How rich are the Starks pre series

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ah, I'm glad someone brought up the Twins. This is a topic I have written about extensively in the past.

In brief, the Twins really just connect the bulk of the Riverlands with the extreme Northeast Riverlands. And with the North, of course. It does not connect to the Vale, it does not connect to the Crownlands, or the Reach.

So other than inter-Riverland traffic, the bulk of its traffic would be between the North and the Riverlands. Meaning that this trade would have had to come through Moat Cailin first. What's more, only a fraction of the traffic through Moat Cailin would eventually go through the Twins, since any traffic from the North to the Vale or from the North to the Crownlands would bypass the Twins and go down the Kingsroad instead.

So, the simple truth is that if the Twins became rich off their bridge, whoever holds Moat Cailin should have gotten vastly richer from holding that traffic bottleneck. And they clearly didn't, as it is abandoned.

 

The Starks hold Moat Cailin and it would be incredibly counter productive of them to start charging large taxes on merchants bringing food to them  (especially in winter). Nor does it make much sense them charging their on merchants to travel through Moat Cailin as it costs the Starks in the long run.

Then there is the cost of running a garrison at Moat Cailin to make sure there is payment and no merchants sneaking past.

 

And then there is the fact that the Kingsroad was built by Jaehaerys not the Starks. Similar to how the Targs were able to give away the New Gift, much to the chagrin of the Starks, maybe the Kingsroad (and its sisters) is a public road free for all.

The Twins are able to make a profit from the bridge they built and maintain because there are no few other options around. They are able to have a garrison there because their lands seem fairly fertile and can support the soldiers.

 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The Starks hold Moat Cailin and it would be incredibly counter productive of them to start charging large taxes on merchants bringing food to them  (especially in winter). Nor does it make much sense them charging their on merchants to travel through Moat Cailin as it costs the Starks in the long run.

Nobody, absolutely nobody, ships food by land. It is simply not possible for a wagon team to deliver any cargo they wouldn't eat up on a trip one twentieth the length.

[Lord Varys]

@Bright Blue Eyes

The Kingsroad in the North does not seem to have been built by Jaehaerys I. If there was a part of that road that was already in existence long before that it was that road because it connects Winterfell with the Wall and Moat Cailin. In fact, unless we also assume Jaehaerys I built the causeway through the Neck and chose to have it exit the Neck at Moat Cailin (and not some other more convenient place where the Northmen couldn't easily block anybody coming up north) then even the road through the Neck was a thing prior to the Targaryens.

The parts of the road Jaehaerys planned and built would have been the sections connecting the existing road network to KL because in that region there wouldn't have been a major road prior to the Conquest.

The Roseroad, the road through the Riverlands, the Gold Road and the High Road would all have existed in one form or another (for the Ocean Road this is actually confirmed) before the Conquest. But it seems clear that Jaehaerys I broadened and enlarged those roads and whatever parts of the Kingsroad were already existing. Perhaps even changed some roads to fit in with his new designs in light of the new political situation.

As to trade occurring within the North or the North on a large scale with the other kingdoms: There is no evidence for that, aside from general trade with White Harbor and other places.

But White Harbor would deal with goods made in its vicinity, and any trade done there is hardly going to profit the other lords. Nothing suggests that anyone south of the Neck is dependent on or interested in goods produced in the North. Not that there are any hints that they are producing stuff on a scale that would make it profitable to export it.

As to Moat Cailin:

The Neck belongs to the North, so there would no reason to use Moat Cailin as some kind of customs station. Such a place would have to be wherever the lands of the crannogmen officially began (and it doesn't exist there, either).

The difficulty of reaching the North easy overland should greatly dissuade anyone interest in trading with the North overland at all. We see how disinterested the average guy (Marillion, Glendon Ball) is in even considering the possibility of going north.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Kingsroad from Winterfell to Castle Black is post-Jaehaerys. It doesn't follow the logical route Winterfell-Queenscrown-Nightfort, as it would have earlier. Nor does it connect to Last Hearth or the Dreadfort.

The southern part of it is just as impractical. Neither Barrowton nor White Harbor connected to it, just a road through nowhere right up until the White Knife.

 

The causeway is mostly natural. Probably originally the watershed between the Bite and the Sunset Sea.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

spot on. 

 

If the kingsroad was pre targaryen, it would had ended in the Night fort.

