Euro Cup 2016

[polishgenius]

2 hours ago, baxusz said:

Asz I szaid earlier, it isz a pretty lame szuperpower but  gueszsz it'sz better than nothing. 

I don't want to say Spocky is right but the way you're phrasing your argument very definitely comes of as 'can't really blame the Russians'. I think the problem may well be that he doesn't actually have any superpowers and therefore can't read your mind, since what you typed can definitely be construed the way we're construing it, whatever you actually meant to say.

[john]

Well, Baxus' attitude seems to be the same one the Russian ultras have, so you can see how apparently easy it is to get the impression that there's some sort of hooligan league table with England as the champions.

In fact, these days England fans prefer simple drunken, obnoxious chanting.  Which, while annoying, is no cause for a chair around the face.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Just now, john said:

Well, Baxus' attitude seems to be the same one the Russian ultras have, so you can see how apparently easy it is to get the impression that there's some sort of hooligan league table with England as the champions.

In fact, these days England fans prefer simple drunken, obnoxious chanting.  Which, while annoying, is no cause for a chair around the face.

Ahum Ultras and Hooligans are not the same thing. 

Ultras are those singing kiddos who sometimes smuggle bengal fire and such into the stadium. Which is a bit different from those knuckleheads beating the shit out of each other.

[polishgenius]

I think the other thing worth remembering is that the actual English hoolies aren't at these games because they're banned from the stadia and from travelling abroad during football tournaments/matchweeks.

Amusingly enough, someone started a change.org petition to get the police to allow them to travel to France to beat the shit out of the Russians.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 minute ago, DjourouLoveMe? said:

I think the other thing worth remembering is that the actual English hoolies aren't at these games because they're banned from the stadia and from travelling abroad during football tournaments/matchweeks.

Amusingly enough, someone started a change.org petition to get the police to allow them to travel to France to beat the shit out of the Russians.

Now that is indeed amusing. I mean, even if that petition gets the required number of signatures to set the whole process in motion. By the time the travel restrictions are lifted the Russians are back home, and Spain have won the Euros.

[john]

1 hour ago, Notone said:

Ahum Ultras and Hooligans are not the same thing. 

Ultras are those singing kiddos who sometimes smuggle bengal fire and such into the stadium. Which is a bit different from those knuckleheads beating the shit out of each other.

Hmm, maybe it's an english press thing, ultras and hooligans are pretty synonymous to my mind.  Like how casuals aren't just people who go to games in their own clothes.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

No. At least here they are really two seperate groups. And a friend of mine would be quite pissed, if I refered to her as hool, while I actually meant Ultra.

Even wikipedia manages to get a distinction there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultras

Quote

While ultras groups can become violent, the majority of matches attended by ultras conclude with no violent incidents. Unlike hooligan firms, whose main aim is to fighthooligans of other clubs, the main focus of ultras is generally to support their own team.

Locally speaking, here that distinction is really not so unimportant on another level. Most Ultra groups here have a clear anti racist anti fascist tone. While the old hools from the 1980s and '90s tend to have some ties to right wing groups. That of course a very broad distinction. The part of which fan groups have what leaning varies a bit from club to club. 

E.g. Dortmund has big problem with parts of their right wing support (one of the reasons I really do not like them). One of their core Ultra groups the Unity are fighting for a Borussia without Nazis, they also helped/worked with refugees. Jubos another Dortmund Ultra group were targeted by Dortmund's Nazi/Hool group Borussenfront, after Jubos made a public statement against right wing groups trying to hijack them (Fuck Off). Northside is another one of those right wing scum groups who support Dortmund. Though this is really going a good bit off topic, but the ludicrous part is. Members of those right wing hools groups are employed by Borussia Dortmund and working for Stadium security. If that doesn't make you feel much safer.

 

Thinking about it, I am just happy to support club that has succesfully disposed of right wing scum in the 1980s, and has a clear cut left wing leaning. 

