Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire 5: Tyrion Targaryen

[Ser Creighton]

19 hours ago, LmL said:

Hey @Ser Creighton great to see you, as always. And as always, very entertaining and insightful comments. I'll have to think about this one in particular:

I've been pondering the various color pairings and inversions and trying to make sense of them, and this though hadn't occurred to me. General we see black and red paired together, and blue and white. But the trees invert this, although weirwoods to bring black into the picture with the black ravens which tend to perch in them and the black pond beneath the most significant of weirwoods. @Sly Wren and I like to go round and round about whether the needed "hero's sword" will be a black sword burning red (my vote) or a white sword burning red (Sly Wren's vote). Not sure if you have read Sly's essay about Jon and the Sword of the Morning, but I think you probably like it. 

 

LoL got a kick out of this last paragraph. 

 

Ditto on all of this.

As for lions and dragons in general, I believe the main thing is this idea of the sun transforming. In classical Alchemical 'doctrine,' as it were, they make a big deal out of the idea that everything and everyone has a shadow or shadow self. They saw the bright sun as a lion and the "dark sun" or "night sun" as a dragon.  That's what he's referencing, I believe, when he's taking about the twisted gargoyles in Bran's dream with the line "they might have been lions once." The Lion of Night is another way of expressing the darkened sun idea - the inversion of a bright solar lion. In Yi Tish legend, the Lion of Night comes out to ravage the earth during the Long Night, where previously he and the maiden made of light (the bright sun who hid her face during the LN) were in harmony. A great callout to these ideas comes in the form of the black tomcat Arya chases around in King's Landing. That is of course Princess Rhaenys' cat named Balerion. That's a black cat (Lion of Night) named after the black dragon of black dragons, Balerion. Arya herself is a supreme death goddess - she's a Nightwolf, a Dark Heart, Blood Child, and a Cat - a Lioness of Night, I would say. Lots of great symbolism I am saving for an Arya essay going on in King's Landing and at Harrenhall (where she becomes "the ghost in Harrenhall"). 

Shadows cats are the same idea as the Lion of Night. Shadow-cat. 

So as for Dany and her white lion pelt... after she is reborn in fire, she talks about wearing the pelt to show everyone that Drogo's strength resided inside her. Drogo is of course a prime solar character, so Dany's white lion pelt kind of shows her bright solar side. My theory is that after the rebirth in the pyre, she becomes a solar character, so the black dragon / white lion duality might be showing us the bright sun / dark sun thing. Of course the black dragon symbol is mainly a reference to the moon meteor children of sun and moon, which is one half reborn sun and one half reborn moon. So... it gets a bit murky after the end of AGOT, because she is clearly taking on many solar symbols and becoming a Khaleesi and a Queen, but she still occasionally manifests her moon symbolism. Before her rebirth in the pyre, it's all very clean - she's the moon, Drogo her sun. 

For example, I believe she is doing the two moon w-ives thing that many solar kings like Aegon the C and Rhaegar do... but she takes an ice husband and fire husband instead. Daario, who looks oh so Targaryen in many scenes with his purple and gold coloring and fiery personality, would be her fire moon husband, while Hizdhar of the icy dream cock and tepid kisses would be her icy moon husband. George seems to like to repeat the sun and moon rebirth cycles with his characters in many chapters - they don't just do it once and that's it. Moon do the Nissa Nissa on multiple occasions, so I do not think we are meant to view the entire plot arc as the only iteration of the Lightbringer forging pattern. I think you really have to take each scene and chapter on its own. 

I wouldn't swear to any of that, of course. I'm always confident in my main hypothesis, but the finer points are clearly quite subjective and it's very easy to read patterns into things when we have so many repeating symbols. I usually tend to grab the most clear examples of things for the essays. 

Anyway the Tyrion - sphinx thing is pretty cool and something which I'll have to loo into further. I really think it has to do with becoming a dragonrider - the riddle of the sphinx has to do with the dragon bond. I like that theory anyway. The idea that a dragon statue with a human head represents a human in control of the human-animal bond is something @Evolett has suggested. She also suggests the symbol of Robb with his direwolf's head, both in Dany's vision in the HOTU and in real life, suggests a man who did not master his human-animal bond. 

