How rich are the Starks pre series

[Señor de la Tormenta]

3 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I imagine most of Renly's liquid cash went with him to the Reach and was left at Bitterbridge when he went to face Stannis.

Though I don't really think Renly was that (liquid) rich. Robert would have burned through a lot of their money for the war and Renly did not exactly seem to be fiscal with his spending.

You are probably right. But cressen points Renlys rents as one of the biggest difference with Stannis. So he was rich, at some degree.

 

Probably he had big spendings, and might had been in as much debt as robert.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

On 5/6/2016 at 0:06 AM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

1 Lannisters

2 Tyrells

3 Tullys

4 Arryns

5 Baratheons of Storm's End

6 Martells

6 Starks

7 Greyjoys

8 Baratheons of Dragonstone

hightowers are probably richer than many of the list. Redwynes probably to. 

[direpupy]

17 hours ago, redtree said:

I read that, amount of farmland does not equal amount of people who work on it especially when the farmland is cold. Another book by Oxford mentioned that there are many references to abandoned land in Scotland. Are those farmland populated ? Just like the North who has a lot of farmland yet the population is sparse. Somehow i question someone who give an estimation with 100% margin range, 5-10% is maybe, 100% margin range is not. That kind of margin of error will not be acceptable as a proof in any kind of thesis.  

An official org of UK and Ireland genealogy site mentioned that Scotland had reached 800k in 1600, 300 years after most battles i cited,  and just reached 1m in 1700. 

The reason you read about abandoned farmland is the fact that about half the population died in 1337 of the Black Death that's why it dropped to 500.000 but by looking at how much farmland was abandoned and then looking at how many people lived on the farmland that was still being used they estimated that there was a peak of 1million before 1337.

so i am sorry but if you don,t believe that then that's your problem but your figure of 380K was wrong, no and if or buts about it, because even after 1337 there was a population of about 500K

[Jaak]

14 hours ago, Tarellen said:

Yeah but they don't have much of powerbase in the riverlands compared to the Arron's in the vale

 

How are the bartheons of storms end and the Martell richer then them?

I'd put Martells above Stormlands, too.

My logic is as follows:

In terms of the mobilizable population, North, Riverlands, Vale and Stormlands are roughly equal. All 4 are mentioned as about 20 000 soldiers.

Dorne is less - Doran expressly states it's the smallest of 7 Kingdoms - but probably not by a large margin.

Now, there are 2 questions: what is the total tax revenue of each of the 3 Kingdoms, and how is it divided between 1) the local lords 2) the Lord Paramount and 3) Iron Throne.

For Dorne, we are expressly told that their special deal with Iron Throne allows them a lower tax burden, although they do pay some. In contrast, at North, we hear that the tax collectors at White Harbour were loyal to Iron Throne and held taxes for them.

Therefore, we can expect that in Dorne, the share of Iron Throne is less than in any of the other 7 - leaving a bigger share for Martells.

Now about the share of Lord Paramount: at Sunspear, Arianne lists a number of officials. Treasurer Alyse Ladybright and "bailiffs" who report to her. "Justiciars" - plural. Some others.

No such figures at Winterfell.

The rudimentary state of Winterfell central government suggests that in peacetime, Starks leave Manderlies and the other lords mostly to run themselves, and collect little of the money that the lords have. In contrast to Martells. Who therefore are richer than Starks... and probably Tullies and Arryns either.

[House Cambodia]

But I think like the north, Dorna has mostly barren land (desert) and a low population. You've got to look to the Reach and then the Riverlands for the most fertile soil.

[TheSTARKempire]

I have seen this type of threads many times and most of them converged to the same situation: the critics of the north come out under the guise of being knowledgeable and stubbornly paint the North as if it is the weakest region of westeros. Thanks goodness that we have the FreeNorthManReborn. If you are so desperate to make the north look nothing more than a land of savage and poor people ruled from a seemingly ruined castle, please try to make more sound arguments than repeatedly citing 'the ruined tower' and 'the unmanned moat cailin'. It get really boring to read those posts. 

If the Starks has no use for that broken tower, why would they repair it? Winterfell is said to be very huge and the northern culture is not concerned about showing off your flashiest and the most beautiful castle. Ned built a beautiful sept for Catelyn Stark. one chose to ignore this fact while repeatedly saying broken tower lends much credence to the starks being in a poor financial state. really? seriously?? 

Moat Cailin could have been built before the Reeds become stout and loyal bannerman of the Stark. After the neck became a loyal region of the North, the Starks has no reason to keep it manning. Even crossing the whole stretch of Neck is already deadly with many man-eating lizards and they can count on the inhabitants of the neck to delay the advancing army while the northern army marches south and wait at the moat cailin. it is a much better strategy than constantly having a garrison there.  

