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[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

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20 minutes ago, Gneisenau said:

Warlocks have ability to see into the future. Anybody think the warlocks who casted blood magic on Samwell (under the guise of making him braver), did it because they forsaw Euron capturing the warlocks and wanted to aid Sam against Euron ?

that would be awesome.

I remember there was a theory that Sam would kill Euron with an arrow..

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Mingled with the distant roar of song and celebration coming up from the beach, he’d heard the faint creak of longships settling on the strand. He heard the keening of the wind and now whines. He heard the pounding of the waves, the hammer of his god calling him to battle. And there and then, the Drowned God had come to him once more, his voice welling up from the depths of the sea.

Aeron shoulda heard 'em coming. 

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8 hours ago, bent branch said:

The interesting thing is that both of Euron's brothers were terrified of the guy. Neither Aeron or Victarion are cowards, far from it. But when they thought of Euron they went into full out panic mode. This should have told everyone just how terrible Euron was.

However, most people talked about how boring Aeron was and couldn't GRRM have given his boring POV to someone more interesting. And they talked about how stupid Victarion was and couldn't GRRM have cut Victarion's POV since it was just filler.

So, in some cases (not all), self-indulgent whining won out over reading comprehension.

Not saying this is what happened in your case though.

I actually like both, Victarion, dumb brute he is, he is pretty stand-up guy, and Aeron. I can't not like Aeron because I identify with him so much as I have gone from being 24/7 party animal to being deeply religious, luckily with much nicer childhood before all that. And of course their chapters were far from boring, there was so much going on and tracking Ironborn political leanings is a great fun.

But Euron, while I never thought he was a good or moral guy was so magnificent and charismatic with his nonchalant playing of hop-scotch with the line separating madness from greatness. There were some clues as to his true nature but they were either deeply subjective (Vic's wife), uncertain and hazy (rusty hinges) or rumors, and I say again he was so awesome that few unsavory things can be ignored for me to like him, like with say Roose or Littlefinger, who are great and likable while antagonists while say Ramsey, Gregor and Vargo are not, well Euron is far more awesome then either Roose or Littlefinger.

Euron is brilliant and totally amoral in every sense psychopath sadist, kind of which if they ever exist in such condition outside of movies, make infinitesimal percentage of psychopath sadist which in turn make very, very low percentage of either psychopaths of sadists. He is more cunning and more evil then Hannibal Lecter, psychopathic cannibal who is fictionalized and GREATLY EXAGGERATED version of a pretty one of the kind guy who is real life psychopath and doctor. So he brilliant, amoral and cruel on the scale that is probably not possible in real world and he is fucking magical to the booth. His alien world-view and disregard for anything coupled with his pervasive sadism and all the Lovecraftian themes and references associated with him makes Euron more like Eldritch abomination then bad guy.

I literally felt deceived by Euron, and in extent by Martin, which was certainly his goal in viscerally making a point. Euron is now even more awesome and the exact type of character needed to illustrate changes happening in the world of ASOIAF, he is past realistic because he doesn't need to be realistic, there are dragons and zombies, with magic as potent catalyst which can change everything and everybody, but he is far less likable and almost impossible to actually root for. He cannot be viewed as cool and charismatic albeit slightly unhinged pirate, and that is because it finally is revealed to us that he was never just cool and charismatic albeit slightly unhinged pirate, he was always absolutely brilliant and totally amoral psychopathic sadist.

 

 

 

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On 6/4/2016 at 10:35 PM, Boarsbane said:

For some reason Aeron came across as way more likable for me, maybe because this chapter really show cased how much of an animal Euron is but Aeron just seemed less annoying even though he kept droning on about the Drowned God. Euron has always come across as creepy and what he did to Blacktyde was disturbing but he's setting up to be the scariest villain we've seen in my opinion, obviously not the most realistic but to me he is even more unsettling than Roose or Ramsay. 

In the past, Aeron has always come off as a narrow-minded prig who is able to wield authority. In this chapter, we see Aeron stripped of his power. That quite often can make a character seem more sympathetic just on its own. Aeron earns a lot more sympathy points here by showing that, deep down, he's a decent guy. He maintains his faith and his principles under duress, and shows that cares for other victims like Falia.