I am going to play with this idea for a minute. If you adjust it a little bit, the transformation of the sun is not into that of a dark sun but into a moon. That is the natural cyclical order. Or you can think of the planet that revolves around the sun, half in day, half in night. It is one thing but it represents both at any given moment. It's a pair, a cyclical duality, they may be symbolically different but the same idea flows through them.

So when you look at Maiden and Lion, you see a true inversion. The classical symbolism of the moon is female, the sun male. But not in this case, the symbolism has been inverted. But not all that different, just a gender reversal. So with Dany you talk about transformation. She was very clearly symbolic of the moon before the last chapter, and in the maiden aspect of her life. A moon maiden so to speak. But then you get to that transformation you talk about. The pyre, one of the most significant moments in the books. Dany had the symbolism of moon and water going into the final two chapters. The pyre all at once becomes life and death, male and female, light and dark the moon maiden becomes a maiden of light. As twilight took hold, the transformation began. The fire burns through the night, and Dany rises the maiden made of light with the sun. Her moon symbolism had set. Her role also changes, she goes from female symbolism to near male symbolism. In that world not ours. Dany will soon be called a mother, but she isn't exactly a mother. Her closest children are the Dragons. In her new world she leads her Khalasar, she fights wars, she commands an army, she is the Conqueror, she has bells in her hair. It's role reversal from her time with Drogo, she takes her lovers, they do not taker her. Her role inverted, her symbolism inverted. 

And to be clear for women if they read this I am speaking of the context of that world. In our world you boss me around all the time and drag me to bed at your desire. You always give me directions even though the navigation system in every car is perfectly serviceable.

So the idea is weather you are a cat or bird, a man or a woman. The symbolism can be inverted. Now of course the natural classical symbolism of the lion is male and moon female. Now take that Rat cook I mentioned, the person he fed was suppose to be an Andel king. That King was either a lion, or a Moon. Sun and Moon. I say why can't it be both, just like we see with Dany. One may be literal and the other symbolic but it's still the same idea. A simple marriage can make that transformation in a literal sense. Notice the name Tywell and Oswell, they could be twins they could be the same person. Sun and Moon Tywell and Oswell. But the symbolic idea, the nature of it is there. The transformation is there the son becomes the moon.

The same idea occurs in Dany's prophecy. When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. It's a view on Perspective, it's cyclical, it's the natural rotation of the planet, and on the symbolically it's just Dany going from Essos to Westeros, the sun moves. The black and white is cyclical duality, Dany from moon, to sun, perhaps to moon again. It's a cycle. Like you say drogo was a solar character, a Lion of Light. But you did not need a Lion of light, you already have a lion of night, you needed a maiden made of light. They both have that duality, just as Jon has that duality, fire and ice.

Now when you talk about Hiz and Darrio, you have the right idea. Though I would consider them stand ins for the real deal. You have a Crow Commander with a hint of Targaryen, and you have Tepid slave master. There is another crow commander with hints of Targaryen, will call him Juan Snowlo, and of course King frozen cock, which is who she is dreaming of. Or we could call it a nightmare.

As for the Sphinx symbolism with Tyrion, as with any symbolism look at it in more than one way, explore it. Now I think Tyrion will ride a dragon as well, but that does not mean it's the only meaning to it. Do you remember when he was sailing near Valyria, he saw a moon so large and bright it looked as if it had swallowed a sun, and their on the water was it's reflection. Who is he going to? Now if you think about that idea with the Sphinxes it's the same idea, parallels that have inverted symbolism, that is the nature of our reflections they are always inverted. The sphinxes always in pairs, symbolic duality, the sun and moon together, a duality, with it opposite looking up at it from the water. And what sphinxes after all? What are their names? Sol and Luna.

