron ever went to Valyria. He just happens to find a suit of armor that fits him along with a very convenient horn and lives to tell the tale but doesn't want anyone else talking about it? 

Regarding the Valyrian armor, I too suspect that it's fireproof otherwise why would it be worth a kingdom? Surely it's special and it being fireproof makes the most sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As with all con readings, this one is going to have one immediate effect - and that is to make me want to go back and read all the connected previous chapters all over again to reassess information we have already received.

It's a shame that we only just got a newly-released chapter (Arianne II); we are probably going to have to wait quite a few months before this one is published on GRRM's website.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don't think Valyrian steel was produced by Dragonlords in any case. I think it was produced by the blood-sorcerer craftsmen of Old Valyria. And the Dragonlords employed such artisans much like a Westerosi lord employes a Maester or Smith.

Only, these guys were quite rare, even in Valyria. I expect that the Targaryens weren't wealthy enough to bring such a sorcerer to Dragonstone.

Well, I do think that controlled application of dragonflame was involved in making of Valyrian steel along with the other stuff and you'd need a dragonlord's involvement for that. It would also make sense for one or  a few of the dragonlord families to keep the monopoly on the secret of production of Valyrian steel, even if weren't their own family members who made it. They could still select and control the sorcerer-smiths involved. It would only make sense, given that the process apparently wasn't written down and Targaryens, even those who were sorcerers,  never tried to revive the technology.

@BlueNightzx :

While not all Valyrian sorcerers were dragonlords, some dragonlords were sorcerers and Aenar Targaryen was allegedly such. Sorcery certainly wasn't something that had a stigma of menial occupation, unworthy of a noble in Valyria, from everything we know so far. So, comparison with Westerosi artisans isn't quite valid, IMHO.   

 

 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Maia

Hm, I always thought the teeth of ice were special in Bran's case and symbolized death. For Bran it was 'fly or die' because of his coma, others might have been in a different situation. And as far as we know young Euron was never sick or near death as a child.

But Bran saw other fallen dreamers impaled on the teeth of ice during his coma vision and we know that BR came to Jojen when he was near death from sickness as well. I mean, being near death is likely not a pre-requisite, but it probably makes contact easier? Also, we know nothing about Euron's childhood and why he hides his black eye. He may well have had a head trauma at some point and that eye is all distended pupil, requiring an eye-patch.

I don't think that Euron being so twisted is BR's fault - just that revealing reality of magic to somebody so twisted had very a unfortunate result. Yes, IMHO Euron has requisite abilities to become a greenseer, just not the character and temperament.

Some very interesting thoughts about what Euron intends to accomplish lashing people to the prows, forcing them to drink the warlock concotion and drinking it himself - TWoW can't come soon enough, sigh.

I don't have my books to hand, but I'll look for evidence of Euron being a rumored sorcerer in the past when I have time and opportunity - I am pretty sure that I remember their being some, but we'll see. In any case, he had Silence and his mutes prior to his exile 

Quote

As to the Others:

Well, I expect to be some kind of Ineluki/Utuk'ku character to be behind their creation. And those might very well be (former) Children of the Forest. And insofar as the Others are creatures who recruit themselves from human children (and turn human corpses against them) it is pretty likely that they were originally conceived as weapons against mankind by the Children.

 

Not sure about there being any one character behind their creation or even that they are a created species, rather than something from a fantasy equivalent of a parallel dimension. I also don't think that they literally change babies into Others like in the show - in ASoS when Sam flees with Gilly, it is mentioned that babies have particularly strong life-force, which even wights can see/feel from a distance. IMHO, the Others harvest and use that life-force to propagate or to propagate more quickly than they otherwise can. I.e. they are more like parasitic wasps, etc.

Quote

There might also be the connection between greyscale and the Others. The origin of greyscale was Garin's Curse but it is a spell that has taken a life of its own, and became a sickness. I don't think the Others are completely analogous to that but there certainly might be similarities.