 

[Lord Giggles]

On 6/6/2016 at 9:37 PM, Lord Varys said:

That might have been so in medieval England but it doesn't seem to be the case in Westeros. And in Westeros there is a difference between a landed knight and a household knight. The former actually holds lands and thus there is a liege-vassal relationship of some sort whereas the latter is just a guy with a sword and a horse in service of his lord. That is pretty much what Ser Kevan is, actually. He does not hold any land.

There might be a portion of footmen who are properly trained and have experience but the majority is not. We see this in TSS and there are SSMs about that, too. What I remember of this sort is George talking about Rhaegar's army at the Trident being bigger but consisting of fresh troops which weren't well-trained.

Not to mention that Septon Meribald's broken men speech also makes it clear that the common man doesn't necessarily have good armor or training. Richer lords may provide their men with good equipment because they can but the poorer lords cannot do that.

Actually Catelyn says, when she observes the army Robb has mustered, that his men will stay but not forever, which would seem to indicate that there was some kind of limit to the amount of time lords could call on their vassals to provide free military service. Now, as I said, it's likely longer in Westeros due to the the distances involved as if it was just 40 days then armies from the North wouldn't even be able to muster before they started to lose men. A better number may be something like 120 days, which would give them time to get down to the Neck, meaning they could be called up for defensive campaigns but an offensive campaign into another kingdom would be a far more costly undertaking, so there's probably some agreement than in an offensive war, the liege has to pay for his vassals keep or some such thing. 

 

From what we've seen, that portion of the footmen encompasses all of them. The Frey levies have chainmail and pikes, the Northerners too. Both the Starks and Lannisters are mentioned as using men-at-arms, who would be armoured in, even if not full plate, a brigandine and chainmail at least. Lords aren't going to waste that kind of gear on men who don't know how to use it and they probably don't have the money to buy it for the kinds of numbers we're talking about. The logical conclusion? These men bought it themselves. That means they're more likely to be middle class land small(relatively) scale landowners given land by their liege in exchange for military service. Either that or they're supplied by the entire village in order to turn out men with a good level of gear so a village of 800 people may only provide 20 men. 

On 6/6/2016 at 11:24 PM, Tarellen said:

How are the bartheons of storms end and the Martell richer then them?

Both the Martells and the Baratheons are able to trade with Essos in addition to their usual incomes. 

On 6/7/2016 at 2:40 AM, Lord Varys said:

@MinotaurWarrior

Hm. Considering that aurochs isn't mentioned all that often there could be some left in some remote places south of the Neck, too. If not, then the Southrons buying the meat from the Northmen could make sense. But there are remote places even in the South - Crackclaw Point, the Rainwood, the Kingswood, some valleys and dells in the West, and so on.

Just chanced upon a passage mentioning aurochs in the Riverlands as prey of Nymeria's. Check AFfC.

@Bright Blue Eyes

You are working under the assumption that a POV describing a scene involving a lot of soldiers gives you a full and complete picture of all the people there. Smallfolk is seldom described or mentioned when the people are focused on the nobility (almost exclusively the own peer group of the POVs). I'm not saying all of the footmen don't have mail or good weapons. I'm saying the 'silent/invisible majority' aren't well-equipped, especially in all those huge armies.

Meribald himself possibly being just a camp follower doesn't change anything. He tells a general story of broken men, and he clearly does talk about what he has seen and heard. Even if he and his brothers and buddies weren't actually conscripted men, how does this invalidate his story about the people who are?

Neither Brienne, nor Hyle or Pod are correcting him when he describes what weapons, armor, and clothing the average commoner drafted to war has. They would do that if they knew he was talking shit. After all, unlike we, these people actually live in Westeros and actually did march to war in huge armies. They would have seen how the drafted commoners looked like, and they would have defended their noble peers if Meribald was misconstruing the noble way in which the great lords of Westeros fought their battles. If every commoner got himself his shiny armor and weaponry it would have been mentioned.

I really don't see any reason why I should read this story in a way in which Meribald should want to promote himself from camp follower to soldier forty years after the fact. He doesn't want to tell anybody his war stories or relish in his past glory. He tells Pod and the others why war sucks, basically, and in what role he reached that conclusion is pretty much irrelevant. I see no reason to doubt his description of 'the average commoner in war'. Especially because he is one of the few people who care about the smallfolk. None of the POVs do, really.

