How Much Did GRRM tell D&D?

[HairGrowsBack]

Adding my two cents : At the end of the day, I really don't think it matters how much they know : they will keep on doing as they please with the material they are given. I mean, just look at what they've done to already published material; would you really tell someone who hasn't read AFFC and ADwD :"don't watch the show first, it's full of spoilers !" ? I doubt it, because the show has little to do with the books anymore. 

Sure, we'll confirm stuff like R+L=J, or we'll know who sits the IT in the end, but that's not why I read the books.

[mormont]

14 hours ago, lancerman said:

He is contractually obligated to give them the story or as much of it he can supply.

You have a copy of the contract?

The idea that GRRM is now changing his story because he wants to make it different to the show, by the way, is not his style at all. That way madness lies. He'll ignore the show and tell his story the way he wants to tell it. It's the only way he works. I'm not saying the show doesn't affect his writing at all - everything affects a writer, that's part of the job - but he's not going to avoid show similarities out of some desperate desire to appear unique.

[Ser Gareth]

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I think you forgot Val, and Mance's child in your long list. Some will disagree about how much important Val is. But she is dear to me. And if Jon is ever king, she will be his queen.

No chance.  If Jon ends up King then he will end up King in the show too.  And if Val was that important to that end game then she'd be in the show.

Personally I think Val's reaction to Shireen has already earmarked her as a future casualty.

[Ser Gareth]

5 hours ago, mormont said:

You have a copy of the contract?

The idea that GRRM is now changing his story because he wants to make it different to the show, by the way, is not his style at all. That way madness lies. He'll ignore the show and tell his story the way he wants to tell it. It's the only way he works. I'm not saying the show doesn't affect his writing at all - everything affects a writer, that's part of the job - but he's not going to avoid show similarities out of some desperate desire to appear unique.

Original intention - Tell the entire story using the POV characters from AGOT.  Scrapped.

Original intention - 5 year gap.  Scrapped.

The next book split into two, ADWD to be a year after AFFC.  Took 6 years.

The next book will be faster because the whole delay with the last two books was the Meerenese knot.  5 years later, no book.

TV show not a problem as book series will be finished before the TV series is.  TV series will likely finish before TWOW comes out.

GRRM is also a self gardener (I dispute this personally, I just think he has got so involved with meaningless world building that the story has completely got away from him and he now feels obligated to finish the story arcs of all the minor characters he has introduced along the way (and continually introduces along the way).

So yeah, I don't think even GRRM knows what he is going to be doing because GRRM historically has changed his mind on important matters frequently.  But GRRM is only human and therefore has an ego.  His ego right now must be taking a battering.  My experience with people whose ego's are taking a battering?  They do things out of character or react emotionally.

So I don't really see how anyone can say with ironclad certainty that GRRM won't know try and change key elements to the plot.  Because even if GRRM originally said he wouldn't?  He has form for doing u-turns.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

40 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

No chance.  If Jon ends up King then he will end up King in the show too.  And if Val was that important to that end game then she'd be in the show.

Personally I think Val's reaction to Shireen has already earmarked her as a future casualty.

That is what I really hate with this forum. If you are not in the show, you are no one.

6 hours ago, mormont said:

You have a copy of the contract?

And the fact that half the people seem to know what there is in this contract. And use it to say what GRRM can't do.

[Ser Gareth]

Just now, BalerionTheCat said:

That is what I really hate with this forum. If you are not in the show, you are no one.

And the fact that half the people seem to know what there is in this contract. And use it to say what GRRM can't do.

I'd say there was a strong element of truth in it in terms of that characters importance to the end game.

In the original intention Jon/Arya was going to be a bit of a thing.  It was also foreshadowed a little in AGOT.  Whether GRRM has scrapped that we'll wait and see.  But it could well be the bittersweet ending will be Jon & Arya becoming King & Queen (also foreshadowed Arya being Queen) and then the FM finally catching up to Arya and killing her.

[Werthead]

48 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Original intention - Tell the entire story using the POV characters from AGOT.  Scrapped.

Original intention - 5 year gap.  Scrapped.

The next book split into two, ADWD to be a year after AFFC.  Took 6 years.

The next book will be faster because the whole delay with the last two books was the Meerenese knot.  5 years later, no book.

TV show not a problem as book series will be finished before the TV series is.  TV series will likely finish before TWOW comes out.

GRRM is also a self gardener (I dispute this personally, I just think he has got so involved with meaningless world building that the story has completely got away from him and he now feels obligated to finish the story arcs of all the minor characters he has introduced along the way (and continually introduces along the way).

So yeah, I don't think even GRRM knows what he is going to be doing because GRRM historically has changed his mind on important matters frequently.  But GRRM is only human and therefore has an ego.  His ego right now must be taking a battering.  My experience with people whose ego's are taking a battering?  They do things out of character or react emotionally.

So I don't really see how anyone can say with ironclad certainty that GRRM won't know try and change key elements to the plot.  Because even if GRRM originally said he wouldn't?  He has form for doing u-turns.