Every page should be taken on it's merit of course, every plot and twist it's own device. But the essence of a story will never change, that is why it's called a Song of Ice and fire after all, because that is the heart of the story. What flows from that can have many different tales, many different events, adventures, pain, life and death, politics, love, hate, revenge, dragons and giants, Zombies, but at it's core is the duality of us. That's why it speaks to so many people, it's our own nature, we all live and die, we all have our light and dark sides, we all have our ice and fire, our suns and moons, our inner Lions and wolves. Lions and Wolves sun and moon. Dragons, Sun kisses the moon, sun and moon. Arya and Sansa, sun and moon.

You may be as different as the sun and the moon but the same blood flows through your hearts. Sansa a Lady, Arya a Tomboy, even pretended to be a boy. Arya the Wolf, later becomes a Cat in a place famed for Moon Singers.

It's always open to interpretation of course. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maia]

On 6.6.2016 at 1:46 AM, Elisabetta Duò said:

I feel like if Tywin weren't Tyrion's father, then:

1. yeah he killed him but technically it wasn't kinslaying (easy way out);

 

If Tyrion is to return to Westeros and is intended to become active and effective in Westerosi politics again, he does need to be slightly white-washed re: kinslaying. Otherwise, he'll  just be a burden, rather than an asset. And yes, it still would be one since with A+J=T, Tywin  would have been his first cousin once removed and foster-father. Theon was despised as a kinslayer for ostensibly murdering his foster-brothers, with whom he didn't share any blood at all. And, ironically, people would still blame Tyrion for Joffrey's murder. So, yea, no easy way out, but at least the PR narrative of Tyrion avenging Targaryens or something, would allow Westerosi to hold their noses  and agree to deal with him.

 

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2. Tywin didn't want him as his son, never treated him as such and guess what, in the end he wasn't (that would be cheesy imo.. most of us had a lovely childhood but some fathers do treat their own sons like s*** at times, sadly… and the childs can dream someone else is their true father, but it's not);

Already covered by Sam's plot-line, surely.

Also, adds an interesting wrinkle that despite all his villainy, where most noblemen in his position would have killed the child once they realised the truth, or at least sent it far away, Tywin Lannister found it in himself to raise Tyrion as his son in his own home. A hated son, perhaps, but still. Like Petunia - "and yet (s)he took you in." IMHO that revelation would make  Tyrion feel guiltier about his patricide than his current fear of the kinslayer's curse and stigma.

And let's not forget that A+J=T doesn't provide Tyrion with some dream father, but with the despised and horrifying Mad King himself, as well as  with the realisation that he was more than likely a product of rape and that his mother didn't want him either - she just didn't manage to rid herself of the pregnancy. Oh, and that he doesn't have any right to CR. Now, getting a dragon out of it would provide some compensation, but all in all that's far from a wish-fulfillment dream about getting better parent(s).    
 

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3. Tyrion felt like he was an outcast all his life and if he's not Tywin's son, it fits the stereotype of the adpted child who doesn't fit in the family and wasn't truly meant to a member of that family because his true parents are others

 

But that's not exactly true - Tyrion's younger uncles loved him, Aunt Gemma quarelled with Tywin over him, even Kevan was usually nice to him,  etc. But Tyrion, Theon-like craved love and acceptance from the top dogs in the family and moped over not getting it from his father and sister, while taking for granted and not appreciating the love he got from all these other family members. Only in ADwD does he think back and admit that no, Jaime wasn't the only one to show him love and kindness in his own family, he just didn't value anybody else's affection enough. And that's the funny thing -  Tyrion fit into his extended family far better than Tywin and Cersei did. They were the odd people out, really, not him.  

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4. Cersei hated him and Jamie betrayed him about Tysha but they were his half-brothers after all, {snip} only expected that the 'evil' Lannisters are justifyed to treat Trion like shit;

Not seeing this - they were still siblings, who had the same mother. You are not supposed to treat your foster-siblings, who don't share blood with you like shit either. Nor was Jon treated like shit by his siblings  - difference in status was anknowledged, yes, but that was just the reality of his situation, nothing malicious.

Cersei was also beyond ungrateful after Tyrion saved her and Joff's bacon in ACoK. As to Jaime, I do think that his rescue of Tyrion from the Black Cells and the fact that he had been obviously played like a fiddle by Tywin and didn't know about the gang rape until after the fact _should_ mitigate Tyrion's hatred and desire for revenge against him, at least somewhat. 

