The entire Tower of Joy account does not make sense

[ForTheNorth]

Does anyone think that the kingsguard sacrificed themselves? 

[joluoto2]

There are lot of things that doesn't make sense about the ToJ situation. A big reason is that the only version of the events we have is Ned's dream, and some lesser mentions. A dream muddles details, so there's a reason it feels like so much is missing.

The first thing I'd like to Point out is that the ToJ is a hideout. Rhaegar definitely went there to hide. This fits well with the theory that something Went terribly wrong when Lyanna was "kidnapped". Brandon found out within days, it seems, I doubt Rhaegar wanted the news to spread. So I think something went terribly wrong and Rhaegar went to the tower to hide.

Another thing that doesn't make much sense is how well hidden the tower was. Lord Commander Hightower spent days looking for it. If it was that seclusive it create loads of more questions. Where did they find the staff for the tower? If they recruited commoners in nearby villages, the tower should be much easier to find, since servants talk, and their friends and family in said villages would probably know all about the tower. But if the tower wasn't staffed by locals, who was staffing it (and don't come with a stupid: It wasn't staffed answer. It's the tower of the Prince, of course it was staffed).

And if it was so seclusive, how fast did news travel. We can assume no ravens flew there, so news wouldn't come directly from King's Landing by raven. When did Rhaegar learn all that happened? Did he know before the Lord Commander arrived to fetch him, or did Hightower bring the news? And if news only could arrive by messenger and the place was so seclusive, how much did the Kingsguard members there know about the war when Ned & co arrived? Did they know about the Trident? The fall of King's Landing? Viserys on Dragonstone? The fall of Storm's End? Just how much could possibly have gotten there if we are to believe Rhaegar didn't know what was going on before Hightower arrived. But then again, what if Rhaegar had known the entire time? Then things get much more interesting. Why didn't he leave to fight before Hightower arrived?

 

And of course the 3 KGs at the tower. What's their function in the story. No matter how you spin it, their presence there doesn't make much sense.

[MtnLion]

14 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

I can find my way though much of the Tower of Joy bits and pieces but I too struggle with the tearing down of it, after. I cannot see how Ned did that with just Howland Reed.

There is a disused tower at Winterfell that was damaged by a lightning strike and the ensuing fire.  It would be quite easy to pull a simple watchtower down, that even though appearing to be stone, would require internal wooden supports.  Floors within the tower would need to be constructed of wood and anchored to the walls.  Set a fire within and let that do the dirty work.  Ned and his companions arrived on horseback, so Ned has at least seven horses (but likely ten or more) to help pull the stones that remain standing down, and to their intended spot in a cairn.  Ned built eight cairns for the fallen, showing some great respect for each of them.  A community cairn would be so much easier. 

[MtnLion]

12 hours ago, tugela said:

Except that the world of Westeros is modeled after Medieval Europe, and in that era a tower would have been a fortified residence.

Well, I think that you are misinterpreting what I pointed out.  Your example was not a watchtower, my example was a watchtower.  The book says "watchtower". 

Then add in the history of Dorne.  Every time the Targaryens would try to confront Dorne, they would find watchtowers and castles deserted.  The watchtowers that Dorne built were not intended for fighting, but to be an early warning system for residents to take shelter.  If the Targaryens elected to destroy their watchtowers, they would build new ones.  That dictated a certain level of economy in the building, meaning nothing fancy, just enough to do the job of warning. 

[MtnLion]

5 hours ago, joluoto2 said:

Did they know about the Trident? The fall of King's Landing? Viserys on Dragonstone? The fall of Storm's End? Just how much could possibly have gotten there if we are to believe Rhaegar didn't know what was going on before Hightower arrived. But then again, what if Rhaegar had known the entire time? Then things get much more interesting. Why didn't he leave to fight before Hightower arrived?

And of course the 3 KGs at the tower. What's their function in the story. No matter how you spin it, their presence there doesn't make much sense.

All of your questions are answered in my piece "at the tower of joy".  (Link in my signature) 

[Rippounet]

25 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

All of your questions are answered in my piece "at the tower of joy".  (Link in my signature) 

Sorry to nitpick, but no, not really. You make a lot of assumptions that could easily be false. Basically, the fact remains that no one has the answers to these questions, because Ned's dream is both vague and unreliable.