So you're saying that the Frey's provided more than 4000 foot? That's impressive for any house. All of those 4000 foot are said to be armed with chain mail and pikes. We see similar levels of equipment amongst the Karstarks who Tyrion fights at the Greenfork. 

And that's because the men who make up the infantry of Westerosi armies probably aren't commoners. They're probably middle class landowners or retainers. I actually have a theory about Meribald in the Stepstones. It's possible that Westerosi infantrymen(the well equipped ones) are under no obligation to fight for the Iron Throne overseas(which wouldn't normally be a problem seeing as how the Iron Throne doesn't normally commit men to Essos) and that, in order to get an army together, the Iron Throne made it a payed expedition(so all of the troops who went would have been paid a certain sum each day). This would explain a reduction in the quality of infantry, as the infantry who would have shown up would be men who were either opportunists like Bronn who would be decent or, more likely, desperate smallfolk with no other way of making money. This would also explain why, of the noblemen who we know went, only one was a Lord, Ormund Baratheon would had been given command of the expedition and so had to go. The rest were young men(Tywin Lannister, Aerys Targaryen, Steffon Baratheon, Hoster Tully, Barristan Selmy) who were likely on the campaign in search of glory and military experience for later life. 

[Lord Varys]

@Lord Giggles

Well, in the actual middle ages chain mail was very expensive. Commoners couldn't afford anything of that, and it is actually insane to assume that any books sort of being based on the real medieval culture would include hundreds or thousands of men wearing this kind of stuff. Perhaps if all the lords and landed knights are assembled we could see such a sight, but not in the army of a smaller house.

We don't get any quotes I'm aware of that definitely confirm all the levies wore mail. I believe that a decent portion of the Karstark and Manderly men had the weapons that are mentioned, and I'd also not doubt that the Freys are rich enough to properly clothe their men-at-arms but I do not buy that all of the footmen had decent armor. That simply doesn't work.

I'm not saying there might not be a relatively small portions of commoners drafted into service who may afford to buy pretty good armor. But those would be the exception. The overwhelming majority of commoners outside the cities shouldn't have much coin. And from what I know the price chain mail in the middle ages was dozens of cattle, so even a pretty wealthy farmer couldn't afford buying more than one.

I know about Catelyn and the Northmen not staying but that might have less to do with them only being bound to military service for a short time and more with the fact that they were hanging out doing nothing for quite some time now. They would have gone back home if Robb hadn't marched. After Robb marched they stuck with him for quite some time, never demanding to go back home again.

And winter is threat that always looms in the North - both lords as well as commoner knew that they actually should get the harvest in.

Men-at-arms and guardsmen are essentially nobodies. We get that from Dunk considering that he could join a City Watch. If he can do it then you don't belong to some middle class to do it. There is a middle class among the commoners, of course, and they can be wealthier than some lords (I'm pretty sure Tobho Mott is among the wealthiest men in KL, actually, and the merchant whose daughter Lyonel Corbray married might be wealthier than Lord Lyonel himself, considering that the Corbrays supposedly are impoverished), but these people don't seem to involve themselves in martial matters. They hire swords, they do not swing them. Remember that merchant Ser Shadrich is serving in the beginning of AFfC?

The Iron Throne only being allowed to draft people to war in Westeros doesn't make any sense to me. The Iron Throne rules the Realm, it should have little reason to actually conscript people into service in its own land, anyway. Rebellions aren't seen as the rule, after all. And one should expect that people would have welcomed their king leading them into victory over a foreign invader and pursuing him back into his homeland across the Narrow Sea.

As to the Ninepenny Kings: We know that Lord Reyne was there, so actual lords did go there, not to mention that we do not know whether Hoster Tully was already the Lord of Riverrun at that time or not. I'm inclined to thing that he was considering that Catelyn would have been born a few years after the war. We also know that Lord Quellon Greyjoy and the Martells participated in the war, so there is no reason that there was anything different in that war.

Not to mention that Meribald is speaking about war in general, not specifically about his experience in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. He only mentions this in the end. He would be in fifties by now and considering that he seems to be from the Riverlands and is wandering this land for decades now he would also have witnessed the other wars in that region more or less firsthand (i.e. Robert's Rebellion and the War of the Five Kings). He knows what he is talking about.

[Lord Giggles]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Lord Giggles

Well, in the actual middle ages chain mail was very expensive. Commoners couldn't afford anything of that, and it is actually insane to assume that any books sort of being based on the real medieval culture would include hundreds or thousands of men wearing this kind of stuff. Perhaps if all the lords and landed knights are assembled we could see such a sight, but not in the army of a smaller house.

