Is Daenerys the main antagonist of the saga?

[dariopatke]

7 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

 

Religion or not, the moment when someone's tradition causes them to kidnap you and imprison you in the middle of nowhere for the rest of your life, is the moment you can stop being respectful to that tradition.

She wasnt imprisoned, like I said.

How is this different from Aerys naming Jaime to Kingsguard. People fail to see that absolute monarchy is terrible (Yes, you have Jahaerys I, but you alse have Aegon IV, Maegor,...) and that there is not much difference between slavery and feudalism, have you seen how smallfolk live in Westeros. Real progress would be abolishing both of them, but again you have to have a plan and be aware that this might take couple of generation, not couple of words.

Dont make a mistake, I strongly dislike Dotrakhi and their customs, but I am no fan of Westerosi ones either.

[bb1180]

12 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

That she schemed to get her ends? Or the sole fact that she killed her enemies in a situation when it technically could be avoided?

Both. 

You're right,  its not different than most any other character in the story.  Then again,  most of the characters in this story are morally compromised,  to say the least,  so why is Dany's morality and character above reproach?  It shouldn't be.  And understand,  I'm not telling you that Dany was 'evil' for killing them,  but I can't agree that doing so in a premeditated fashion was morally justifiable or good,  either. 

[bb1180]

10 minutes ago, Bogdan said:

So it is just I hate Dany thread that infests the book forums.

No. As I said,  I think its a fair comparison between Dany and Jon and/or Sansa.  If I wanted to turn it into an 'I hate Dany' thread,  I'd say that there is no comparison between the three and attack any attempt to make one.  But if you want to view the three characters in that respect,  I'm not going to argue with you. 

[Tianzi]

1 minute ago, bb1180 said:

Both. 

You're right,  its not different than most any other character in the story.  Then again,  most of the characters in this story are morally compromised,  to say the least,  so why is Dany's morality and character above reproach?  It shouldn't be.  And understand,  I'm not telling you that Dany was 'evil' for killing them,  but I certainly can't agree that doing so in a premeditated fashion was morally pure,  either.  

I don't think Dany is morally pure, I just think that the Dothraki arson isn't even on the top of her morally compromised deeds.

 

3 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

She wasnt imprisoned, like I said.

How is this different from Aerys naming Jaime to Kingsguard. People fail to see that absolute monarchy is terrible (Yes, you have Jahaerys I, but you alse have Aegon IV, Maegor,...) and that there is not much difference between slavery and feudalism, have you seen how smallfolk live in Westeros. Real progress would be abolishing both of them, but again you have to have a plan and be aware that this might take couple of generation, not couple of words.

Dont make a mistake, I strongly dislike Dotrakhi and their customs, but I am no fan of Westerosi ones either.

She asked nicely to be treated as a queen and be escorted to Mereen, according to her rules, they refused and decided to treat her according to their rules against her will. Call it a culture clash or a conflict of interest.

And about who Dany 'should' be, we are back to square one: she was born the Westerosi princess and sold to the Dothraki.

[bb1180]

13 minutes ago, blckp said:

and what it has to do with dany becoming villain? i like dany far more than jon and sansa, but it doesnt makes them villian

It doesn't make Dany a villain,  either.  My suspicion about Dany becoming a villain in this story comes about partially due to some of her actions,  but mainly due to how the producers portray the moral implications of those actions.  I feel like they're setting her (and the viewers) up for a fall.  In that sense,  my suspicions about her are largely speculative and I don't deny that.   

For the record,  I personally find the character much more compelling and perhaps even likeable as a potential villain than as the 'savior' of the story.  

[Morgana Lannister]

20 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

She wasnt imprisoned, like I said.

How is this different from Aerys naming Jaime to Kingsguard. People fail to see that absolute monarchy is terrible (Yes, you have Jahaerys I, but you alse have Aegon IV, Maegor,...) and that there is not much difference between slavery and feudalism, have you seen how smallfolk live in Westeros. Real progress would be abolishing both of them, but again you have to have a plan and be aware that this might take couple of generation, not couple of words.

Dont make a mistake, I strongly dislike Dotrakhi and their customs, but I am no fan of Westerosi ones either.

