How rich are the Starks pre series

[Lord Giggles]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And there will be certainly generous and open-handed lords who grant a man they make a knight also some horses, etc. but it would depend on the arrangement you have with your liege how he pays you. And landed knights most likely cannot expect any payment from their lords at all considering that they are holding their lands in the name of their liege and are expected to fight when he calls on their help.

Westeros doesn't have real standing armies aside from households guards and City Watches (if you want to call them such). Knights insofar as they are active warriors are cavalry, but there aren't all that many of them and they are, in fact, not really paid and well trained sellswords/soldiers.

Actually, knights were only obliged to serve there liege for a certain number of days a year. In medieval England it was 40. In Westeros it's probably more given the distances involved but none the less there's a limit to how long they'll serve for free. Once that limit is up, their liege is obliged to pay them a certain sum each day they stay. For foot it was normally 2d. per day, 12d. for cavalry. 

As to Westerosi armies being levies, I've been through this here: 

I won't repeat all the arguments I made there but suffice to say, the Westerosi infantry aren't yokels who've just had a spear shoved into their hand. 

[Jeeves]

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 2:32 PM, Tarellen said:

Okay so the stark are the rulers of the north but there not the richest family that honor going to the mandrelys. They have a big castle but it has a derelict tower. There personal land holdings seem to be small with there not being many outright Stark men. They have only one known castle. There land is concentrated around winter fell. So how rich are the Starks?

Not very.  They rank near the bottom of the "great" houses in terms of wealth.  "Lesser" houses like the Freys have more wealth than the Starks.  Robert's visit alone was a major cause of financial concern for Ned.

[Tarellen]

On June 4, 2016 at 11:12 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Their net value would be incredibly high. Just outside the top 5 of the Houses of Westeros. All the Overlords of Westeros are going to be in the top 10 when it comes to Net worth.

When it comes to being cash rich they would certainly rank outside of the top 10 in Westeros, maybe just scraping in the top 20.

Looking at their vassals once you get passed the Manderlys, Dustins it is hard to see where they would be gathering much taxes.

So you think the only way for a lord to get cash is from towns? 

 

On June 4, 2016 at 0:22 PM, Nyrhex said:

Bottom of the top 10 in Westeros (or of top ~20 if you split some branches). Bottom of top 100 if we add wealthy merchant families from the near east. We lack enough info to tell about the far east.

 

And your evidence for this is?

 

On June 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM, redtree said:

Great-ish net but low liquid, i think. I'm using the 1% standard here so when i said low doesn't mean they are poor, just below the par of the top 10 house in Westeros.
Their networth are mostly in land but IMO i don't see the point of having massive but not very cultivable land and sparse population with the bonus of harsh winter every few years and the possiblity of snow during summer which mean your crops will freeze and well, hunger. 

Most real life medival aristocract were constantly short of cash even the rich ones.

 

On June 4, 2016 at 1:22 PM, John Doe said:

Five?

RIcher houses should include the Manderlys, Lannisters, Hightowers, Redwynes, Graftons, Baratheons, Tullys, Leffords, Tyrells, maybe Freys, so the Starks are at best at the bottom of the top ten houses of Westeros alone. Across the Narrow Sea I'm sure you'll find richer families, Mopatis for one. 

Why grafton Lefford and Tully. The grafton don't have complet control of gulltown and the Tully have a shaky power base from not being kings

 

On June 4, 2016 at 1:32 PM, John Doe said:

If land mass equaled wealth Putin would be the richest guy on earth. 

Putin doesn't own his country the Starks do

[Lord Giggles]

7 minutes ago, Heavy D said:

Not very.  They rank near the bottom of the "great" houses in terms of wealth.  "Lesser" houses like the Freys have more wealth than the Starks.  Robert's visit alone was a major cause of financial concern for Ned.

A King's visit is always a concern. First you need to find lodging for them suitable to their social standing, then lodging for their retinue who are going to be in the low hundreds at least. Then you need to find food for them and all their several hundred courtiers and retainers and you can't just fob them off with bread and ale. It's going to need to be the finest meats and wines you can buy and lots of them. Did I mention the number of horses you're going to need to find stable space and feed for? Or the entertainment you'll need to buy(and by entertainment we don't mean just a small group of jesters you bought on the cheap. We're talking things like tournaments here)? The costs all add up.

[Lord Varys]

58 minutes ago, Lord Giggles said:

Actually, knights were only obliged to serve there liege for a certain number of days a year. In medieval England it was 40. In Westeros it's probably more given the distances involved but none the less there's a limit to how long they'll serve for free. Once that limit is up, their liege is obliged to pay them a certain sum each day they stay. For foot it was normally 2d. per day, 12d. for cavalry. 