We don't get any quotes I'm aware of that definitely confirm all the levies wore mail. I believe that a decent portion of the Karstark and Manderly men had the weapons that are mentioned, and I'd also not doubt that the Freys are rich enough to properly clothe their men-at-arms but I do not buy that all of the footmen had decent armor. That simply doesn't work.

I'm not saying there might not be a relatively small portions of commoners drafted into service who may afford to buy pretty good armor. But those would be the exception. The overwhelming majority of commoners outside the cities shouldn't have much coin. And from what I know the price chain mail in the middle ages was dozens of cattle, so even a pretty wealthy farmer couldn't afford buying more than one.

I know about Catelyn and the Northmen not staying but that might have less to do with them only being bound to military service for a short time and more with the fact that they were hanging out doing nothing for quite some time now. They would have gone back home if Robb hadn't marched. After Robb marched they stuck with him for quite some time, never demanding to go back home again.

And winter is threat that always looms in the North - both lords as well as commoner knew that they actually should get the harvest in.

Men-at-arms and guardsmen are essentially nobodies. We get that from Dunk considering that he could join a City Watch. If he can do it then you don't belong to some middle class to do it. There is a middle class among the commoners, of course, and they can be wealthier than some lords (I'm pretty sure Tobho Mott is among the wealthiest men in KL, actually, and the merchant whose daughter Lyonel Corbray married might be wealthier than Lord Lyonel himself, considering that the Corbrays supposedly are impoverished), but these people don't seem to involve themselves in martial matters. They hire swords, they do not swing them. Remember that merchant Ser Shadrich is serving in the beginning of AFfC?

The Iron Throne only being allowed to draft people to war in Westeros doesn't make any sense to me. The Iron Throne rules the Realm, it should have little reason to actually conscript people into service in its own land, anyway. Rebellions aren't seen as the rule, after all. And one should expect that people would have welcomed their king leading them into victory over a foreign invader and pursuing him back into his homeland across the Narrow Sea.

As to the Ninepenny Kings: We know that Lord Reyne was there, so actual lords did go there, not to mention that we do not know whether Hoster Tully was already the Lord of Riverrun at that time or not. I'm inclined to thing that he was considering that Catelyn would have been born a few years after the war. We also know that Lord Quellon Greyjoy and the Martells participated in the war, so there is no reason that there was anything different in that war.

Not to mention that Meribald is speaking about war in general, not specifically about his experience in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. He only mentions this in the end. He would be in fifties by now and considering that he seems to be from the Riverlands and is wandering this land for decades now he would also have witnessed the other wars in that region more or less firsthand (i.e. Robert's Rebellion and the War of the Five Kings). He knows what he is talking about.

Quote confirming that all or nearly all levies of House Frey wear mail

Quote

“lord Walder’s bastard son Ronald rivers, leading a long column of pike men, rank on rank of shuffling men in blue steel ring mail and silver grey cloaks”

And I realize that mail was extremely expensive. In my thread about Westerosi infantry, I calculated that to equip one of the infantrymen described here would cost 7l. 7s. 6d.which, using the value of 1.5£ to a gold dragon means that one of them cost 5 gold dragons or thereabouts. Historically, lords didn't spend money equipping their troops except for in a few exceptional circumstances(the Duke of Buckingham buying one of his mounted archers a longbow worth 10£ and King Edward IV buying a squire a suit of armour costing 4£).

 

Also, medieval troops rarely served indefinitely. Even once you start getting troops who are contracted for campaigns, as the English were during the later stages of the Hundred Years War, they were contracted for a specific length of time(normally 6 months to a year). The only instance I can think of where troops were called upon to serve indefinitely is when Edward I invaded Scotland and even then he disbanded them at the end of the campaign season as he wouldn't be able to feed them all if they wintered in Scotland. 

 

And nobodies in the grand scheme of things doesn't mean they were nobodies back home. In the grand scheme of things, they're being compared to people like the noble houses of Westeros. Of course they aren't going to stand out amongst that lot. That doesn't mean they can't be middle class landowners back home with enough cash or other means to have proper equipment made for them. 

 

Final point is that, while it may not make sense to you, for the Iron Throne to not oblige men to serve it in campaign's overseas does make sense. If we look at the history of the Seven Kingdoms, there's only been one occasion when the Iron Throne has gone to war in Essos and that's the war of ninepenny kings so the usual levies may well be exempt from serving overseas or perceive themselves as being exempt(as some of the English nobility did when Edward I called upon them to serve in Gascony and Flanders). Indeed, it's entirely possible that it's a grey area that Westerosi law doesn't really touch on and so both sides interpret as it suits them. You may be surprised how reluctant nobles and reasonably well off people were to serve far away from home unless there was the prospect of land up for grabs.