It may be reasonable to say, based on Ned's dream, that the KG knew about the Trident and of Jaime slaying Aerys. Those news would have traveled fast throughout the land anyway. But anything else is highly speculative. Especially this bit:

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They have ignored the insult of labeling Viserys as a prince, when he should be considered the king. 

Or they don't correct Ned because they don't know that Viserys is king... In fact, we don't even know whether Ned knew that...

[MtnLion]

1 minute ago, Rippounet said:

Sorry to nitpick, but no, not really. You make a lot of assumptions that could easily be false. Basically, the fact remains that no one has the answers to these questions, because Ned's dream is both vague and unreliable

Ned's dream has deep meaning to Ned, as it is recurring, and described at the beginning as, "as it had been in life."  Are you then saying that Ned is unreliable?  He is certainly much more reliable than Yandel, who you seem to take at face. 

3 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Or they don't correct Ned because they don't know that Viserys is king... In fact, we don't even know whether Ned knew that...

Ned knew that Targaryen loyalists would view Viserys as the king.  (Some research has led me to conclude that addressing the king as "prince" is not a slur.  But, I have not decided to remove that sentence from the write up, since it should still stand that Viserys should be the king, via normal inheritance, unless Jon is legitimate.  Therefore, we can conclude with the actions of the Kingsguard at the thower of Joy, that Jon is legitimate.  No other possibility exists to explain why at least one of the Kingsguard do not excuse themselves from the confrontation to discuss travel plans to Dragonstone, with Ned.) 

[Rippounet]

10 hours ago, ForTheNorth said:

Does anyone think that the kingsguard sacrificed themselves? 

This would be an interesting twist, but Ned clearly thinks Howland Reed saved him from Arthur Dayne. And almost all Northerners were killed...

My guess would be that Ned found something in the tower. Something else than Lyanna, which compelled him to destroy the tower so that no one would ever find out. And this something may have required hiding the bodies as well.
I have no clue what it is though. Some proof that Jon is a "real" Targaryan, or that he is special perhaps... My first thought is that there was a dragon egg, or perhaps even a dragon hatchling, but that's a very wild guess.

[King of the West]

So much wrong with your reasoning. Robert was Rhaegar's cousin. Blonde hair, purple eyes clearly identifiable. The rest I'm at the dentist so I'll say it's rotten and needs pulling

 

[Rippounet]

1 minute ago, MtnLion said:

Ned's dream has deep meaning to Ned, as it is recurring, and described at the beginning as, "as it had been in life."  Are you then saying that Ned is unreliable?

His dream is, as Martin said so himself. Are you saying that Martin is unreliable?

1 minute ago, MtnLion said:

Ned knew that Targaryen loyalists would view Viserys as the king.  (Some research has led me to conclude that addressing the king as "prince" is not a slur.  But, I have not decided to remove that sentence from the write up, since it should still stand that Viserys should be the king, via normal inheritance, unless Jon is legitimate.  Therefore, we can conclude with the actions of the Kingsguard at the thower of Joy, that Jon is legitimate.  No other possibility exists to explain why at least one of the Kingsguard do not excuse themselves from the confrontation to discuss travel plans to Dragonstone, with Ned.) 

This makes no sense at all. Debatable assumptions that lead to an even more debatable conclusion.

Assuming Jon is at the ToJ when Ned arrives, he is the Crown Prince's natural son, and obviously, Rhaegar has asked the KG to protect Lyanna and/or his child. The theory that the KG's presence proves that Jon is legitimate is interesting, but it is by no means bulletproof. I'll dare say it's more a way to look at things than an actual theory ; in other words, it's more about how one views Jon and his role within the story, than about the text itself. In the end, legitimacy may very well prove meaningless anyway.

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No other possibility exists to explain why at least one of the Kingsguard do not excuse themselves from the confrontation to discuss travel plans to Dragonstone, with Ned.) 

No other possibility? Really? 

[Ser Leftwich]

13 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

This would be an interesting twist, but Ned clearly thinks Howland Reed saved him from Arthur Dayne. And almost all Northerners were killed...

My guess would be that Ned found something in the tower. Something else than Lyanna, which compelled him to destroy the tower so that no one would ever find out. And this something may have required hiding the bodies as well.
I have no clue what it is though. Some proof that Jon is a "real" Targaryan, or that he is special perhaps... My first thought is that there was a dragon egg, or perhaps even a dragon hatchling, but that's a very wild guess.