As to Westerosi armies being levies, I've been through this here: 

I won't repeat all the arguments I made there but suffice to say, the Westerosi infantry aren't yokels who've just had a spear shoved into their hand. 

That might have been so in medieval England but it doesn't seem to be the case in Westeros. And in Westeros there is a difference between a landed knight and a household knight. The former actually holds lands and thus there is a liege-vassal relationship of some sort whereas the latter is just a guy with a sword and a horse in service of his lord. That is pretty much what Ser Kevan is, actually. He does not hold any land.

There might be a portion of footmen who are properly trained and have experience but the majority is not. We see this in TSS and there are SSMs about that, too. What I remember of this sort is George talking about Rhaegar's army at the Trident being bigger but consisting of fresh troops which weren't well-trained.

Not to mention that Septon Meribald's broken men speech also makes it clear that the common man doesn't necessarily have good armor or training. Richer lords may provide their men with good equipment because they can but the poorer lords cannot do that.

53 minutes ago, Lord Giggles said:

A King's visit is always a concern. First you need to find lodging for them suitable to their social standing, then lodging for their retinue who are going to be in the low hundreds at least. Then you need to find food for them and all their several hundred courtiers and retainers and you can't just fob them off with bread and ale. It's going to need to be the finest meats and wines you can buy and lots of them. Did I mention the number of horses you're going to need to find stable space and feed for? Or the entertainment you'll need to buy(and by entertainment we don't mean just a small group of jesters you bought on the cheap. We're talking things like tournaments here)? The costs all add up.

I've discussed that above. Robert's royal visit is a financial issue for the Starks (and presumably Raymun Darry, too, I'm sure; not to mention Renly later visiting Lord Caswell). But there is no similar sign of Aerys II's royal visits to Casterly Rock and Lannisport in the late 260s and for the tourney in honor of the birth of Prince Viserys to causing any sort of financial problems for the Lannisters. Such is their world. The truly rich houses in Westeros can entertain the king in a kingly fashion (tourney, entertainments, singers, mummers, balls, feasts, etc.) without facing any difficulty whatsoever.

And the Crown/Dragonstone was also rich in the same way under Aerys II because Rhaegar was apparently to finance the tourney of Harrenhal without facing any problems we know of.

Considering this it is pretty clear that the Starks are not playing in the same league as the really wealthy people. I mean, even Aerys apparently got jealous when Tywin threw all the splendor and the richest of the West into his face in that tourney. And he was actually a pretty wealthy king.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Please, you've spent enough time in the forum to know E-Ro's thread. You should know better than to take "bugger me up the arse for a penny and call me a warrior" Merribald seriously.

 

Robert's visit wasn't a financial problem for the Starks either. They needed more food and stuff than expected for this time of the year, so they had to reshuffle their plans a bit. That's it. Not some onerous expense.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

I mostly agree with the ones who said they are wealthy 

 

However, it still bugs me were did they stash their money. And who got it after they were whipped out.

 

The same as renlys rents. Stannis got all renlys assests at one point but yet he remains as poor as always.

 

There are not warchests in the plot it seams.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 minutes ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

The same as renlys rents. Stannis got all renlys assests at one point but yet he remains as poor as always.

I imagine most of Renly's liquid cash went with him to the Reach and was left at Bitterbridge when he went to face Stannis.

Though I don't really think Renly was that (liquid) rich. Robert would have burned through a lot of their money for the war and Renly did not exactly seem to be fiscal with his spending.

[Tarellen]

On June 4, 2016 at 1:47 PM, redtree said:

I think Tully was richer than Arryn, they don't have city but they have multiple towns with far larger arable land. Arryn is higher prestige-wise though

Yeah but they don't have much of powerbase in the riverlands compared to the Arron's in the vale

 

On June 4, 2016 at 2:21 PM, Lord Giggles said:

I'd rate the wealthiest houses of Westeros like this:

1. Lannisters

2. Tyrells 

3. Tullys

4. Arryns

5. Martells

6. Baratheons

7. Starks

8. The Crown be it Targs or Baratheons of KL.

9. Greyjoys

While the Starks are near the bottom, they aren't the poorest by any stretch of the imagination. In addition to the money they get from selling excess agricultural produce from their own demesne lands(assuming they don't just rent them out for hard cash to tenants or in exchange for military service), they'll be getting a portion of the tolls imposed on trade passing in and out of White Harbor and through Moat Cailin. They also will most likely get a decent amount of money from selling furs and timber+charcoal to the south which, with the exception of the Stormlands, doesn't seem to have too many large forests left. 