[tugela]

8 hours ago, Lord Giggles said:

Sparsely populated yes so the North isn't going to be as rich as it should be if we went by pure size that's true. However, as I've pointed out earlier, a lot of the northern land could be converted to pasture with minimal effort from humans(compared to farming) ensuring that the north still makes money from all that land. If we go by your criteria for how wealthy somewhere is, it's army, and put the Westerlands at the top due to gold, how wealthy the kingdoms are comes out like this

1. Westerlands

2. Reach

3. Riverlands, Vale and the North

4. Stormlands

5. Iron Islands

6. Dorne

7. Crownlands

As I'm sure you'll agree, this doesn't really make sense given what we know of trade in Westeros and what goods are produced by where. And for a sparsely populated medieval kingdom, not meeting anyone wasn't that difficult and all of the Kingdoms in Westeros are sparsely populated by our own world's standards. I could keep going but I won't be saying anything that hasn't already been said so once again I would be grateful if you could look over the past pages of this discussion to see the arguments as to why the north is not as poor as you are assuming

The basis of wealth in medieval society was agricultural output. That is why places like Highgarden are rich. Having a bunch of empty land didn't make you wealthy if it was not producing. Life was relatively easy in the south, so lots of people farming. Life was relatively hard in the north, so fewer people farming, and those that do have difficulty producing more than what they need for subsistence. That results in their lords being poor. Poor lords have access to fewer people (= men for their armies) and have fewer goods to trade to arm those men. So, army size is a good rule of thumb for wealth in the society. The north had by far the smallest army.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

The Kingsroad from Winterfell to Castle Black is post-Jaehaerys. It doesn't follow the logical route Winterfell-Queenscrown-Nightfort, as it would have earlier. Nor does it connect to Last Hearth or the Dreadfort.

The southern part of it is just as impractical. Neither Barrowton nor White Harbor connected to it, just a road through nowhere right up until the White Knife.

Well, it is not some tourist railroad zigzagging throughout the countryside showing you the North's greatest hits. It is a road connecting Moat Cailin to Winterfell and the Wall. No idea why you think any road doing that job should also connect or include White Harbor and Barrowton. Not to mention Last Hearth and the Dreadfort. Why should anyone want to go there while being on the way to the Wall?

There might be smaller roads connecting the Dreadfort and Last Hearth to the Kingsroad, of course, but we don't know anything about that. Considering the shape the Kingsroad has north of Winterfell I don't expect them to be in any better shape.

1 hour ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

The causeway is mostly natural. Probably originally the watershed between the Bite and the Sunset Sea.

Whether the causeway is natural or not is irrelevant. It is the only road throughout the Neck a larger group of people can take and thus was and still is the only road through the Neck and was in existence long before the Kingsroad was built. Any road built by the Kings in the North would also have crossed the Neck at the very same point and would also have connected Moat Cailin and Winterfell (that would actually be of paramount importance considering that the Kings in the North should have been interested in messages from and to Moat Cailin as quickly as possible.

20 minutes ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

spot on. 

 

If the kingsroad was pre targaryen, it would had ended in the Night fort.

Perhaps it once did? I mean, we know that the Kingsroad is essentially nothing but a trail up near the Wall, so whatever road might originally have gone to the Nightfort may have been identical with the Kingsroad up until near the Wall and then taken the shortest route to that castle instead of Castle Black. Once the Lord Commander moved a new trail was made quickly enough (the trail to Mole's Town might have existed for a long time at this point, anyway).

Jaehaerys I would have been utterly stupid to built an entirely new road from Winterfell to the Wall and not improve on one already built by the Starks. If the Nightfort was already abandoned when that road was finished then this, too, could explain why his one ended at the Wall and did not renew the piece the Starks had built to the now useless Nightfort.

Thinking about that a little bit more - there is no reason to believe Queenscrown was a place of any importance. Queen Alysanne flew to the Wall on Silverwing. She didn't take a road. And subsequently she would have looked for some watchtower to spend the night in from above rather than following some road to a village.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes, it is a road connecting Winterfell to Castle Black. To a strictly military castle without any economic value. That's why no merchants use it. That's why it's not settled from begnning to end. That's why Jon and Tyrion don't see anybody close by.

Last Hearth or the Dreadfort are economic powerhouses. They trade with Winterfell. The population clusters around their roads to Winterfell. The big roads actually used.

 

Travelling through the Neck isn't important for the Northmen. There is no non-negligible trade happening there. Nor does the North regularly invade the South. The causeway and the Kingsroad is a useless piece of work and a military liability.

Nor can it be artificial. Artificial causeways are expensive. Both to build and to maintain. And maintaining them requires a sizeable population close enough to do the work. A sizeable population not shown to be in existence.

 

We've got maps for the North, including the Kingsroad. No sharp turns anywhere, it's a straight beeline to Castle Black. Furthermore, the Nightfort was only abandoned during Jaehaerys' reign, as stated straight in the text.

 

It's about 99% likely that Queen Alysanne followed the then-road to the Wall. She'd have no other choice than to navigate by landmarks, having neither GPS nor sextant. Early pilots did just the same, following roads (or railways) as much as possible and using towns to alter direction.

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Yes, it is a road connecting Winterfell to Castle Black. To a strictly military castle without any economic value. That's why no merchants use it. That's why it's not settled from begnning to end. That's why Jon and Tyrion don't see anybody close by.

Yeah, that's also the reason why only military personnel travels the Kingsroad down South, right? Come on.

21 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Last Hearth or the Dreadfort are economic powerhouses. They trade with Winterfell. The population clusters around their roads to Winterfell. The big roads actually used.