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I always thought Aeron was a decent guy, with principles, but was overly devoted to his religion.  

I still think Victarian is going to end up being an extraneous, unnecessary POV, despite that he is more interesting to read than Quentyn.

I'm not sure that the most OMG evil of evils, worst most evil human ever conceived isn't a little too much evil for someone in this series, especially since his evil is sort of free ranging at this point and there is no explanation for why or how he became the most evil of all evils.

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Euron has gone from anime bad guy to full scale supervillian ! Wanting to be a new god ? Doctor Doom wasn't that crazy, and that guy stole the powers of the Beyonders !

Courtesy,

Your Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman !

Edited by Friendly Neighborhood

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The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood­-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed…

Now consider this...

Quote

“Here and now,” Ser Jorah agreed. “You ought to see it when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood. Come the dry season, and the world turns the color of old bronze. And this is only hranna, child. There are a hundred kinds of grass out there, grasses as yellow as lemon and as dark as indigo, blue grasses and orange grasses and grasses like rainbows. Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end.”

And this...

Quote

“Only their shadows,” Moqorro said. “One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood.”

 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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I tought Aeron would give the drowned god a part to play in the wars to come . Well know it seems like Euron is destroying the drowned god replacing the DG with himself . 

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On 6/1/2016 at 1:35 PM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

This would be more plausible if not for those visions that Aeron was getting and the fourth novel being named after Euron the same way that the fifth novel was partially named after Aegon 

What, and a Clash of Kings being partly inspired by Robb? I don't think the name has much to do with anything, besides, a Feast for Crows is just a metaphor for killing. 

And Aeron drinking juju juice and making him so vividly and obviously hallucinate about Euron is way too obvious for Martin. He never hints at something so bluntly like that. 

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I can't help but laugh at those who smugly decry Euron as an "uninteresting villain" because he's not complicated or a deeply conflicted character. Newsflash: not every villain needs to be Walter White, nor should be.

That Euron is, morally speaking, very straightforward makes him "uninteresting" or a "badly written character"? Funny that real-life irredeemable psychopaths such as Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Ed Kemper, Jack Unterweger, etc. have fascinated generations of people, and no, not only "weirdos" or "goths". :rolleyes:

Excellent chapter, and I'm hyped. I've always liked the Damphair, and hopefully we'll at least see one more POV from him.

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Dwarves could represent the smallfolk w/Euron on the Iron Throne looking like Davey Jones from Pirates of the Caribbean alongside a tall woman according to his plan confirmed by the saltwife to be Dany w/dragons. The dreams/visions also reference Euron blowing a horn that binds not only dragons but Krakens and Sphinxes for all this to come true Euron must confront Victarion at some point to get the horn as well as Dany... also now religious blood is powerful as kingsblood some type of blood magic ritual is about to go down.

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1 hour ago, King in the Narrow Sea said:

What, and a Clash of Kings being partly inspired by Robb? I don't think the name has much to do with anything, besides, a Feast for Crows is just a metaphor for killing.

Well, I don't think "Crows" refers specifically to Euron Crow's Eye, but I do think it refers to him, among others. If memory serves, the "feast for crows" metaphor - is it Jaime that comes out with it? - has to do with how crows scavenge meat from the dead after a battle; now, with the war over, there will be plenty of "crows" come to "feast" on the leftovers, i.e. the weakened state of the realm provides opportunity to certain unsavoury characters, both big and small. Euron being one of the biggest.

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8 minutes ago, Fanny said:

I can't help but laugh at those who smugly decry Euron as an "uninteresting villain" because he's not complicated or a deeply conflicted character. Newsflash: not every villain needs to be Walter White, nor should be.

That Euron is, morally speaking, very straightforward makes him "uninteresting" or a "badly written character"? Funny that real-life irredeemable psychopaths such as Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Ed Kemper, Jack Unterweger, etc. have fascinated generations of people, and no, not only "weirdos" or "goths". :rolleyes:

Excellent chapter, and I'm hyped. I've always liked the Damphair, and hopefully we'll at least see one more POV from him.

Hear hear

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3 hours ago, King in the Narrow Sea said:

What, and a Clash of Kings being partly inspired by Robb? I don't think the name has much to do with anything, besides, a Feast for Crows is just a metaphor for killing. 