How are the bartheons of storms end and the Martell richer then them?

 

On June 4, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Nevets said:

Are we talking about governmental assets or personal wealth?  In terms of assets he can draw on if necessary, the Starks are in good shape, but I would hardly consider them to be particularly wealthy by Westeros standards.   They were able to host the King and his court without borrowing or ruining their finances, but it is clear that it put a good dent in their funds.  I would put them at the bottom of major houses in terms of personal wealth.  They are probably well below even many secondary houses in the South, for example.  That still puts them in the top 1 % of Westeros.  

Where does it say that hosting the king put a crimp on there finances?

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Robert's visit wasn't a financial problem for the Starks either. They needed more food and stuff than expected for this time of the year, so they had to reshuffle their plans a bit. That's it. Not some onerous expense.

Luwin talks about the cost of the royal visit. It seems to have affected the treasury of the Starks in a relevant degree. It is not specified or explicitly restricted to food stuff. 

As to the other stuff: It is not just Meribald, it is also the weapons, armor, and training the Osgrey levies get in TSS. Unless we assume those are uncharacteristically pitiful people there is no reason to believe that people coming from this or that hovel in the North wouldn't be off as worse in a real war, or even worser still.

There would be certainly be people in the service of richer/more caring lords but nobody is doubting that. But the rank and file of the 'soldiers' in those wars aren't soldiers at all. That is also the reason why the Golden Company is actually a severe threat to its enemies. Those are 10,000 experienced professional sellswords. If you think about that the victory at the Wendwater Bridge might actually have been quite an accomplishment. Bittersteel and Daemon III might not have much Westerosi support but they would still have had the Golden Company. The problem there seems to have been that Aegon V chose the battleground and successfully crushed them.

17 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I imagine most of Renly's liquid cash went with him to the Reach and was left at Bitterbridge when he went to face Stannis.

Though I don't really think Renly was that (liquid) rich. Robert would have burned through a lot of their money for the war and Renly did not exactly seem to be fiscal with his spending.

Renly certainly spends a lot of money and there is little reason to assume that he emptied his treasury before he went to Highgarden. If he even went to Storm's End before going there. Could be, but we don't know anything about his movements.

In any case, Stannis should have captured some assets at Storm's End and should then have sent them to Dragonstone via ship, most likely on the same ship he dispatched Melisandre back home. So this might actually be a plot hole. Stannis would have grabbed any cash he could take to finally be able to pay Saan and the others that were pestering him.

[Lychnidos]

A question, do we have any information on the actual size of Winterfell?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Luwin talks about the cost of the royal visit. It seems to have affected the treasury of the Starks in a relevant degree. It is not specified or explicitly restricted to food stuff. 

As to the other stuff: It is not just Meribald, it is also the weapons, armor, and training the Osgrey levies get in TSS. Unless we assume those are uncharacteristically pitiful people there is no reason to believe that people coming from this or that hovel in the North wouldn't be off as worse in a real war, or even worser still.

Of course bills need to be paid. Even Scrooge McDuck got to pay them, regardless of his money.

Yes, those are indeed uncharacteristically pitiful people. Please reread every single account of any battle in the entire series and show someone as badly equipped and trained as them.

Or simply read Come Into My Castle: The ways of warfare in Westeros, the most conclusive thread upon that topic ever. Something I expected you to have done already.

[Ser Creighton]

Economic center of the north was White Harbor, wealthy enough to build a fleet, take in and feed refugees and keep their vaults full of silver. Starks primary source of income appears to be taxes. Nothing really seems out of the ordinary, clearly not broke, they were on the conservative side of things, and Robb could afford to go to war and not much was said about money. Probably richer than most but not as rich as some. Lannister, Tully, Hightower, were the big money families. Probably nearly as wealthy as the Manderly's similar to the Tully's and the Hightowers but on a lesser scale.

Post series, not so much money. Probably didn't keep everything in one place though, treasury of Winterfell, and probably the vaults of White Harbor. Most of the trade would of occurred there, the taxes on trade would of been collected there. Imports paid for there. Then the Starks probably would of pulled from the vaults their to keep their treasury stocked.

If of course there is any logic to it.

[Lord Varys]

@Bright Blue Eyes

What can I say? I think George has no intention to convey to us a false meaning of his view on war (in his invented fantasy world) via Septon Meribald which we can only decode or uncover if we meticulously collect and compare many/all instances in which battles and armies in the books are described.