[Spockydog]

3 hours ago, DjourouLoveMe? said:

Amusingly enough, someone started a change.org petition to get the police to allow them to travel to France to beat the shit out of the Russians.

 

[baxus]

16 hours ago, Spockydog said:

"And letsz not get too "Engliszh fansz are poor defenceleszsz victimsz" szince it'sz pretty far from accurate.

Engliszh hooligansz have done so much szhit over the decadesz that they are conszidered "fair game" in all of Europe. Not szaying that'sz a good thing but I am szaying that if you want to act all tough then there's no crying after you get szlapped. Live by the szword and all that..."

"I'm not szaying that Engliszh fansz were getting what's coming to them, but I am szaying that Engliszh fansz have a certain reputation and that other countriesz hooligansz do szee them asz a proper target."

Some pretty strong justification right there.

As I said, that's the way other hooligans see English - fair game.

I never said that's ok, or that English fans SHOULD be considered "fair game", but the average hooligan's thought process is much different from most of the boarders'.

Feel free to ignore the fact that English hooligans have caused so much shit over the decades that other groups of similar inclination go out of their way to "have a go" at them. It's a classic story of the boy who cried: "Wolf!" - Englishmen have caused so much crap, no one believes them once they find themselves on the receiving end of the stick.

14 hours ago, DjourouLoveMe? said:

I don't want to say Spocky is right but the way you're phrasing your argument very definitely comes of as 'can't really blame the Russians'. I think the problem may well be that he doesn't actually have any superpowers and therefore can't read your mind, since what you typed can definitely be construed the way we're construing it, whatever you actually meant to say.

Coming of like that was not my intention and I'm certain that my posts could've been interpreted in the intended way but that would require understanding that the whole "poor defenceless English fans who were pounced upon by evil hordes of Russian Uruk-hai" story stinks to high heaven.

I definitely clearly stated multiple time that Russians were worse than English in this confrontation. It's just that I refuse to believe that English fans were just sitting there, discussing philosophy an Russians attacked. Those two are most definitely not mutually exclusive.

12 hours ago, john said:

Well, Baxus' attitude seems to be the same one the Russian ultras have, so you can see how apparently easy it is to get the impression that there's some sort of hooligan league table with England as the champions.

In fact, these days England fans prefer simple drunken, obnoxious chanting.  Which, while annoying, is no cause for a chair around the face.

There definitely is a "hooligan league table" of sorts and I'm pretty sure it works similarly to FIFA rankings - taking into account results from years past, though hooligans seem to count results spanning decades. That's why English fans are involved in incidents at every major tournament, sometimes in away matches during qualifiers and when their clubs travel abroad.

Did some innocent bystanders get caught up in the mayhem? Most definitely. Was every English fan caught in the mayhem an innocent bystander? Hell, no.

11 hours ago, DjourouLoveMe? said:

I think the other thing worth remembering is that the actual English hoolies aren't at these games because they're banned from the stadia and from travelling abroad during football tournaments/matchweeks.

Amusingly enough, someone started a change.org petition to get the police to allow them to travel to France to beat the shit out of the Russians.

Yes, UK authorities and English F.A. have done as much as possible to fight hooliganism, but saying that ALL hooligans are accounted for is a bit naive, don't you think?

There will be some who will go to France and the consequences be damned. More importantly, there will be a new batch of registered hooligans in those databases after this tournament, just like there were after so many tournaments in the past.

On the topic of that change.org petition -  

[Spockydog]

NVM.

 

[john]

It's funny, maybe it is a geographical thing.  As a British football fan the impression I have is that organised hooliganism is generally dead, it's not a big thing any more.  Now, you still get groups of obnoxious, arsehole fans and my countrymen are probably better than most at that side of things but it's a far cry from the coordinated thuggery of the hooligan firms.