Agreed but for me Dany acted like anyone would have in her shoes.  Not necessarily "for the greater good" but for self-preservation, but then what is wrong with self-preservation?  To be honest if I had her abilities with fire and someone tried to lock me up in the Dothraki equivalent of a convent, not only I would have done the same but I doubt I would feel very guilty about it   but then again I am falling into the trap that I usually hate (i.e. viewing events from my today's society point of view), although in all truth I am certain that in all eras there have been people who would have done anything to avoid permanent confinement.  I guess if Cersei, say, ends up under the equivalent of "house arrest" in Casterly Rock or something I wouldn't say I would blame her if she escaped lol

[blckp]

16 hours ago, bb1180 said:

It doesn't make Dany a villain,  either.  My suspicion about Dany becoming a villain in this story comes about partially due to some of her actions,  but mainly due to how the producers portray the moral implications of those actions.  I feel like they're setting her (and the viewers) up for a fall.  In that sense,  my suspicions about her are largely speculative and I don't deny that.   

For the record,  I personally find the character much more compelling and perhaps even likeable as a potential villain than as the 'savior' of the story.  

what actions?

i find jon snow boring and his never changing wooden face, and i think he would have been more interesting if he was like theon, but doubt fan wish means anything, either way 5 main characters fate is set on stone

[bb1180]

4 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I don't think Dany is morally pure, I just think that the Dothraki arson isn't even on the top of her morally compromised deeds.

Agreed.  Don't misunderstand me,  I'm not defending them or even attacking her.  She obviously had her reasons for doing what she did. I just think its too easy to ignore the moral implications of her actions when she's facing off against the scum of the earth.  

[Lord Friendzone]

13 minutes ago, blckp said:

what actions?

i find jon snow boring and his never changing wooden face, and i think he would have been more interesting if he was like theon, but doubt fan wish means anything, either way 5 main characters fate is set on stone

I must say his storyline and character arc got interesting a lot more. If you actually read the books, you know that's pretty much Jon. In fact his character is one of the hardest to put on the screen as the beauty are his inner thoughts, he never says that much. They made him more of action hero on the show, skip for me a lot of inteesting things about him as LC for example but thy did with other character too. For particural Dany. Btw Dany was like this for two seasons straight to out dissapointment.

I'd say more than 5 characters Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei will get pretty much same ending and who knows who else.

[bb1180]

5 minutes ago, blckp said:

what actions?

i find jon snow boring and his never changing wooden face, and i think he would have been more interesting if he was like theon, but doubt fan wish means anything, either way 5 main characters fate is set on stone

Crucifying people,  burning them alive with dragons,  burning them alive in temples,  that sort of thing.  But yes,  they were horribly evil,  so that justifies any punishment that she cares to dole out.  

 

[RoamingRonin]

People that think Dany is the ultimate antagonist are the same people that thought Ned was the ultimate protagonist. 

He fought nobly and with honor and he died. Westeros needs a conqueror. 

[King Edd of House Tollet]

I think it would be actually nice if the final showdown would be Jon & Bran Vs Dany instead of Everyone vs Others

[lakin1013]

49 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

It doesn't make Dany a villain,  either.  My suspicion about Dany becoming a villain in this story comes about partially due to some of her actions,  but mainly due to how the producers portray the moral implications of those actions. 

I want to comment on how the producers 'show' her story.  I watched carefully last night as she gave her unnecessary sermon on the mount, where she attempted to raise the already raised ardency level of her ardent followers, I guess to ultimate ardentdom.  The camera pulled in close to her face and she was enjoying it. She is still a young woman and this is probably thrilling, like huge crowds at a rock concert.  But eating up this kind of worshipful power can be dangerous. 

Why did they show it that way?  Then followup with the 'I take what is mine' line.  For a viewer, for this viewer, this became worrisome. 

[Ingelheim]

27 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

People that think Dany is the ultimate antagonist are the same people that thought Ned was the ultimate protagonist. 

He fought nobly and with honor and he died. Westeros needs a conqueror. 

That doesn't really make any sense, sorry. What does Ned and honor have anything to do with Dany?

Jon Snow fought nobly and with honor and he died. And, if you ask me, he's even more important to the plot than Dany (he's the main character of the series IMO). 

Dany can make many things of herself. A conqueror is probably one of them. But a conqueror doesn't really mean she's going to be good. On the contrary, with every season I see more and more of the Mad King in Dany. 

I mean, sure, let's bring this horde of rapists and murderers to Westeros. That's going to help her gain the trust of the people, yeah...

[TheRevanchist]

2 hours ago, blckp said:

i think when she arrives westeros, probably most of westeros will be occupied by WW( anyway most of westores people died war of 5 kings)

and hunger and cold,

she will probably end up as ultimate saver,

 

That is what I originally though. But that looks to much Lord of The Rings-Wheel of Time style. Martin likes to surprise us, so I doubt we will have the ultimate savior.