 

George changes things if he comes up with a better idea, or if it clarifies a plot point better. He certainly doesn't change things for commercial reasons, or in response to external pressure.

Having now spent 25 years (almost exactly) working on this series, he is not going to start changing the fates of characters solely to be different to the show. If he comes up with an idea which is better and also doesn't contradict previous foreshadowing, he'll certainly do it (and already has, from the sound of it), but he's not going to change things just to be different to the show for difference's sake.  There is really no reason whatsoever to do that.

[Ser Gareth]

2 minutes ago, Werthead said:

George changes things if he comes up with a better idea, or if it clarifies a plot point better. He certainly doesn't change things for commercial reasons, or in response to external pressure.

Having now spent 25 years (almost exactly) working on this series, he is not going to start changing the fates of characters solely to be different to the show. If he comes up with an idea which is better and also doesn't contradict previous foreshadowing, he'll certainly do it (and already has, from the sound of it), but he's not going to change things just to be different to the show for difference's sake.  There is really no reason whatsoever to do that.

I disagree.  It would be more of an emotional response than a logical reason.  But both have arguments for and against.  And GRRM wouldn't be the first person to react this way.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

I disagree.  It would be more of an emotional response than a logical reason.  But both have arguments for and against.  And GRRM wouldn't be the first person to react this way.

I think there is no doubt Martin is an emotional personal and is reacting to what the show is doing. You only have to read the little snippets he releases about the show, and see the chapters he releases for TWOW that he is reacting, and it can easily be interpreted quite negatively. Clearly his ego is wrapped up in the world he has created and the adulation he receives from it. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine that he is thinking about his whole legacy and seeing what the show is doing and is panicking a little. 

[Ser Biscuit]

8 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I think you forgot Val, and Mance's child in your long list. Some will disagree about how much important Val is. But she is dear to me. And if Jon is ever king, she will be his queen.

True, added them both. ITA about Val. She knows they are an item judging by her teasingly wearing all white in her return back from the Tormund meeting. She has a huge role to play in uniting the North with Jon, both as an ambassador and as his bride. It's going to take Jon merging with Ghost and picking up Ghosts' sixth sense before he realizes it, but he will.

[Winter's Cold]

44 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think there is no doubt Martin is an emotional personal and is reacting to what the show is doing. You only have to read the little snippets he releases about the show, and see the chapters he releases for TWOW that he is reacting, and it can easily be interpreted quite negatively. Clearly his ego is wrapped up in the world he has created and the adulation he receives from it. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine that he is thinking about his whole legacy and seeing what the show is doing and is panicking a little. 

Yeah the Alayne chapter before Season 5 aired and the Arianne chapter after Season 6 episode 1 were definitely reactions. Martin has been more of a celebrity than an author these past five years and now he'll have to face the consequences of the show spoiling his ending. 

[mormont]

3 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Original intention - Tell the entire story using the POV characters from AGOT.  Scrapped.

But not, we note, in reaction to the show or in some attempt to prove something to someone in some way. Because in writing the books, it simply didn't work.

To quote myself:

Quote

I'm not saying the show doesn't affect his writing at all - everything affects a writer, that's part of the job - but he's not going to avoid show similarities out of some desperate desire to appear unique.

So I'm afraid you're beating up a straw man here. Nobody ever said GRRM doesn't change things at all. I've said he won't do so because, for some reason, he's desperate for his books to appear different from the show. Nobody has presented a scrap of evidence that he feels this way. Which brings me to:

46 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think there is no doubt Martin is an emotional personal and is reacting to what the show is doing. You only have to read the little snippets he releases about the show, and see the chapters he releases for TWOW that he is reacting, and it can easily be interpreted quite negatively. Clearly his ego is wrapped up in the world he has created and the adulation he receives from it. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine that he is thinking about his whole legacy and seeing what the show is doing and is panicking a little. 

I think there is no doubt that all of this is people projecting their own feelings onto GRRM. The key words there are 'it can be interpreted'. If you're saying that, you've already admitted that you're inserting your own perspective instead of dealing in facts.

Further, the notion that in some way GRRM's legacy will in some way be diminished if the books and the series are too similar is a giant leap with nothing behind it. Why would it be?

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

I disagree.  It would be more of an emotional response than a logical reason.  But both have arguments for and against.  And GRRM wouldn't be the first person to react this way.

Lots of people guessed Aegon VI survived the Sack of King's Landing as early as 1998, and George was well aware of that. He didn't change the books. People have been guessing R+L=J since 1996, and he's not appeared to change things since then. People guessed that Brienne was descended from Dunk, and that was confirmed.

The notion that George will change the story because people have either guessed or even know what's coming up is not supported by precedent. Changing the ending of ASoIaF, the ending which has been foreshadowed for 20 years in print and 25 years in the author's work, is something which is simply not going to happen, based on GRRM's prior behaviour to this time.