Or Lyanna asked to have her body burned.

Or Lyanna had some fever/communicable disease and it made sense to burn the body to halt the spread.

Or it made sense to burn out the tower to make available the cobbles/stones to make the cairns.

[MtnLion]

26 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

No other possibility? Really? 

Who is with the king?  There should be at least one of the KIngsguard with the king, unless there is an extenuating circumstance that requires all of the Kingsguard to do something else.  And, in the one instance we get, there are several substitutes with the king, and the Lord Commander verifies that the king will be kept safe for the duration of the meeting.  If Viserys is the king, Aerys' heir, then Lord Commander Hightower, Ser Arthur Dayne, and Ser Oswell Whent are derelict it fulfilling their mission to keep King Viserys safe.  There must be a reason that Ned still holds all of these men in high honor, years later, and that can only be if they gave their lives, at the tower of joy, for their king.  Nothing else makes sense. 

[MtnLion]

39 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

His dream is, as Martin said so himself. Are you saying that Martin is unreliable?

Quote

 

Concerning the Tower of Joy

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?

Certainly.

 

That is certainly one way to conceal what has become an open secret. "Our dreams" does not equal Ned's dream.  Nor, can the "as it had been in life" be excused as a fever or drug induced delusion.   

[marsyao]

On 5/30/2016 at 6:16 AM, Dragonsmurf said:

The Kingsguard are seven knights because they are supposed to be with the royal family at all times. 1 000 men can hardly be present at once. And remember that the Kingsguard isn't the only ones who protect the king, just his closest body guards.

The rest I agree with. The entire Tower of Joy thing is a bit odd.

That acutally does not make much of sense, yes, Kingsguard swore an vow to server the royal family, but their #1 priority shall always be the King, it makes no sense for three Kingsguard stayed in Tow of Joy when the country was in fire. But of cou

On 5/30/2016 at 0:10 AM, nicephorus_phocas said:

 Plus why have only 3 men guarding her? Since the tower is in Dorne they surely have the option of calling for more reinforcements to guard the place.

This they can not dow, since Rhaegar's wife is the sister of Doran Martell

[tugela]

1 hour ago, King of the West said:

So much wrong with your reasoning. Robert was Rhaegar's cousin. Blonde hair, purple eyes clearly identifiable. The rest I'm at the dentist so I'll say it's rotten and needs pulling

 

Second cousin. Their relationship was fairly distant. IIRC Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen.

Since he would have been the heir to Stormhold, he would have spent most of his time there. Other than seeing Rhaegar at the Harrenhall tournament, he probably had never met the prince.

They did not have cars and planes or TV in those days, most of these people would not have recognized each other even if they had met previously. Evidence of this is quite clear in the situation where Jeyne Poole was passed off as Arya to marry Ramsey. You would have thought that the northern lords might have known what Arya and Jeyne looked like, but none of them realized the deception. For the simple reason that these people seldom ventured outside of their own lands.

[tugela]

11 hours ago, apovsic said:

So for how many people can we be sure that know what happened at ToJ? Howland is for sure, but (my memory is kinda bad here) is there any textual evidence that Ned told anybody else the full story or how many people even know little bits of it? 

He must have told at least some people. Remember, one of his companions (I forget the name) had a widow who was bitter that Ned brought back his horse, but not his bones. Since she was super pissed off, you would think that she would have demanded and received some sort of explanation at the time. Given her anger, and the hatred she has decades later, I think she was not drinking Ned's cool aid on the matter.

[tugela]

13 hours ago, house of dayne said:

can anyone explain why ned pulled down the tower? it seems like an absurd waste of time and energy..and to what point? it certainly is not compelled by the funerary traditions of anybody.. its not like ned need ever return there again so i cant imagine he felt the need to wipe it from existence..if he wanted to honour his dead with cairns, it would have been far better and far easier to simply bring home their bones and or ashes..however big you think the tower is, it is not easy to pull down and level a stone tower with only two men and some horses..but before you can say how, ask yourself, why bother?

It is an explanation for why no one can find it again. If he says that he just left it, then it would be a simple matter for the relatives of the dead men to go an find it to recover the bodies of their sons. But on the other hand if it is now just a scattered pile of stones, finding it would be difficult.