 

[Lord Varys]

@Lord Giggles

I checked that quote. The context has it that Cat comes out of the Twins and rejoins Robb and his army on their side of the river. There is no reason to believe that the long column mentioned there is the entirety of the Frey foot. Subsequently there is a short dialogue scene and then jumps the chapter ahead to evening when the actual crossing takes place.

I'd say that the long column consisted of Frey men-at-arms displaying their strength, being perhaps a 100-200 men or so.

As to the Ninepenny Kings:

Jaehaerys II enacted the battle plan of his father and reacted very quickly. If such a preemptive strike couldn't count upon the loyalty of the majority of the lords then things wouldn't have gone as smoothly as they did.

[Lord Giggles]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Lord Giggles

I checked that quote. The context has it that Cat comes out of the Twins and rejoins Robb and his army on their side of the river. There is no reason to believe that the long column mentioned there is the entirety of the Frey foot. Subsequently there is a short dialogue scene and then jumps the chapter ahead to evening when the actual crossing takes place.

I'd say that the long column consisted of Frey men-at-arms displaying their strength, being perhaps a 100-200 men or so.

As to the Ninepenny Kings:

Jaehaerys II enacted the battle plan of his father and reacted very quickly. If such a preemptive strike couldn't count upon the loyalty of the majority of the lords then things wouldn't have gone as smoothly as they did.

Why would they bother displaying their strength. It's not going to impress the Starks, it's not going to intimidate them and after all, they're allies meaning that the Starks wouldn't see anything to be intimidated by. No, that's the entirety of the Frey foot marching out of the Twins to join Robb's army. Later, Catelyn observes the forces under Roose Bolton on the far bank and notes that they're "pikemen, archers and men-at-arms". As we've already established, men-at-arms are well armed infantry. Pikemen aren't going to be poorly trained levies for the simple reason that it does take more skill than can be acquired on the weeks they're marching to fight in formation using a pike. That just leaves the archers, who may well be smallfolk but seeing as we don't see the northern archers in action, we can't pass judgement either way. 

 

They could have done if his army was raised in the fashion I suggested above. Jaehaerys wouldn't need the support of his lords to put together a force of paid infantry and knights for a campaign in the Stepstones. He could have done it upon his own initiative and that would have been faster than getting his lords to raise their levies as the foot could have come from anyone willing to accept the King's money in exchange for service in the war while the young nobles would likely be far faster to respond to a call to arms than their fathers. And there's no evidence for northerners participating in the war of ninepenny kings, which would make sense if this was the method used as the north is furthest away meaning fewer of them are likely to have been able to make it in time.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Lord Giggles

Well, in the actual middle ages chain mail was very expensive. Commoners couldn't afford anything of that, and it is actually insane to assume that any books sort of being based on the real medieval culture would include hundreds or thousands of men wearing this kind of stuff. Perhaps if all the lords and landed knights are assembled we could see such a sight, but not in the army of a smaller house.

We don't get any quotes I'm aware of that definitely confirm all the levies wore mail. I believe that a decent portion of the Karstark and Manderly men had the weapons that are mentioned, and I'd also not doubt that the Freys are rich enough to properly clothe their men-at-arms but I do not buy that all of the footmen had decent armor. That simply doesn't work.

I'm not saying there might not be a relatively small portions of commoners drafted into service who may afford to buy pretty good armor. But those would be the exception. The overwhelming majority of commoners outside the cities shouldn't have much coin. And from what I know the price chain mail in the middle ages was dozens of cattle, so even a pretty wealthy farmer couldn't afford buying more than one.

Yes, that equipment was incredible expensive. Yes, only an incredibly low portion of "commoners" (free men, franklins, yeomens,...) could afford to buy that kind of equipment?

Yes, that incredibly low portion was the only portion of the population ever drafted, making up 100% of the armed forces, together with the nobles themselves.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lord Giggles said:

Why would they bother displaying their strength. It's not going to impress the Starks, it's not going to intimidate them and after all, they're allies meaning that the Starks wouldn't see anything to be intimidated by. No, that's the entirety of the Frey foot marching out of the Twins to join Robb's army. Later, Catelyn observes the forces under Roose Bolton on the far bank and notes that they're "pikemen, archers and men-at-arms". As we've already established, men-at-arms are well armed infantry. Pikemen aren't going to be poorly trained levies for the simple reason that it does take more skill than can be acquired on the weeks they're marching to fight in formation using a pike. That just leaves the archers, who may well be smallfolk but seeing as we don't see the northern archers in action, we can't pass judgement either way. 