And Aeron drinking juju juice and making him so vividly and obviously hallucinate about Euron is way too obvious for Martin. He never hints at something so bluntly like that. 

Uh, yes he freaking does.

Don't you remember the freaking king at a feast of corpses with a wolf head?

Or the Mummer's Dragon? 

Or the lady that was a fish? 

Or Theon's dream in Winterfell where he's at a feast full of dead people and then Robb and Grey Wind come in with blood and wounds all over them to join the feast of the dead 

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There's a relationship here, something brewing in the imagery, wording and naming that creates an association between Euron, Tyrion, the Ninepenny kings, the white flame woman and (white) worms.

I think Euron is going to create an alliance like the Ninepenny kings, and they're the dwarves capering for his and his mate's amusement.

Quoting from the wiki because I'm lazy, but any money this character is foreshadowing for the pale fire woman.

Quote

 

Lady Mysaria was a dancer from Lys. Lyseni prostitutes and her rivals dubbed her Misery, the White Worm, because of her very pale appearance and her reputation.

Mysaria was taken as a lover by Prince Daemon Targaryen in King's Landing, and she quickly became his favorite. Around 105 AC, Mysaria became pregnant with Daemon's child while living at Dragonstone. Daemon gave her a dragon egg for the child, which angered King Viserys I Targaryen. The king ordered Daemon to return the egg and send Mysaria back to Lys. On her return to Lys, she lost the child during a storm on the narrow sea.

During the Dance of the Dragons civil war, Mysaria was involved in the assassination of Prince Jaehaerys, a son of King Aegon II Targaryen, when Prince Daemon desired revenge for the death of his stepson Prince Lucerys Velaryon. She was Daemon's go-between, a "pale stranger" whom he trusted, who hired the assassins, Blood and Cheese.

At some point Mysaria became Daemon's mistress of whisperers. Lady Mysaria gave warnings to Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen during the riot of King's Landing.

 

Daemon would be Euron in this instance. Rhaenyra Dany. Note Daemon gave her a dragon egg, but they had to give it back. And that she lost Daemon's child during a storm. Storm can either refer to Euron, the first and last storm, or Dany the Stormborn.

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3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

There's a relationship here, something brewing in the imagery, wording and naming that creates an association between Euron, Tyrion, the Ninepenny kings, the white flame woman and (white) worms.

I think Euron is going to create an alliance like the Ninepenny kings, and they're the dwarves capering for his and his mate's amusement.

Quoting from the wiki because I'm lazy, but any money this character is foreshadowing for the pale fire woman.

Daemon would be Euron in this instance. Rhaenyra Dany. Note Daemon gave her a dragon egg, but they had to give it back. And that she lost Daemon's child during a storm. Storm can either refer to Euron, the first and last storm, or Dany the Stormborn.

People seem to think Lysono Maar looks like a gal on first glance. Just sayin'. 

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Just on the topic of 'evil' characters and whether Euron (and others) are a bit cookie-cutter villainesque.The 'evil' word has been thrown around a lot, as well as 'psychopath'. I think we can pick a few good exemplars of the generally not nice characters of the books:

Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsey and Euron.

I think it's important to remember the context that these characters live in. All are members of great houses which affords a certain amount of latitude and leniency in terms of behaviour (i.e. they can get away with all kinds of stuff), throw into that the familial issues that come from having to live up to that greatness and common lack of proper parenting due to father's often being off fighting wars and stuff. Plus, a certain ruthlessness was required to maintain their position at the top of the pile. Similarly, everyone has the capacity to commit quite heinous acts, books-wise, take a look at Ned. We find meet him when he beheads a man of the nights watch who ran away from his post because he saw a white walker. Either you think he is not telling the truth and therefore has gone 'mad', in which case, beheading a mad man is quite a callous thing to do, or you believe him and you're beheading him because he is too scared to stay at the wall instead of finding him a less front-line role, which is also a rather callous action. Ned has his reasons, in the context, they are even considered noble. From our modern societal perspective, he just straight up executed a scared man - but on reality basis, Ned has to maintain authority and such actions are sometimes required. Take a real world example, quite a number of rich and powerful people are being investigated and convicted of sexual offences - something about that position of power that awakens the unsightly beast within us all.