The implication is that Ned does not want the families going back for the bones of these men, and the simplest motivation for that would be that there are no bones to be found, at least not there. It means that Ned is hiding something big.

[apovsic]

4 minutes ago, tugela said:

He must have told at least some people. Remember, one of his companions (I forget the name) had a widow who was bitter that Ned brought back his horse, but not his bones. Since she was super pissed off, you would think that she would have demanded and received some sort of explanation at the time. Given her anger, and the hatred she has decades later, I think she was not drinking Ned's cool aid on the matter.

You a probably right, but I was asking for some textual evidence (so direct evidence). I'm quite sure that quite some people know that something happened there (or at least that something happened), but the main question is, who knows (if who) everything and who knows just some parts of the story.

[W1NT3RF3LL]

On 5/30/2016 at 0:10 AM, nicephorus_phocas said:

The entire Tower of Joy accounts is extremely problematic from start to finish, first of all is the location you would choose to hide Lyanna and the future heir of the Targaryen dynasty, if you are planning to keep her in a safe house in the hopes of evacuating her to Essos in secret, would not it be better to disguise her as a commoner and hide her in an inconspicuous safehouse with a few guards disguised as smallfolk somewhere, instead of a tower which attracts a lot of attention.  Plus why have only 3 men guarding her? Since the tower is in Dorne they surely have the option of calling for more reinforcements to guard the place. Then there is the question of how Ned and his guard was able to enter the tower in the first place, since the people inside there have the option of just shooting at them with arrows to hold them off, and it will be criminally stupid for the KG to not have arrows so that they can shoot at intruders from a very defensible position, but then the entire idea that you only have 3 people to guard Lyanna and the heir of the Targaryen dynasty is in itself criminally stupid.

Plus how did Ned and Howland manage to pull down the tower all by themselves? I mean the tower is made of stone, and must be as large as a pagoda, so 2 men without any equipment other than their bare hands will any be able to pull down that tower, wont it be just simply to dig graves beside the tower and then bury them? Plus what is the deal with Ned not finding a way to bring back Arthur's bones, and the remains of the others who went with him, even if it cannot be done at once, I am sure that he can find a way to talk to the Dornish about exhuming those bodies and bringing them back. Plus another matter the entire concept Kingsguard itself is extremely ill thought out, I mean the Preatorian Guard during the time of the Roman Empire is composed of 1 legion, that is around 6000 men, and the Varangian Guard during the time of the Byzantines was composed of hundreds of men, so why does the King of Westeros have only 7 people to guard him, plus what is the deal with them being required to serve for life and forced celibacy, that seems to be counterproductive  if you want to hire people, more sensible will be the King having his own personal guard of about 1000 men that is funded out of his taxes. 

I think what you have to remember is that its not supposed to be clear to begin with.  Now people can correct me if I'm wrong, but we only know of the tower of joy story from Ned's fever dreams.  We don't have a clear cut account of it from him or anyone else for that matter.  I don't think there is anything wrong with three of your Kings Guard, two of whom are arguably the best swordsmen in all of Westeros protecting a prisoner in a tower out in the desert.  There are a lot of unknowns with the entire story, and I'm sure it will become clearer as the next two books come out. 

 

[Ser Leftwich]

6 minutes ago, tugela said:

Second cousin. Their relationship was fairly distant. IIRC Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen.

Since he would have been the heir to Stormhold, he would have spent most of his time there. Other than seeing Rhaegar at the Harrenhall tournament, he probably had never met the prince.

They did not have cars and planes or TV in those days, most of these people would not have recognized each other even if they had met previously. Evidence of this is quite clear in the situation where Jeyne Poole was passed off as Arya to marry Ramsey. You would have thought that the northern lords might have known what Arya and Jeyne looked like, but none of them realized the deception. For the simple reason that these people seldom ventured outside of their own lands.

Second cousin to the royal family. That is enormous. After Steffon died, Robert was third in line for the throne. Storm's End is the closer to KL than any other major keep. His father was on the Small Council. Robert and Rhaegar met countless times.

Any number or all of those Northern Lords may have recognized that Jeyne was not Arya, and we readers would be none the wiser.

Also, getting basic facts/names (Stormhold??) wrong does not help a case.