[TheKitttenGuard]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

I think there is no doubt that all of this is people projecting their own feelings onto GRRM. The key words there are 'it can be interpreted'. If you're saying that, you've already admitted that you're inserting your own perspective instead of dealing in facts.

Further, the notion that in some way GRRM's legacy will in some way be diminished if the books and the series are too similar is a giant leap with nothing behind it. Why would it be?

 

Too many people on all sides read too much in many things that either Martin or the showrunners say or do.

 

[lancerman]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

 

I think there is no doubt that all of this is people projecting their own feelings onto GRRM. The key words there are 'it can be interpreted'. If you're saying that, you've already admitted that you're inserting your own perspective instead of dealing in facts.

Further, the notion that in some way GRRM's legacy will in some way be diminished if the books and the series are too similar is a giant leap with nothing behind it. Why would it be?

It's a such a double edged sword. So if the series and the show are too similar it diminishes his legacy, but if he undermines and compromises 20 years of work merely to separate from the show he isn't? Seems a bit far fetched, especially if that becomes public knowledge.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

 

I think there is no doubt that all of this is people projecting their own feelings onto GRRM. The key words there are 'it can be interpreted'. If you're saying that, you've already admitted that you're inserting your own perspective instead of dealing in facts.

Further, the notion that in some way GRRM's legacy will in some way be diminished if the books and the series are too similar is a giant leap with nothing behind it. Why would it be?

I don't know about projecting, but its perfectly natural we all bring our own interpretations to things. Having said that, its hard to look at the timings of Martins released chapters and his comments and not think he's trying to say something with them. I think he seems to be boiling under with the pressure that the shows are jumping ahead of him. 

Sure theres a bunch of stuff in the books that will play out differently, but it can't be a good feeling knowing that the show is going to tell the ending to his books before he does.

[HairGrowsBack]

5 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I don't know about projecting, but its perfectly natural we all bring our own interpretations to things. Having said that, its hard to look at the timings of Martins released chapters and his comments and not think he's trying to say something with them. I think he seems to be boiling under with the pressure that the shows are jumping ahead of him. 

Sure theres a bunch of stuff in the books that will play out differently, but it can't be a good feeling knowing that the show is going to tell the ending to his books before he does.

While you can say that about the release of Mercy, it just simply isn't true for Alayne, Arianne and Aeron, since any chance of these events happening in the show has been annihilated : Sansa left the Vale and married Ramsay, and neither Arianne nor Aeron exist (not to mention the Dorne and IB storylines have obviously played out in a complete different fashion).

I would argue that most of the chapters released was his way of reaffirming the distance between the show and the books, and not the fear of the show revealing storylines outcomes, since 3/4 of them don't exist per se in the show.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

2 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

While you can say that about the release of Mercy, it just simply isn't true for Alayne, Arianne and Aeron, since any chance of these events happening in the show has been annihilated : Sansa left the Vale and married Ramsay, and neither Arianne nor Aeron exist (not to mention the Dorne and IB storylines have obviously played out in a complete different fashion).

I would argue that most of the chapters released was his way of reaffirming the distance between the show and the books, and not the fear of the show revealing storylines outcomes, since 3/4 of them don't exist per se in the show.

Yes I agree, he is trying to distance himself from the show , to illustrate that he's doing something different. But that just shows that he's worried about the show revealing some of his most important plot points, and is trying to offer up the stuff that isn't in the show

[thehandwipes]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

Further, the notion that in some way GRRM's legacy will in some way be diminished if the books and the series are too similar is a giant leap with nothing behind it. Why would it be?

Because the show is poorly written garbage with nonsensical plots with no deeper meaning or themes full of dull characters lacking any humanity that act irrationally in the furtherance of plot.

I know that wasn't your point, but still.

13 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I don't know about projecting, but its perfectly natural we all bring our own interpretations to things. Having said that, its hard to look at the timings of Martins released chapters and his comments and not think he's trying to say something with them. I think he seems to be boiling under with the pressure that the shows are jumping ahead of him. 

I think the release of the Alayne and Aeron chapters were pretty clearly meant to reassure book readers that the books and show are heading down different paths.  Something that both GRRM and D&D have said to be true.  I'm sure GRRM is disappointed with the direction of the show, it would be hard not to be, but its not his place to say so.  Still, the show has brought so many new fans to his work that it seems hard to believe his boiling with anger over it. 

[HairGrowsBack]

1 minute ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yes I agree, he is trying to distance himself from the show , to illustrate that he's doing something different. But that just shows that he's worried about the show revealing some of his most important plot points, and is trying to offer up the stuff that isn't in the show

He's probably worried about plot points up to a certain extent, I agree, although I think the show being such a different beast should comfort him somewhat in what he's doing, since the meat of the books remains untouched. That said, there is no way to know for sure how he feels about the issue ; for all I know, he might feel the opposite and suffers from greater distress, seeing his work so distorted, and thus feeling pressured further into writing. Now that I think about his saying the story is his baby, the latter might be more likely.