What's my point? On the whole, I'd say neither Tywin or Cersei are psychopaths, or indeed, have a similar mental disorder. Cersei is probably more traumatised than anything. Tywin grew up with people laughing at his house, he is a proud man and came to realise that the best path to restore his house involved quite bloodthirsty and callous methods. He is very much a product of his circumstances, I wouldn't consider him to be particularly 'evil'. He will care about his family, he has twisted that somewhat, but he would never deliberately act against them. Tyrion is actually a bit of a mystery - the fact that he is a dwarf should make little difference to Tywin, it seems like an odd reason to actively despise your own child. I have two thoughts on that, either he truly, madly, loved Joanna and therefore her death hit him very hard and he could never forgive Tyrion, or the TargTyrion theory is true and Tywin knew, or suspected. Either way, I think Tywin has made some very poor 'moral' decisions, but is not evil or psychopathic.

Cersei is more complex. Her main issue stems from being a woman in a mans world and feeling inadequate in her place. Add in the unhealthy sibling attachment which bred jealousy due to Jaime's achievements and an abusive and absent husband. Cersei does love her children, again, she has twisted this somewhat so that her actions are justified - but she is evidently not devoid of emotion. We have seen her rise and fall, as any person would, she is not psychopathic. She is quite paranoid - to the extent of a personality disorder? Probably not, Again, a victim of circumstances - she tries to forge a path in a world that requires a certain ruthlessness to rise. We probably see her supposed 'evil' more keenly due to her being a POV character. You think Littlefinger and Varys are more sympathetic and kindly than her?

Joffrey will likely develop into a full blown psychopath and sadist. He's what, 14 when he dies? The mixture of having his grandfather, father and mother and the screwed up affection/attention, plus the incest. The reality is that he was not wired correctly. While he was tame compared to Ramsey and Euron in terms of actual actions, that is more likely due to age. I think Joffrey would have kept torture chambers and administered them personally.

Ramsey is also a psychopath. No emotional connections, no remorse, causing pain for his own pleasure. He is not insane or mad, he is probably quite in control of his own behaviour, fully aware of the consequences of his actions and just doesn't care.

Euron I would say is not psychopathic. Based on what we've seen so far, I'd say he is probably mentally unwell. Schizophrenic perhaps? The drugs, the exposure to magic and perhaps a little bit of abuse when he was younger (remember, abuse breeds abuse, he probably experienced something in his own childhood). I imagine he has full blown hallucinations and delusions of grandeur. This may even be helped along by others who are influencing his mental state.

My ultimate point? I'd not write Euron off as a 'dark lord' who is 'evil' and just wants to take over the world. Your dark lord is born evil, acts evil and dies evil - all they do is evil. For starters, Euron would not have been born evil, no one is, that's absurd. There may will be circumstances that cause his brain to be wired differently, but it is not a sure route to evilness. If you take Euron to be genuinely mentally unwell, hallucinating that he is the God of the world, the great Kraken, that the Others whisper to him - whatever. Consider that cutting out people's tongues plays to some kind of master plan in his head. Then perhaps we are watching what would have happened if Aerys had been able to have his way when he wanted to burn everyone. This doesn't preclude Euron from being clever, or aware of what is going on. I'm sure he has got a  brilliant plan, but it could just be that the basis for what he is doing and believes could be psychotic induced.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily add to the character per se, if his on-screen actions are only portrayed in a 'I kill you all' fashion.

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11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I think Euron is going to create an alliance like the Ninepenny kings, and they're the dwarves capering for his and his mate's amusement.

That is an interesting idea. Aurane Waters and whatever is left of Salladhor Saan's navy might join him, and Euron might actually turn to Sunspear and the Stepstones next should he actually defeat the Redwyne fleet this easily.

He wants the Iron Throne so moving closer - physically - into that direction might come in handy. Especially while he is thinking Vic and Dany might come soon. With the Redwynes out of the way he would have the strength to attack KL in any case, although it would be very difficult to hold it.

However, I don't think that any connection to Mysaria the White Worm is intentional.

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