My predictions (completely different to before):

- Daenerys is the main baddy. The Others will help Jon and co to stop her or
- There is no main baddy at all. Jon and Daenerys might clash (and die) but it won't be as one being the savior and the other as villain.

Similarly, I think that R'hllor and the Great Other either are the same God, or there is no God at all. Really, there is no chance at all that Rhllor is the good one and The Great Other is the bad one. Too much work has be done to tell us that there is no absolute good and evil, to only finish in the end with a clash of gods.

 

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

22 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

That doesn't really make any sense, sorry. What does Ned and honor have anything to do with Dany?

Jon Snow fought nobly and with honor and he died. And, if you ask me, he's even more important to the plot than Dany (he's the main character of the series IMO). 

Dany can make many things of herself. A conqueror is probably one of them. But a conqueror doesn't really mean she's going to be good. On the contrary, with every season I see more and more of the Mad King in Dany. 

I mean, sure, let's bring this horde of rapists and murderers to Westeros. That's going to help her gain the trust of the people, yeah...

Give examples of the insanity of Daenerys Targaryen please.  I only ask because people keep saying this but I see absolutely no evidence of it.

Robbs army raped and murdered, as did the Lannisters. Jon let rapists and murderers past the wall, the Night's watch is full of rapists and murderers as well. Westeros is not exactly setting a good standard in the rape and murder department.

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

30 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

I want to comment on how the producers 'show' her story.  I watched carefully last night as she gave her unnecessary sermon on the mount, where she attempted to raise the already raised ardency level of her ardent followers, I guess to ultimate ardentdom.  The camera pulled in close to her face and she was enjoying it. She is still a young woman and this is probably thrilling, like huge crowds at a rock concert.  But eating up this kind of worshipful power can be dangerous. 

Why did they show it that way?  Then followup with the 'I take what is mine' line.  For a viewer, for this viewer, this became worrisome. 

I looked it as although she had won leadership of the Dothraki, it is a clear difference to persuade them to cross the black salt sea. I think that speech and show of power with Drogon was to ensure they would go to Westeros with her.

[Ingelheim]

1 minute ago, Dany's Golden Fleece said:

Give examples of the insanity of Daenerys Targaryen please.  I only ask because people keep saying this but I see absolutely no evidence of it.

Robbs army raped and murdered, as did the Lannisters. Jon let rapists and murderers past the wall, the Night's watch is full of rapists and murderers as well. Westeros is not exactly setting a good standard in the rape and murder department.

Emm I'm not really going to start a discussion on rape, because it's neither the forum nor the time, but if you want to compare the Dothraki and ANY WESTEROSI ARMY (from the North to the Lannister one, I don't care), so be it. Westerosi Armies have rapists. Dothrakis are rapists. There's a difference.

The Dothraki kill and rape as part of their culture. It's what they are. They conquer, they kill, they rape. Period. Nothing else, nothing more. If you want to compare that with Robb's army, or some Wildlings that needed to be saved ASAP, do it. It's really pointless to discuss anything further if you think that way.

By the way, wildling culture is also disgusting, even to Westerosi standards. But at least they can be reasoned with. You can make alliances with them. You can hold them. I doubt Dany could do that to her 100,000 dothrakis.

And, for Dany...well, you have the scene in Episode 4 when she literally burns everyone around her (that's not bad in itself, it's just the way she looked at them, at the fire, that freaks me out.), her speech this episode, the way she fed one of the Great Masters to Viserion last Season (with no proof of anything, he just chose some random guy of the group)...I'm sure I'm forgetting some scenes because, honestly, I never liked Dany, both on the books and the Show, so I try to skip her scenes if I can.

[bb1180]

32 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

I want to comment on how the producers 'show' her story.  I watched carefully last night as she gave her unnecessary sermon on the mount, where she attempted to raise the already raised ardency level of her ardent followers, I guess to ultimate ardentdom.  The camera pulled in close to her face and she was enjoying it. She is still a young woman and this is probably thrilling, like huge crowds at a rock concert.  But eating up this kind of worshipful power can be dangerous. 

Why did they show it that way?  Then followup with the 'I take what is mine' line.  For a viewer, for this viewer, this became worrisome. 

Obviously,  I don't know for certain if there's a darker,  more villainous turn in store for Dany,  but if we consider that there might be,  then the producers would need to be dropping hints to that effect,  so that it doesn't seem to come from nowhere.  Myself,  I think they've been doing that for a while.  

 

[RhaenysBee]

Daenerys is not an antagonist. I mean I don't like Tyrion and I don't like the Baratheons and I hate the Greyjoys but that doesn't make them antagonists.