 

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5. Tyrion will seek revenge against his enemies, but they won't be 100% his own blood, especially in a world where generally speaking, who your father is counts more than who your mother is.

That's hair-splitting though. Sharing a mother and even mother's milk was shown to be important, being raised together ditto. Tyrion is still related to his family through his mother. And frankly, I am not sure that Tyrion will be in position to extract revenge from his siblings. 

 

 

[LmL]

Loved all your comments @Maia! I tend to agree with your take on things, and a couple of those points you made are ones I had not considered. Excellent analysis. 

[Equilibrium]

Read it, good as always. I have always been one for secret parentage theories, Tyrion Targ was always on the line for me, it has much basis but would shift the view of Tyrion killing Tywin which is kinda of big deal. I heard a couple of chimerism theories, especially ones with sister, that are much more to my liking then straight A+J, it would add SPHINX SYMBOLISM, as he would then be dragon, lion, man, woman whole package. He would be the riddle, while also the riddler. Curiously enough this can be applied to Varys also, who is really fond of riddles.

Also best thing I took from this essay was impending Euron vs Tyrion conflict, more then predicted by extensive listing of their similarities I pointed out last time. If we follow Sun Wukong's parallels, Euron is perfect candidate for both sea dragon and demon king, and only character with real magic armor for Tyrion to steal. We can call the confrontation Demonbowl.

Fun fact, while both Tyrion and Euron have one black eye, their second is green and blue respectfully. Bloodraven has one red eye and black empty socket (or as pure conjecture his other eye was black as he is also likely candidate of chimerism because of skin discoloration) Trio symbolically represents three symbolic colors of underlaying magic forces. 

 

[LmL]

On June 17, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Equilibrium said:

Read it, good as always. I have always been one for secret parentage theories, Tyrion Targ was always on the line for me, it has much basis but would shift the view of Tyrion killing Tywin which is kinda of big deal. I heard a couple of chimerism theories, especially ones with sister, that are much more to my liking then straight A+J, it would add SPHINX SYMBOLISM, as he would then be dragon, lion, man, woman whole package. He would be the riddle, while also the riddler. Curiously enough this can be applied to Varys also, who is really fond of riddles.

Also best thing I took from this essay was impending Euron vs Tyrion conflict, more then predicted by extensive listing of their similarities I pointed out last time. If we follow Sun Wukong's parallels, Euron is perfect candidate for both sea dragon and demon king, and only character with real magic armor for Tyrion to steal. We can call the confrontation Demonbowl.

Fun fact, while both Tyrion and Euron have one black eye, their second is green and blue respectfully. Bloodraven has one red eye and black empty socket (or as pure conjecture his other eye was black as he is also likely candidate of chimerism because of skin discoloration) Trio symbolically represents three symbolic colors of underlaying magic forces. 

 

I very much like the chimera idea - I just can't imagine how we'd ever have that revealed in the novel. Perhaps it's one of those things that's implied to the reader but never confirmed, or maybe after the books are all done George will just tell us one day that that's the deal. 

If Tyrion were to steal Euron's armor, that would be truly awesome. We never know how far George may carry a correlation, but if we see this happen, it would surely be a Sun Wukong parallel and you will have called it! I'm officially rooting for this outcome. 

I've wondered about the mismatched eye color, but never compared Tyrion to Euron. We also have Shiera Sea-Star, who had one green eye and one blue. Love her name btw - "shiera qiya" means bleeding star in Dothraki, and I think shiera = bleeding, so Bloodraven's lady friend was really "bleeding sea star."

And yes, red - green - blue, just like the Trident. Color symbolism is such a motherfucker - it's about as subjective as it gets.  

[Equilibrium]

4 minutes ago, LmL said:

I very much like the chimera idea - I just can't imagine how we'd ever have that revealed in the novel. Perhaps it's one of those things that's implied to the reader but never confirmed, or maybe after the books are all done George will just tell us one day that that's the deal. 