Maybe. There must be a reason for Val's reaction to Shireen and I somehow think that there is more to it than straightforward prejudice. It is also possible that greyscale is a result of a Faustian bargain with the Others and allows them to control the victims without wightifying them first.

Quote

 

One really wonders how that guy inherited his magical blood/talent. Is Euron truly the full brother of Balon, Victarion, Urrigon, and Aeron? Or did his Sunderly mother have an affair with somebody else?

 

Magical talent has been shown to crop up randomly often enough, even though there are families where it seems to appear with some regularity. There are a couple of Ironborn Houses that are rumored to produce skinchangers, aren't there?

Edited by Maia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

At the very least you can't call the ironborn stuff filler anymore 

You're right, but only insofar as the filler having graduated to full on bloat. My opinion of course, but there it is. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If valyrian armor is fireproof it makes sense in some way. we can assume that armor was more rare  than dragon  because of fireproof and armor was only strongest valyrian dragon lords privilege. armor was advantage for them if it would come to dragon battle against a dragon raider who did not had an such armor. Also explains why targs didn't had one

Edited by Hadesa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Veltigar

You make a good case as to Euron's reasons why an attack on Oldtown might make sense. But then, such a panic and stuff could also lead to the Oldtowners and Hightowers to bend the knee. If Euron crushes the Redwyne Fleet half of the southern Reach might consider bending the knee a better option than to continue the fight. There is a hint that the Reach and Oldtown are very important for the unity of the Realm in general. Sam is pretty concerned about the hate the Iron Throne/Cersei get in AFfC because of their non-assistance, so the Hightowers choosing some Ironborn pretender and abandoning the Iron Throne could be a major blow to the idea of a united Realm.

Oh, and in general I think Oldtown being a city built most of stone should also be considered. Even if some Ironborn got in there and opened some doors, the city's houses and buildings would be all much more difficult to take than KL was by Tywin.

Whether Euron actually wants magical artifacts and stuff kept in the Citadel and the Hightower remains to be seen. It clearly wasn't his original plan to go there. And the Mander isn't close to Oldtown. If he wanted to raid deep into the Reach he would have to move part/most of his navy back to the Shields.

The main reason why I don't think a Sack on Conquest of Oldtown is likely in the near future is because I expect Sam to spend more than a few chapters in the city and the Citadel. I mean, George has set this up as a very interesting learning experience/investigation kind of thing with Fake-Pate, Alleras-Sarella, and Lazy Leo hanging out with Sam, and these guys could do a lot of interesting stuff before things change considerably. Not to mention the expected Sam-Hightower interactions cited above (we could even meet the famous Alekyne Florent).

We should also not overestimate his need to keep his men happy. If Euron successfully crushes the Redwynes he'll become the living god he is pretending to be. Then the Ironborn will do anything for him, and should he then command to move the bulk of their forces back to the Arbor and watch for a time while Westeros weakens itself then that's what's going to happen. I mean, he could win so much without risking anything simply by looking and waiting how his reputation and the story of his victory over the Redwynes spreads across Westeros.

But then, if you want to keep your men occupied why not move your ships a few leagues farther east, crush the Planky Town, take Sunspear and the Water Gardens, and kill Doran and Trystane Martell? That could work, too. Dorne was stupid enough to send the bulk of its strength into the mountains and by that time they might already have committed themselves to Aegon's cause - which could easily trigger a reaction from Euron.

As to Jaqen and his goals:

I think we already know what he is after - that dreadful blood-soaked tome called 'Blood and Fire' or 'The Death of Dragons'. That was the book mention by Tyrion in ADwD and I'm pretty sure this book is the reason why Jaqen wanted to acquire one of the keys of the archmaesters. Which he already has, so there might be little reason for him to linger in Oldtown all that long unless he has something else to do in the city.

And I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with the Ironborn. But I could be wrong.

@Rhaechyll Targaryen

I remember starting some theorizing about how Euron and the warlocks of Qarth might get along after the App revealed that Euron had indeed captured them and gained Dragonbinder from them.