But we don't know that those were all the Frey footmen. That's just an assumption. Without numbers given we don't know.

Septon Meribald is a guy actually talking about that stuff, you are just theorizing without actually having firsthand information.

Quote

They could have done if his army was raised in the fashion I suggested above. Jaehaerys wouldn't need the support of his lords to put together a force of paid infantry and knights for a campaign in the Stepstones. He could have done it upon his own initiative and that would have been faster than getting his lords to raise their levies as the foot could have come from anyone willing to accept the King's money in exchange for service in the war while the young nobles would likely be far faster to respond to a call to arms than their fathers. And there's no evidence for northerners participating in the war of ninepenny kings, which would make sense if this was the method used as the north is furthest away meaning fewer of them are likely to have been able to make it in time.

But the lords did raise their levies. Men and lords from the West and other places were there. We know this. 

3 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Yes, that equipment was incredible expensive. Yes, only an incredibly low portion of "commoners" (free men, franklins, yeomens,...) could afford to buy that kind of equipment?

Yes, that incredibly low portion was the only portion of the population ever drafted, making up 100% of the armed forces, together with the nobles themselves.

I admit that this is somewhat convincing, but I think reality as it is shown by Meribald and in the Dunk & Egg stories is differently. There simply aren't any war-like peasants/commoners in this world. Or rather, those that are don't have good equipment. If the richer commoners owned good steel and armor we wouldn't have the Martin phrase 'castle-forged steel', there wouldn't be so many hedge knights and freeriders as there are in this series (because those people could just buy themselves a lot of stuff for their armor).

Not to mention that we see those commoners who have money not being conscripted. The merchants and craftsmen in KL seem to get a free pass, and the men actually owning (being given weapons) are the City Watch whose members aren't rich enough to buy themselves some armor or weapons.

We also don't know how many commoners outside the wealthy cities are rich enough to be able to buy themselves some armor. I don't see many of that sort.

Even the richer farmers are not likely to be able to afford to part from a lot of cattle just to own some chain mail. Not to mention that they would even less inclined to face any mounted knights with pikes.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Merribald is a liar. Not through any ill intent, but because he never was a soldier and presents camp followers and soldiers as just the same.

In the Dunk&Egg stories, Osgrey got exactly one soldier and he is named Dunk. His lands have been cut down so severely, he can't form a proper knightly lance anymore and would ultimately loose his status.

 

Commoners are not conscripted. Never were. There is a layered (tax) structure.

Layer zero are the ordinary peasants, not allowed to carry arms, paying like 50% of their income in taxes and still having to serve a couple weeks per year as labor force on the Lord's property, as well as having limited rights, like being unable to represent themselves in court.

Layer one are the prospering franklins, yeomen and the like. Paying like 10% in taxes, can represent themselves in court, stuff like that. Why do they have so many privileges over the ordinary peasants? Because they have to equip themselves for battle (with said equipment, expensive as it is) and serve the Lord on campaign, for a given amount of time per year.

Layer two are the actual nobility, landed knights and such. Paying zero taxes (neglecting scutage and tariffs and such), instead receiving taxes from their lands, can represent themselves in court, represent the peasants of their lands in court, judging non-capital crimes committed by peasants on their lands. And having to serve the Lord on campaign or at court and in administration, for a given amount of time per year, with a full knightly lance of a knight, a squire, a given amount of archers, a given amount of billmen, drawn from the franklins and yeomen of their lands.

Layer three are the Lords. Paying zero taxes, receiving taxes both from their own lands and the landed knights holding lands from them, all the privileges of the landed knights, can judge capital crimes committed on their lands and the lands of their landed knights, but got to provide an army suitable for their lands when their own Lord calls.

If you don't want to fight: go down to being a peasant. May bite you when the tax collector comes and you can't even go to court. Your choice.

 

Cities were a somewhat different matter though, with the city militia being formed by the prosperous artisans, but equipped from city taxes. Cities belonged to a different economic system, being way more money-based and thus actually capable of paying a significant amount of taxes in coin instead of sacks of grain or hours of labor.

[Lord Varys]

@Bright Blue Eyes

I just don't buy that. If you were right then you would know the situation in Westeros better than a guy who lives there, the people who listened to him (and did not call him a liar), and essentially George.

You cannot project all your knowledge about the middle ages and other stuff into the series and then say that's how it is. Not to mention that it is a pretty bold claim to just reinterpret Meribald's speech as being 'a lie', basically. I'll believe that as soon as George confirms that.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Don't believe me if you wish to. But don't complain about the illogic of your assumptions or claim that the actual descriptions we witness in one PoV after another are less reliable than an old man's unsupported fairy tale.