If Tyrion were to steal Euron's armor, that would be truly awesome. We never know how far George may carry a correlation, but if we see this happen, it would surely be a Sun Wukong parallel and you will have called it! I'm officially rooting for this outcome. 

I've wondered about the mismatched eye color, but never compared Tyrion to Euron. We also have Shiera Sea-Star, who had one green eye and one blue. Love her name btw - "shiera qiya" means bleeding star in Dothraki, and I think shiera = bleeding, so Bloodraven's lady friend was really "bleeding sea star."

And yes, red - green - blue, just like the Trident. Color symbolism is such a motherfucker - it's about as subjective as it gets.  

We already have Maelys the Monstruous, so chimerism is established as a thing in universe, and can also act as foreshadowing given the references to Tyrion as monster (also all kinslayer stuff).

Well, introducing the armor must have purpose other then Euron having badass armor.

Tyrion and Euron are bound to clash.

Yeah Shiera is important, and with all attention given to red\blue dualism, blue\green dualism is overlooked, life\undeath or normal cycle vs preservation of ice. Red is of course destruction or transformation by fire.

IDK if you are familiar with Persian epic Shahnameh about hero Rostam, specifically about the part in which he and his son are unknowingly duels his son Sohrab, really good depiction of unfortunate circumstances and hubrisleading to tragic conflict. Check it out.

 

[LordImp]

Talking about Eurons armor , i think when Dany has defeated him she will take the armor and wield it while she rides Drogon. Then her dream about using  Rhaegars armor  will be fullfilled. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

Talking about Eurons armor , i think when Dany has defeated him she will take the armor and wield it while she rides Drogon. Then her dream about using  Rhaegars armor  will be fullfilled. 

I'm excited about all the theft-related speculation for TWOW - Euron's armor, the sword Dawn, maybe a dragon via dragonbinder horn... too in Rhaegar's harp while we are at. 

4 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

We already have Maelys the Monstruous, so chimerism is established as a thing in universe, and can also act as foreshadowing given the references to Tyrion as monster (also all kinslayer stuff).

I mean that it is not talked about in a way that the characters understand. How would George reveal this in the books? I can't think of a way. However I like the Tyron / Maelys parallels, especially since Tyrion dreamed of having two heads.

4 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Well, introducing the armor must have purpose other then Euron having badass armor.

Tyrion and Euron are bound to clash.

Yeah I don't see Tyrion advising Dany have anything to do with Ironborn, particularly someone as mad as Euron. 

4 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Yeah Shiera is important, and with all attention given to red\blue dualism, blue\green dualism is overlooked, life\undeath or normal cycle vs preservation of ice. Red is of course destruction or transformation by fire.

There's a holdfast called "Sherrer" which is burned in AGOT - these are the distraught villagers Ned meets before sending Beric out to kill the Mountain. The description of the holdfast is pretty dead on... check out the passage from AGOT when you have a minute. 

4 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

IDK if you are familiar with Persian epic Shahnameh about hero Rostam, specifically about the part in which he and his son are unknowingly duels his son Sohrab, really good depiction of unfortunate circumstances and hubrisleading to tragic conflict. Check it out.

 

Nope, but I'll look it up, TY. 

[Jô Maltese]

Just  two remarks after reading the last 2 pages of this excellent thread:

- POVs: yes, and in A Dance with Dragons, the POVs you are really dancing with when reading are Tyrion, Dany and Jon.

- Sphinxes are half-man / half-lion or half-man / half-dragon? Well, if AJT is true, Tyrion is half-lion / half-dragon. And by nature and popular vote he is already the half-man... 

[Equilibrium]

7 hours ago, LmL said:

I'm excited about all the theft-related speculation for TWOW - Euron's armor, the sword Dawn, maybe a dragon via dragonbinder horn... too in Rhaegar's harp while we are at. 

I mean that it is not talked about in a way that the characters understand. How would George reveal this in the books? I can't think of a way. However I like the Tyron / Maelys parallels, especially since Tyrion dreamed of having two heads.

Yeah I don't see Tyrion advising Dany have anything to do with Ironborn, particularly someone as mad as Euron. 

