MtnLion Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 6 minutes ago, No One of Importance said: What is most striking to me is the last line of the dream: "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death." Who else do we know with striking blue eyes and an association with death? Hmm What the reader knows is irrelevant to Ned's dream. This is Ned's dream, and can only be interpreted with his perspective, and we know that he does not believe in White Walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 2 hours ago, MtnLion said: It is very, very clear that Ned believes that the Kingsguard are guarding an heir with a better claim than Viserys. Yes, it's so "very very" clear that everybody on the forum agrees that Jon is the legitimate king of Westeros. 2 hours ago, MtnLion said: In your dreams, perhaps. Read his answer again, and notice that he does not refer to that dream in his answer but "our" dreams. GRRM subtly shifted the subject from Ned's dream to our dreams. As far as I know, Martin doesn't practice this type of disingenuity. His answers are generally clear as he can make them. If he doesn't want to talk about something, he doesn't. I've read at least one post by Ran on this forum saying that there is no "hidden meaning" or "subtle twists" in Martin's words. And even without the last sentence, Martin's answer is still very clear: Quote I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. It's quite obvious what Martin is saying here, unless you are so intent on stating your own theories as fact that you lose the ability to read English altogether... Sorry MtnLion, but there's a fine line between being a tough debater and being childish, and you've crossed it. The worst thing is... I don't even necessarily disagree with your conclusions, but if you're going to twist SSMs, there's absolutely no point in discussing anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No One of Importance Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 1 minute ago, MtnLion said: What the reader knows is irrelevant to Ned's dream. This is Ned's dream, and can only be interpreted with his perspective, and we know that he does not believe in White Walkers. For one, we don't know that Ned does not believe in White Walkers. He believes that "the Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin would tell you that they never lived at all." That would indicate that Ned does believe they existed, just that they do not any longer. (Consider, by analogy, the difference between not believing in dinosaurs versus believing that dinosaurs are extinct.) More importantly, though, what the reader knows is extremely relevant. Martin is choosing his words for the reader's sake. I'm not making the argument that Ned is associating something from the tower with the Others, but rather that Martin might want us to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 2 hours ago, MtnLion said: I am stating it from Ned's perspective. I read the entire dialog from the perspective of each position. The one that matters is Ned's. because it has a deep meaning to him. Therefore, to interpret the dream one must define the dialog with Ned's understanding of the dialog. It is very, very clear that Ned believes that the Kingsguard are guarding an heir with a better claim than Viserys. 7 minutes ago, Rippounet said: Yes, it's so "very very" clear that everybody on the forum agrees that Jon is the legitimate king of Westeros. How you try to twist my words. Did I say everybody on Westeros.org agrees? No. I said Ned knows. But, you are right, you and I cannot see common ground, and I will leave you to your filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 He may believe that they existed, but does he know what they looked like? BTW: Does a red-streaked sky mean anything? Like the return of the red comet? Was Jon born when that comet was in the sky? Interesting thought, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 20 minutes ago, No One of Importance said: More importantly, though, what the reader knows is extremely relevant. Martin is choosing his words for the reader's sake. I'm not making the argument that Ned is associating something from the tower with the Others, but rather that Martin might want us to do so. It is Ned's dream, it means something to Ned. We must interpret it through Ned's eyes. Just like we rely on Daenerys to tell us that the blue flower that she sees in the HotU vision is really a blue rose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Eddard was having a dream when he was summoned to Robert’s bedside: Quote He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood. Eddard Stark jerked upright, his heart racing, the blankets tangled around him. GoT Eddard XIII Later while Eddard is approaching the royal apartments in Maegor’s Holdfast to meet with Robert he thinks : Quote Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king's bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him. GoT Eddard XIII I dunna know but it seems like Eddard had remembrance of sumptin while he was awake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No One of Importance Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 2 hours ago, MtnLion said: It is Ned's dream, it means something to Ned. We must interpret it through Ned's eyes. Just like we rely on Daenerys to tell us that the blue flower that she sees in the HotU vision is really a blue rose. It was written by GRRM, for an audience. We must interpret it through that lens as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Just now, No One of Importance said: It was written by GRRM, for an audience. We must interpret it through that lens as well. It is Ned's POV, it must be interpreted from Ned's perspective. GRRM is infallible, but none of his POVs are. It is true that for the medium to work, GRRM has to choose his words to make sense, but he is relaying what his POV characters think, do, and observe. Once more, it must make sense to the POV that we are reading from, or we would get a garbled message/no message at all. It is Ned's POV, and it is Ned's dream, Ned has had it before, it means something specific to Ned; since he thinks that it does not bode well. Even here; I am trying to relay my POV to you, and failing miserably, even though it makes clear sense to me, it doesn't seem to do so; to you. But, let's try a small gesture, here. What happens if the character does not understand what they are witnessing? Does the reader get a clear understanding if the POV fails? Think it through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnViserion Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 How could the Kingsguard possibly had known they were guarding an heir with a better claim than Viserys? If They were serious about doing their duty to the throne they would have gone straight to Aerys eldest remaining child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No One of Importance Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 On 6/3/2016 at 5:23 PM, MtnLion said: It is Ned's POV, it must be interpreted from Ned's perspective. GRRM is infallible, but none of his POVs are. It is true that for the medium to work, GRRM has to choose his words to make sense, but he is relaying what his POV characters think, do, and observe. Once more, it must make sense to the POV that we are reading from, or we would get a garbled message/no message at all. It is Ned's POV, and it is Ned's dream, Ned has had it before, it means something specific to Ned; since he thinks that it does not bode well. Even here; I am trying to relay my POV to you, and failing miserably, even though it makes clear sense to me, it doesn't seem to do so; to you. But, let's try a small gesture, here. What happens if the character does not understand what they are witnessing? Does the reader get a clear understanding if the POV fails? Think it through. You're not picking up what I'm putting down. No worries. Not interested in arguing this further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_of_the_black Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I have a weird feeling that ashara dayne is involved with rhaegar and lyanna somehow. Especially when you read this quote from George R. R. Martin.. As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar. The rest I will save for the books. I find it strange that he mentions rhaegar and ashara are the same time.. But as far as lyanna being alive still.. no way. Ned brought back her remains. Plus he is very sad when he thinks about her. Why would he be if he helped her to escape? His memory of her bed of blood, no way he could just make that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Blade Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 It kinda feels like the ToJ was an unknown event for everyone in Westeros. Ned supposedly slays Ser Arthur Dayne the Sword Of the Morning in single combat. The LC of the kingsguard dies there. Ned marched there after lifting the siege of Storm's End. Yet nobody ever mentions what happened with Ser Arthur Dayne's body and his fellow brothers, not even Jaime who in some chapters seems to be obsessed with the memory of Ned Stark reflects on Stark's battle with Dayne and he admires Ser Arthur. Barristan also never reflects on what happened to his fellow brothers, he thinks of the kings he failed but never reflects on how his brothers died for the king while he did not. The only person who actually cares about the event is Lady Dustin and that's only because Ned didn't bring her husband's bones north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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