 

And please don't accuse me of calling GRRM a liar. Because he isn't and I didn't. He's a good writer, who writes limited perspective PoVs colored by their own subjective experiences and emotions, not an objective account.

[Tarellen]

On June 4, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

The Starks should be the poorest great lords by far, and many smaller houses should actually be much more wealthier than they are, especially those who control, say, gold mines (i.e. most of the lords of the West).

There are many hints that the Starks are short in coin, and that's the crucial thing when we are discussing wealth. All lords do own lands, and the amount of land you control means nothing if nobody wants to buy it. And essentially nobody wants to buy anything or settle in the North, that much is clear. Even Rickard Stark looked south for his marriages and alliances.

The hints I'm speaking about are the following:

- It is mentioned in AGoT and ACoK that Starks have silver in their coffers, but there is no mention of gold as far as I recall. Their silver would the Starks get from the Manderlys who have silver mines on their lands - there is no mention of any other mines of precious things (gold, platinum, gemstones, etc.) anywhere in the North.

- The royal visit of Robert Baratheon and his family and entourage apparently was a problem for the Stark budget - considering the poor entertainment (no singers, no balls, no tourneys, no mummers, no pretty much anything aside from some hunts and a feast) the royals got at Winterfell the Starks don't seem to have the coin or the other resources to entertain anyone on a high level. Just compare that to the tourney Lord Whent threw at Harrenhal in the False Spring or the tourney at Lannisport Tywin threw to celebrate the birth of Prince Viserys. Does anybody think they cared about the wealth and splendor they showed off to Aerys and the Realm back then? I don't think so.

- The Broken Tower broke some time ago and was never rebuilt, renewed, or torn down. This can be seen as the Starks lacking the resources to repair the castle or keep it in top shape (Castle Tarbeck also was in decay because the Tarbecks were impoverished - that only changed after Ellyn Reyne married into the house).

- Sansa considers Jory to look somewhat like a beggar in his plan and unadorned armor, and not in comparison to Loras, Renly, or Jaime but in comparison to second-tier lords like Beric Dondarrion. That is a pretty big hint that the North doesn't exactly have much coin to spare.

In light of any of that - especially the tokens and sign of true wealth like the Lannisters, the Tyrells, and the people at court often depict - I see no reason why we should assume the Stark are very rich.

Their lands also aren't very fertile. They can't be due the climatic region they are in, not to mention the fact that nobody lives up there. Just remember how dismissive Mace and Paxter are of the Starks in ASoS. The lands north of the Neck might be vast but they are empty and insignificant compared to theirs. And they should know that because the Reach is bread basket of the Realm. They produce huge amounts of food and the surplus they make seem to be enough to feed half the Realm or more. The Starks may have more land, but the Tyrells certainly get more crops and meat off the lands they hold.

The Crown is a special issue it seems to depend on the king whether he throws the tax money out or whether he keeps it. But it is quite clear that there were Targaryen kings who were insanely rich, most notably Jaehaerys I and Viserys I. The Crown collects the most taxes so in good years they should be riches. And there are hints that the Crown collects taxes from everyone, not just the great houses. There are royal tax collectors in Gulltown and White Harbor, after all. But we don't know any details about that. In any case, it is clearly the case that vassals can be richer than their lieges (the Lannisters are richer than the Crown) so presumably the lion's share in gold from mines or coin from trade might go into the coffers of the local lord rather than his liege. But that is just a guess. 

One has also to consider the amount of money the Crown makes off the trade in KL. It is the biggest city in Westeros and the Crown should essentially take a share off every business transaction done in the city. And, of course, they also collect taxes from Duskendale.

If I'd have to make a list it would look something like that:

1. The Lannisters (not just because of their gold but also because of the the taxes and money they make off Lannisport)

2. The Tyrells (taxes from all over the Reach should award them greater incomes than the Hightowers; but it might be a close thing)

3. The Hightowers (due to the wealth of their city and the riches they amassed throughout the centuries)

4. The other richer houses in the West (I'm not sure how many, certainly four or five, I'd think); we know they have a lot of gold but also very fertile lands. Once the Reynes would have been the top dogs after the Lannisters, perhaps on the same level as the Hightowers.