There's a holdfast called "Sherrer" which is burned in AGOT - these are the distraught villagers Ned meets before sending Beric out to kill the Mountain. The description of the holdfast is pretty dead on... check out the passage from AGOT when you have a minute. 

Nope, but I'll look it up, TY. 

Characters don't have to know, while for us some other dreams and hints would be enough to connect the dots.

Victarion will turn on Euron as well, maybe he even turns Daenerys and Tyrion against him in the first place.

[LmL]

15 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

Just  two remarks after reading the last 2 pages of this excellent thread:

- POVs: yes, and in A Dance with Dragons, the POVs you are really dancing with when reading are Tyrion, Dany and Jon.

- Sphinxes are half-man / half-lion or half-man / half-dragon? Well, if AJT is true, Tyrion is half-lion / half-dragon. And by nature and popular vote he is already the half-man... 

That reminds me of Mya Stone, who is half goat, and also half-two other things - or am I thinking about Ygritte? Actually I think it's Ygritte who somehow has three halves. 

I think we are running out of pie?

[LmL]

8 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Characters don't have to know, while for us some other dreams and hints would be enough to connect the dots.

Victarion will turn on Euron as well, maybe he even turns Daenerys and Tyrion against him in the first place.

That I could get behind. You know I am dying to see what that dragonbinder can do.... and we are all waiting to see what trap Euron has set for Victarion, what Moqorro will do... it should be exciting right at the beginning in Meereen in TWOW. 

If Tyrion is to ride a dragon, when do you think that happens? In Meereen or later? 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

17 minutes ago, LmL said:

That reminds me of Mya Stone, who is half goat, and also half-two other things - or am I thinking about Ygritte? Actually I think it's Ygritte who somehow has three halves. 

I think we are running out of pie?

Or Lyanna, half horse? And with wolf blood...

[Equilibrium]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

That I could get behind. You know I am dying to see what that dragonbinder can do.... and we are all waiting to see what trap Euron has set for Victarion, what Moqorro will do... it should be exciting right at the beginning in Meereen in TWOW. 

If Tyrion is to ride a dragon, when do you think that happens? In Meereen or later? 

Well it most certainly doesn't effect the dragons in the manner Euron said it would. It can have no effect dragons at all as dragonbinder can be interpreted differently. 

In Meereen, only logical conclusion, getting the most of Daenerys' absence. Otherwise it would get too convoluted and drawnout.

 

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Well it most certainly doesn't effect the dragons in the manner Euron said it would. It can have no effect dragons at all as dragonbinder can be interpreted differently. 

In Meereen, only logical conclusion, getting the most of Daenerys' absence. Otherwise it would get too convoluted and drawnout.

 

If that's the case, TWOW should really start with a bang. We might even get an AJT reveal before the RLJ reveal!

[Equilibrium]

Check out the title of new GRRM post on notablog 

http://grrm.livejournal.com/491941.html

[LmL]

7 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Check out the title of new GRRM post on notablog 

http://grrm.livejournal.com/491941.html

Heh heh, I was just writing a bunch about Venus last night.

[Puppy Stark]

I personally think that Tyrion being a Targaryen kind of diminishes him as a character. I mean, most of his conflicts and issues are about his relation with his (presumed) father. Then you put him out as not a legitimate son, and in a way you kind of justify Tywin's attitude towards him. All those complaints about being treated unfair by his father? Well, it turns out they were fair afterall. Plus, his whole claim to Casterly Rock, which is his biggest obsession, is laid to waste. Even his Oedipal pay-off on A Storm of Swords loses all its meaning.

So, though I don't really know where GRRM is really going with him (who knows, it might turn out true in the end), I really think is one of those cases where I hope the fan theorizing is proved wrong.

[LmL]

12 hours ago, Puppy Stark said:

I personally think that Tyrion being a Targaryen kind of diminishes him as a character. I mean, most of his conflicts and issues are about his relation with his (presumed) father. Then you put him out as not a legitimate son, and in a way you kind of justify Tywin's attitude towards him. All those complaints about being treated unfair by his father? Well, it turns out they were fair afterall. Plus, his whole claim to Casterly Rock, which is his biggest obsession, is laid to waste. Even his Oedipal pay-off on A Storm of Swords loses all its meaning.