We do know that most of the drafted men have to be untrained peasants, basically, because that's what we are told. There are no professional soldiers in Westeros because we never see a standing army being mentioned. There are guardsmen, household knights, and men-at-arms. That's it. In addition you have freeriders, hedge knights, and sellswords.

And I'm not deluding myself into believing those men make the bulk of the men of each army. Not even the bulk of Tywin's army - who has the coin to feed, train, and maintain more 'professional soldiers' than anybody else in Westeros.

The professionalism of the properly trained, armored minority of the trained and experienced is, of course, crucial in winning a battle, defeating the enemy, and keeping the rabble in line. Men like Jacelyn Bywater have a lot to do with this kind of thing.

Have you forgotten the difference between the privileged upbringing of a boy like Jon Snow in comparison to the average common boy? Those boys do not learn how to fight properly, good steel is restricted to castle (the talk about castle-forged steel isn't a coincidence) and only people living in castles (which should be the minority) should have access to this kind of stuff.

I'm not saying any common footman is in such a worse position as Osgrey's pitiful lot was, but this is a trend. Nothing suggests that the folk of Hog's Mire or Seven Streams are in much better position in a situation in which their lords call upon them to fight for them.

We don't see much of the smallfolk, true, but care take a look at the Poor Fellows, an actual 'army of the people'. They have axes and ugly robes, basically.

[John Doe]

4 hours ago, Tarellen said:

So you think the only way for a lord to get cash is from towns? 

 

And your evidence for this is?

 

Most real life medival aristocract were constantly short of cash even the rich ones.

 

Why grafton Lefford and Tully. The grafton don't have complet control of gulltown and the Tully have a shaky power base from not being kings

Tullys are LPS of one of the most fertile regions of Westeros, they have a similar population to the Norht and there's more trade. Riverrun itself is near a trade route even, Winterfell isn't. 

Graftons directly control the fourth largest city of the seven kingdoms, which means lots of taxes and trade. That might not be enough to be above the Starks, but it isn't out of the question. 

Lefford again is close to a trade route and they have gold mines as well, something the Starks don't have. 

 

[MinotaurWarrior]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

There is no farmland described

- outside Winterfell where you would expect it.

- anywhere alongside the Kingsroad in the North where there should be fields and farms to support, well, the king or the great lords when they were doing a progress. The early Targaryen kings did this kind of thing.

- in the Barrowlands region Ned and Robert rode through in AGoT.

- the lands Bran and the Reeds cross on their way to the Wall.

The farmland that is actually described that I remember off the top of my head is outside Deepwood Motte in ADwD, and that is characterized by the fact that the crops there died because the Glovers couldn't get the harvest due to a lack of farmhands.

Harvests are mentioned for the Karstarks (no successful harvests after the War of the Five Kings began due to a lack of men) and Umbers but we don't know what sort of crops they were growing.

Compare that to the description of the Field of Fire in TWoIaF. The entire battle essentially took place in a huge field full of wheat. There seems to be nothing of this sort in the North

This is actually hugely interesting to me. Consider that, in some sense, the richest single individual we've met in the series so far was probably Khal Drogo with his 40,000 strong personal army, vast baggage train, Pentoshi palace, personal jewelry, and slaves. Obviously, Ned hasn't been collecting tribute from all over Essos - he's clearly not in league with the most powerful Khal of the dothraki sea. But it should remind us that pastoralists can do quite well for themselves. 

What if Wintertown is the Vaes Dothrak of northerners who follow the great aurochs herds of the cold waste? What if the average northerner isn't a peasant breaking their back trying to get seeds to grow from frozen earth, but rather a cowherd who follows massive wild horned beasts as they journey from pasture to pasture, venturing into town only when the grazing land becomes intolerably cold, or to sell hides, horns, and excess meat?

This would likely mean that the average Northerner has much more personal wealth than a southerner (a family herd v.s. whatever excess from the harvest your lord let's you keep, and what little you're able to make from cottage industry) and lives a much more rugged, isolated, "frontier" style life.

Now, there's no real direct evidence for this being the majority occupation of the North, but neither is there much evidence for farming in Ned's demense, and it makes more sense for all of the herds to have been off screen than for all of the farms to have been beyond the horizon of the kingsroad.

 

Also, this really sheds almost no light on the household wealth of the Starks. Could be that these pastoralists evade almost all taxes by just evading the tax collectors. Could be Eddard caught half of each slaughter. Could be aurochs are a precious delicacy, could be they're cheap filler at all the feasts we've seen them in. This is really just me brainstorming a solution to the question of northern land use. 