At the same time, the media tells me that that kind of organised hooliganism is much more prevalent in eastern europe, russia and the balkans.  Maybe the British FA's are better at keeping a handle on it too, they certainly have more resources.  And apparently the attitude of having something to prove to England fans is prevalent too, or at least among the hooligan groups.  That is kind of cute but a weirdly old fashioned attitude.

So I am more inclined to believe that the England fans weren't specifically looking to cause trouble and Russian and French groups were.  That may be my bias speaking but it is the narrative given by the French prosecutors and the Russian fan association, as well as Russian sports journalists and even Russian MPs.

[Mme Erzulie]

13 hours ago, Notone said:

No. At least here they are really two seperate groups. And a friend of mine would be quite pissed, if I refered to her as hool, while I actually meant Ultra.

Even wikipedia manages to get a distinction there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultras

Locally speaking, here that distinction is really not so unimportant on another level. Most Ultra groups here have a clear anti racist anti fascist tone. While the old hools from the 1980s and '90s tend to have some ties to right wing groups. That of course a very broad distinction. The part of which fan groups have what leaning varies a bit from club to club. 

E.g. Dortmund has big problem with parts of their right wing support (one of the reasons I really do not like them). One of their core Ultra groups the Unity are fighting for a Borussia without Nazis, they also helped/worked with refugees. Jubos another Dortmund Ultra group were targeted by Dortmund's Nazi/Hool group Borussenfront, after Jubos made a public statement against right wing groups trying to hijack them (Fuck Off). Northside is another one of those right wing scum groups who support Dortmund. Though this is really going a good bit off topic, but the ludicrous part is. Members of those right wing hools groups are employed by Borussia Dortmund and working for Stadium security. If that doesn't make you feel much safer.

 

Thinking about it, I am just happy to support club that has succesfully disposed of right wing scum in the 1980s, and has a clear cut left wing leaning. 

And what club is that, out of curiosity? (Also kind of saddened to hear that Dortmund has right-wing ties. It seems like such a cool club in many ways.)

And Baxus, you keep conflating English hooligans of the 80s/90s with English fans today, saying Russians et al want to "have a go at 'them' for all the mayhem they caused 30 years ago", and that they're "crying wolf now that they're on the receiving end of the stick". They're not the same people. Just like 20 year olds in the ex-Yugoslavian countries today are not to blame for the war of the 90s. I'm sure you would be (rightfully) upset if people held you accountable for 30 year old Serbian war crimes. It's not fair and it doesn't make any sense. In the 80s/90s, English hooligans were fucking assholes. Now it seems the Russians have taken over. It wasn't ok when the English did it, and it's not ok when the Russians are doing it now. "Crying wolf" has got nothing to do with anything.

[Spockydog]

Indeed. If most people thought like Baxus, then he'd be a racist, murdering asshole with a penchant for ethnic cleansing.

But luckily, most normal people don't think like that.

[Spockydog]

From the Guardian:

Russia handed suspended Euro 2016 disqualification and fined €150,000

Quote

Russia have been handed a suspended disqualification from Euro 2016 over crowd disturbances at the game against England in Marseille on Saturday, Uefa has announced.

Charges from the governing body to the Russian Football Union relate to “crowd disturbances, use of fireworks and racist behaviour” around the 1-1 draw with England at the Stade Vélodrome on Saturday.

Uefa’s control, ethics and disciplinary body met in Paris to consider the case and imposed the suspended disqualification and a €150,000 financial penalty. However, any further incidents of crowd disturbance inside grounds at Russia’s matches during the European Championship will see the suspension lifted and the country thrown out of Euro 2016.

Further trouble is almost guaranteed, so it will be interesting to see if UEFA have the cojones to follow through on this.

[Jon AS]

1 hour ago, Mmerek Hamšzulíe said:

Also kind of saddened to hear that Dortmund has right-wing ties. It seems like such a cool club in many ways.

Dortmund as a club doesn't have right-wing ties, just a not insignificant number of supporters who do.