So, though I don't really know where GRRM is really going with him (who knows, it might turn out true in the end), I really think is one of those cases where I hope the fan theorizing is proved wrong.

Well, it's been covered many times before, but it's worth repeating. Your father is the man who raised you, whether they are your biological father or not. Ned will always be Jons father, and Tywin Tyrion's. Tywin's behavior is not even a tiny bit justified by Tyrion's alternate paternity. He accepted him as his son and therefore is as tesponsible for being Tyrion's father as he is Cersei or Jamie. Turns out, he treated all his children badly. 

As for his killing of Tywin, I think it simply becomes a bit ironic. The whole thing, really - Tywin raised Tyrion, when he really wanted to euthanize him, because he thought he was his blood. To me, that's delicious irony. 

The fact that Tyrion takes after Tywin still makes sense because he learned by observing and copying, not DNA. 

[Bluetiger]

10 hours ago, LmL said:

Well, it's been covered many times before, but it's worth repeating. Your father is the man who raised you, whether they are your biological father or not. Ned will always be Jons father, and Tywin Tyrion's. Tywin's behavior is not even a tiny bit justified by Tyrion's alternate paternity. He accepted him as his son and therefore is as tesponsible for being Tyrion's father as he is Cersei or Jamie. Turns out, he treated all his children badly. 

As for his killing of Tywin, I think it simply becomes a bit ironic. The whole thing, really - Tywin raised Tyrion, when he really wanted to euthanize him, because he thought he was his blood. To me, that's delicious irony. 

The fact that Tyrion takes after Tywin still makes sense because he learned by observing and copying, not DNA. 

Wise man once said 'Why can't it be both?'

Genetics plays a big part in GRRMs 'Thousand Worlds' stories, Jeyne Poole seems to be named after concept of gene pool,  Seton Barth studied biological inheritance, just like Father Gregor Mendel of our world, GRRM was fan of Stan Lee's Marvel comics and DC so House Ironmaker and Erik Ironmaker seem to be named after X-Men character Magneto (Erik Lehnsherr) and gentics and mutations play a big role in that series, so probably George had things like chimerism and conjointed things in mind. I'm not sure but one of GRRM's Wild Cards stories might have some references to it.

According to Wikipedia:  A genetic chimerism or chimera (also spelled chimaera) is a single organism composed of cells from different zygotes. This can result in male and female organs, two blood types, or subtle variations in form.^[1] Animal chimeras are produced by the merger of multiple fertilized eggs. In plant chimeras, however, the distinct types of tissue may originate from the same zygote, and the difference is often due to mutation during ordinary cell division. Normally, genetic chimerism is not visible on casual inspection; however, it has been detected in the course of proving parentage , full article here  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics).

In that situation different parts of person's body can have different DNA, that could explain Tyrion's eyes an hair color. Idea that Tyrion has two different fathers, either in biological or psyschological context, seems to be shown in DwD appendix: 

- her younger daughter, LOLLYS, weak of wit, Lady of Stokeworth,

• her newborn son, TYRION TANNER, of the hundred fathers, - if one Tyrion has 100 fathers, why can't another have 2?

If Tyrion is really Mad King's/Tywins and Aerys's son, this creates interesting parrarel between Jaime and Tyrion, as each killed other's father.

Another hints might be multiple comparisons of Tyrion to  gargoyle, for example:

'And the sight of me can only be salt in her wound. They hacked off her brother's head in the hope that it was mine, yet here I sit like some bloody gargoyle, offering empty consolations. If I were her, I'd want nothing more than to shove me into the sea. '

'Motionless as a gargoyle, Tyrion Lannister hunched on one knee atop a merlon. '

In Greek mythology chimaeras are hybrids consisting of parts from many animials.   'It is usually depicted as a lion, with the head of a goat arising from its back, and a tail that might end with a snake's head' , and in architecture terms gargoyle and chimera are often used sinonymously.