The reports seem to indicate that Euron is very much Euron - but then, we do know that Xaro Xhoan Daxos warned Dany about Pyat Pree and his people, and we actually do not know what they can do.

The talk of the Qartheen warlock repeating 'Pree' is pretty odd. Pyat Pree most likely has no reason to repeat his own name over and over again, so whoever that is it is most likely not Pyat Pree.

I remember back then thinking that Euron might really be using the warlocks for the time being but that some shift in power might eventually be coming. After all, they are trained sorcerers and back then Euron seemed to be at best some sort of amateur. Now that's not necessarily the case any longer, but still... There is a chance that Euron himself might be devoured by the demons he has summoned (figuratively speaking). And if Pyat Pree himself still is in decent shape Euron better might watch his back. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens to the surviving warlocks during the coming ritual, whatever that is.

31 minutes ago, Arataniello said:

It's a shame that we only just got a newly-released chapter (Arianne II); we are probably going to have to wait quite a few months before this one is published on GRRM's website.

I guess I'll try to ask him about that on his NAB when he is back from the Con. I'm sure he'll be aware how greatly this chapter was received - both at the reading and in the internet, so there should be a decent chance that he'll put it on his page eventually. But I really do hope this was the last chapter he releases aside from, perhaps, the Prologue. I mean, we have no read so many pages of TWoW that the first actual read won't reveal anything 'new' until we are approaching page 200 or so...

@Maia

Yeah, the Targaryens should have known how to make or have had access to Valyrian steel. My guess still is that they simply could no longer afford producing it after the Doom because they could not afford so many blood sacrifices. They still had dragons, so the lack of dragonfire clearly wasn't the problem.

As to Euron:

I can't but stop thinking about Harlon Greyjoy's greyscale sickness. Could Euron have been infected by it, too? And somehow Bloodraven and/or the opening of the third eye has cured him (at least in a sense)? I mean, in a sense it seems to have been Bloodraven/the awakening of the greenseer potential that brought Bran back from the brink of death. Perhaps something similar can happen with greyscale.

Somehow I find the return of the greyscale thing there very intriguing. Back in AFfC I just thought the was a colorful detail. After all, Shireen also lived in a damp and cold tower like the Greyjoys, so the idea of Harlon catching greyscale didn't seem an important plot detail. But it might be, actually.

Others:

Well, the wives of Craster do believe something like that. So I'm willing to buy that at least up to a point. And then there is Ran/Linda continuously pointing out that 'Neverborn' name for the Others from some sort of very early press release on amazon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Euron is definitely going to Oldtown.

No one else is worthy of the Horn of Winter.

"the world will be broken and remade".. the bleeding star... Euron with the throne of defeated gods.. the sphinxes bowing to him

Euron is more than just another claimant to the throne of Westeros, even more than one that is convinced he will win.

Euron thinks he is above the gods.. that he is a god himself, or an instrument of the Great Other..

 

Melisandre introduced us to the concept of the "champion" of the Great Other, as Azor Ahai is the champion of Rhllor.

If there is such character in Asoiaf, Euron is the only one worhty.

 

Edited by LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess the big question is what is Euron's endgame?

His original plan involved taking the Iron Fleet to Meereen and stealing Dany and her dragons. It appears that plan went to shit because of recalcitrant Ironborn. Now what?

Does Euron have a Plan B? Or is Euron treading water until Vic comes back? I'm sure Euron has many prophetic visions from drinking shade of the evening. Or at least thinks he does--perhaps similar to Damphair's visions. If Oldtown is a nexus of magic, that might register on his prophetic radar. Or he might see a path to claim Westeros through another vision.

He needs something big, though. Without dragons there is absolutely no way he can take the Iron Throne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Nights Kings Queen said:

I've missed some of the comments here, so sorry if this has been asked or answered, but does this chapter officially debunk the Euron = Daario theory?

yes.

also the theory of Aeron leading a populist revolt in the Iron islands (at least for now)

and the theory of Euron going after Victarion to SB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...