[baxus]

3 hours ago, Mmerek Hamšzulíe said:

And Baxus, you keep conflating English hooligans of the 80s/90s with English fans today, saying Russians et al want to "have a go at 'them' for all the mayhem they caused 30 years ago", and that they're "crying wolf now that they're on the receiving end of the stick". They're not the same people. Just like 20 year olds in the ex-Yugoslavian countries today are not to blame for the war of the 90s. I'm sure you would be (rightfully) upset if people held you accountable for 30 year old Serbian war crimes. It's not fair and it doesn't make any sense. In the 80s/90s, English hooligans were fucking assholes. Now it seems the Russians have taken over. It wasn't ok when the English did it, and it's not ok when the Russians are doing it now. "Crying wolf" has got nothing to do with anything.

First of all, English hooliganism is far from dead. It's nowhere near the level it was at during '80s and '90s but it's still there, even if it's not as popular a topic as it once was.

Second of all, I didn't accuse ALL English people for being hooligans, I haven't even accused all English football fans of being hooligans so the comparison you went for is way off the mark. Had I held Spockydog accountable for actions of English hooligans years ago, then the comparison would be appropriate.

If people held me accountable for 20 (not 30, but not that important really) year old war crimes, I'd laugh at their face since I wasn't even in my teens then. Still, if I ignored the fact too many of the politicians who were in office back then are back in power in Serbia (though they have "changed" their stands on many of those topics) it would be either naive or malicious.

2 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Indeed. If most people thought like Baxus, then he'd be a racist, murdering asshole with a penchant for ethnic cleansing.

But luckily, most normal people don't think like that.

First of all, I'd say that ALL normal don't think like that.

To be honest, I wasn't aware that Serbian software developers and endurance sports enthusiasts in their early thirties have a reputation for racism, murdering and ethnic cleansing.

The very fact you'd bring that up shows how little you actually know about all that, so let's leave it at that and not derail the thread.

Also, if I were a member of a nation that conquered and plundered half the world for centuries, I wouldn't be so eager to play the "national stereotypes" game as you seem to be.

[ants]

Has there been any issues with England fans across the previous three major tournaments? 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

2 hours ago, Eoin AS said:

Dortmund as a club doesn't have right-wing ties, just a not insignificant number of supporters who do.

Yes, but the club is not really bringing the hammer down on those groups as hard as it should. That's why I mentioned that some of those right wing morons even working for the stadium security. And the big non-nazi fraction of their support can blame themselves for that situation, and they do. They did not fight that infestation of their fanscene hard enough in the 1990s, when it took roots. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

4 hours ago, Mmerek Hamšzulíe said:

And what club is that, out of curiosity? (Also kind of saddened to hear that Dortmund has right-wing ties. It seems like such a cool club in many ways.)

And Baxus, you keep conflating English hooligans of the 80s/90s with English fans today, saying Russians et al want to "have a go at 'them' for all the mayhem they caused 30 years ago", and that they're "crying wolf now that they're on the receiving end of the stick". They're not the same people. Just like 20 year olds in the ex-Yugoslavian countries today are not to blame for the war of the 90s. I'm sure you would be (rightfully) upset if people held you accountable for 30 year old Serbian war crimes. It's not fair and it doesn't make any sense. In the 80s/90s, English hooligans were fucking assholes. Now it seems the Russians have taken over. It wasn't ok when the English did it, and it's not ok when the Russians are doing it now. "Crying wolf" has got nothing to do with anything.

The club itself does not entertain right wing ties. Just a not so minor part of their fanscene is infested. And the club should bring the hammer down much harder on those groups, and be much more particular about who they hire. It's a bit harsh on my part to put too much blame on the club though, since the city of Dortmund is more or less the centre for right wing scum in western Germany. 

Of course that's extremely sanctimonious coming from me. Forza St. Pauli.

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, baxusz said:

Also, if I were a member of a nation that conquered and plundered half the world for centuries, I wouldn't be so eager to play the "national stereotypes" game as you seem to be.

The irony is hilarious.