[Lord Varys]

@MinotaurWarrior

I'm with you that there is a decent chance that some people in the North might be nomads or semi-nomads, tending vast flocks of sheeps, goats, and other animals. Probably not cattle because that's not mentioned as living up there (although we know that the Butterwells down in the Riverlands grew rich on cows).

I also imagine the Ryswells controlling vast empty lands in those Rills of their where the horses they breed can graze and fend more or less unmolested in a semi-wild state. Could be bogus, of course, but we don't have any information on them.

The Dothraki essentially seem to be constantly living off the lands they cross, so there is little reason to assume that horses in Westeros cannot live off grass alone, by the way. There is no indication that the Dothraki feed their horses any special food nor seems it likely that they have any opportunity to get themselves such foods considering that they are constantly on the move.

[MinotaurWarrior]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@MinotaurWarriorI'm with you that there is a decent chance that some people in the North might be nomads or semi-nomads, tending vast flocks of sheeps, goats, and other animals. Probably not cattle because that's not mentioned as living up there (although we know that the Butterwells down in the Riverlands grew rich on cows).

I'm not talking about normal cattle but rather proper wild aurochs, which several characters eat throughout the series, and yet have no known source. It seems very unlikely that they come from below the neck, given that most of the flatlands have been converted to farms, and, generally speaking, the further north you go in westeros, the more extinct european fauna you encounter (woolly rhinoceros, I'm looking at you). Real aurochs generally got bigger the further north you went, thriving in cold climates and biomes somewhat similar to those of the North. Still, could just as easily be the case that aurochs meat all comes from Skagos or royal game preserves or even essos. It would just neatly wrap up two mysteries (the source of the aurochs meat and the use of the non-forested Stark lands)

Also, is there ever any evidence of the woods being well-managed? Not just the wolfswood, but any? I know the haunted forest is chopped down regularly, but we don't even know if that lumber is sold. There's a big difference in the value of a felled piece of gnarly knotted wild wood, and, say, a strategically coppiced birch tree.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

@Lord Varys

Did you read the thread I linked? Because your concerns are all adressed therein. There is no army anywhere like you propose. It doesn't exist. The Sparrows are no army either, just a mob.

Please remember what Septon Merribald actually told us: He and his friends had a total of one stolen kitchen knife between them. How does that relate to the gleaming mail or plate of any army ever shown to us?

They were camp followers. Dumb boys running away from home to find glory and loot in war, and being forced to sell their cherry for food before the week was out. Of course he spins his tale a bit.

[Lord Varys]

@MinotaurWarrior

Hm. Considering that aurochs isn't mentioned all that often there could be some left in some remote places south of the Neck, too. If not, then the Southrons buying the meat from the Northmen could make sense. But there are remote places even in the South - Crackclaw Point, the Rainwood, the Kingswood, some valleys and dells in the West, and so on.

Just chanced upon a passage mentioning aurochs in the Riverlands as prey of Nymeria's. Check AFfC.

@Bright Blue Eyes

You are working under the assumption that a POV describing a scene involving a lot of soldiers gives you a full and complete picture of all the people there. Smallfolk is seldom described or mentioned when the people are focused on the nobility (almost exclusively the own peer group of the POVs). I'm not saying all of the footmen don't have mail or good weapons. I'm saying the 'silent/invisible majority' aren't well-equipped, especially in all those huge armies.

Meribald himself possibly being just a camp follower doesn't change anything. He tells a general story of broken men, and he clearly does talk about what he has seen and heard. Even if he and his brothers and buddies weren't actually conscripted men, how does this invalidate his story about the people who are?

Neither Brienne, nor Hyle or Pod are correcting him when he describes what weapons, armor, and clothing the average commoner drafted to war has. They would do that if they knew he was talking shit. After all, unlike we, these people actually live in Westeros and actually did march to war in huge armies. They would have seen how the drafted commoners looked like, and they would have defended their noble peers if Meribald was misconstruing the noble way in which the great lords of Westeros fought their battles. If every commoner got himself his shiny armor and weaponry it would have been mentioned.

I really don't see any reason why I should read this story in a way in which Meribald should want to promote himself from camp follower to soldier forty years after the fact. He doesn't want to tell anybody his war stories or relish in his past glory. He tells Pod and the others why war sucks, basically, and in what role he reached that conclusion is pretty much irrelevant. I see no reason to doubt his description of 'the average commoner in war'. Especially because he is one of the few people who care about the smallfolk. None of the POVs do, really.