5. Here could come some of the other great houses. I'd consider the Arryns and Tullys to come before the Baratheons and Martells (Lysa had Jon Arryn made that rather costly armor and sword - Renly as the king's brother might have more incomes that just what he gets as Lord of the Stormlands). The Martells should make some decent profits from trade with the near by Free Cities, whereas the Greyjoys would certainly be poorer than the Starks in the present scenario (but historically the Ironborn often might have been richer). Not sure whether the Starks are richer than the Manderlys. We just don't know how high their incomes are, and how much coin they have to spend to maintain the North, especially in winter.

6. The houses controlling important cities (Graftons, Manderlys) might actually be richer than some of the greater houses and houses controlling important trade routes like the Freys would also play in the top league. There were short-lived houses like the Butterwells who certainly were wealthier than many of the great houses (Ambrose Butterwell used an insane amount of money to built Whitewalls), and we should consider the major houses holding Harrenhal (Qoherys, Strong, Lothston, Whent, and Baelish) to be among the most wealthiest houses in Westeros simply because nobody in his right mind would take or aspire to be the Lord of Harrenhal if he or she didn't have the coin to maintain this castle (or at least a good portion thereof).

Jory was just the captain of the guard not a lord. Also I'm pretty sure silver is valuable. Also your saying they have to show off how rich they are constantly to prove there rich even though the north is known for frugality? So if cat wore jewels constantly you would consider them rich like the exstragent martels? 

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Don't believe me if you wish to. But don't complain about the illogic of your assumptions or claim that the actual descriptions we witness in one PoV after another are less reliable than an old man's unsupported fairy tale.

The POVs are colored. The idea to take numbers and descriptions of huge groups of people at face value is difficult in itself. Have you ever counted large thousands of people? Or really checked what they wear and what they carry? The very structure of the POVs makes it unlikely that we get exact numbers on armies or equipment.

Yeomen are mentioned once in TMK. They exist in Stony Sept. I never heard anything about franklins and such, and we don't even know what difference there is between Westerosi yeomen and English yeomen. There might be several, just as there are between Westerosi lords and real world nobility, etc.

The focus of this story is on the story, not on creating a believable and thorough fake medieval culture. I'd prefer if George had thought things through better or would have written theoretical texts explaining the laws and customs of Westeros but he did not. And until such time as he does we cannot really make good conclusions on one or the other. 

Just now, Bright Blue Eyes said:

And please don't accuse me of calling GRRM a liar. Because he isn't and I didn't. He's a good writer, who writes limited perspective PoVs colored by their own subjective experiences and emotions, not an objective account.

We can assume that George put a lot of work and effort into Meribald's speech. I very much doubt he intended us to interpret that speech to contain mistakes or lies. At times George is speaking through his characters as he himself admitted (for instance, the riddle on power supposedly reflects his own political views). And seeing Meribald as a liar is deliberately misconstruing the author for a strange reason (creating some sort of convincing private feudal system of Westeros that is not really purpose nor the point of the story).

On a textual hierarchy numbers and descriptions of people in the background are background. Meribald's speech is not. It is an important piece of prose in the story. When in doubt one should focus on the more important pieces and not on the background noise. There are mistakes and contradictions in those books.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think Martin has created a blended system. Whether from a lack of knowledge of the true Middle Ages (which I highly doubt) or a lack of interest in the military and economic aspects of that period (which is slightly more plausible, but still feels unlikely), or simply for storytelling reasons.

I think that Martin's armies consist of a first layer of well trained and equipped troops, and then a backup horde of peasant rabble. We see this in Stafford's Oxcross army, we see it with House Osgrey, and we even see it in the Frey army that marches up the Neck, where Theon says that behind the 400 Frey Knights followed more than a thousand footsoldiers of all types, including "field hands with scythes and sharpened sticks".

So it seems to me that the Freys are tapped out, and the men they send up North with Roose include a heavy portion of "peasants with pitchforks". Now, I also don't agree with the realism of this, but Martin seems to like the imagery of it.

[Lord Varys]

@Free Northman Reborn

Exactly.

Anybody remember 'the steward of the Red Keep'?

The poor, faceless, nameless guy who showed up in AGoT when Ned arrived in KL?

Never heard of again - considering how important stewards are in other castles (Pooles, the Ashford's steward in THK, the Tyrells in ancient days) that certainly is very odd.

Yet the story works perfectly fine without us knowing the name and the face of the (no longer existing?) steward of the Red Keep.

We have to keep in mind that George created this series basically before the internet days. He could not just research any topic he had no idea about via wikipedia. And he doesn't care all that much for population growths, travel time, medieval economy, and other (potentially interesting) topics.

That is fine.

Trying to hard to make sense of stuff which might not be intended to make sense (or entail mistakes/contradictions) is a danger we all face. I myself most of all with my weirdo speculations about the genealogies and potential marriages of non-existent people.