Aha. Evidence for any of that? Nope. There is no evidence for trade with Winterfell on a regular or large basis nor any evidence for any such roads existing. Hell, there is not even any evidence that there are traders or merchants within the walls of Winterfell. We never hear of any such people. Not even in the Winter Town. That is one of the main reason why it makes no sense to imagine that there is a lot of trade in the North. If the people get more or less along with making their own stuff they don't need any fancy trade or use resources to move stuff across the land nobody would want to buy anyway. If there is no merchant middle class in Winterfell there is no such class in Last Hearth, either.

21 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Travelling through the Neck isn't important for the Northmen. There is no non-negligible trade happening there. Nor does the North regularly invade the South. The causeway and the Kingsroad is a useless piece of work and a military liability.

I was talking about the times in which the North was attacked by the Andals on a regular basis. Presumably back then the Starks had no idea to get to the Neck as quickly as possible or sent men down there for some raiding of their own? Not to mention that they actually had part-time enemies in the Marsh Kings until such a time as they crushed them.

21 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Nor can it be artificial. Artificial causeways are expensive. Both to build and to maintain. And maintaining them requires a sizeable population close enough to do the work. A sizeable population not shown to be in existence.

What are you addressing here? I never said anybody built the causeway, I just said it was the only place where the Northmen could cross the Neck, and thus it would have been the only place where people would have crossed the Neck before and after the Conquest.

I assume you also think anyone joining the NW prior to the reign of Jaehaerys I had the money or the intention to catch a ship rather than to go there by road. That would also be the reason why there are wandering crows. I see all the poor sots from Stony Sept or Hag's Mire catching a ship at Seagard and go up there to the non-existing harbor west of the Wall to join the NW. Or better, cross all of Westeros to get to Eastwatch rather than, you know, take the existing road across the Neck on foot.

21 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

We've got maps for the North, including the Kingsroad. No sharp turns anywhere, it's a straight beeline to Castle Black. Furthermore, the Nightfort was only abandoned during Jaehaerys' reign, as stated straight in the text.

I know that. But who cares? We don't know when the Kingsroad was built in Jaehaerys' reign but we actually do know that Alysanne traveled to the Wall in the early part of her brother's reign. We know that from the fact that Lord Ellard wasn't the guy who was pissed about the whole New Gift thing.

21 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

It's about 99% likely that Queen Alysanne followed the then-road to the Wall. She'd have no other choice than to navigate by landmarks, having neither GPS nor sextant. Early pilots did just the same, following roads (or railways) as much as possible and using towns to alter direction.

That is just crap. Queen Alysanne wanted to fly north. I can find out where north is just by looking at the sky and using my brain. But you are completely wrong there because dragonriders certainly had a way to orientate themselves - we know that Aegon the Conqueror and Daemon/Rhaenyra flew from KL to Dragonstone and back on dragonback and they had no way to check their direction by checking the ground. Not to mention that Daemon and Laena actually crossed the Narrow Sea on dragonback (and Visenya and Maegor, too).

And by the way - any evidence there are no sextants in Martinworld?

[Lord Giggles]

9 hours ago, tugela said:

The basis of wealth in medieval society was agricultural output. That is why places like Highgarden are rich. Having a bunch of empty land didn't make you wealthy if it was not producing. Life was relatively easy in the south, so lots of people farming. Life was relatively hard in the north, so fewer people farming, and those that do have difficulty producing more than what they need for subsistence. That results in their lords being poor. Poor lords have access to fewer people (= men for their armies) and have fewer goods to trade to arm those men. So, army size is a good rule of thumb for wealth in the society. The north had by far the smallest army.

As I've pointed out, the sections of the North where there aren't sufficient people could easily be turned over to pasture. Yes there are fewer people farming but that because there are fewer people in general. Even if the North is still sparsely populated, if we take out trade and go just by how much food it produces, that would still put it on about the same level as the Riverlands and the Vale. As to lords arming their own men, newsflash: they most likely wouldn't. Men would need to bring their own equipment which is why in feudal societies in our own world, the armoured classes were granted tax relief. And the maximum number of men the North can call up is the same as the number that can be called up by the Riverlands and Vale, putting the North on the same level as those two kingdoms. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that's also the reason why only military personnel travels the Kingsroad down South, right? Come on.

Aha. Evidence for any of that? Nope. There is no evidence for trade with Winterfell on a regular or large basis nor any evidence for any such roads existing. Hell, there is not even any evidence that there are traders or merchants within the walls of Winterfell. We never hear of any such people. Not even in the Winter Town. That is one of the main reason why it makes no sense to imagine that there is a lot of trade in the North. If the people get more or less along with making their own stuff they don't need any fancy trade or use resources to move stuff across the land nobody would want to buy anyway. If there is no merchant middle class in Winterfell there is no such class in Last Hearth, either.

I was talking about the times in which the North was attacked by the Andals on a regular basis. Presumably back then the Starks had no idea to get to the Neck as quickly as possible or sent men down there for some raiding of their own? Not to mention that they actually had part-time enemies in the Marsh Kings until such a time as they crushed them.

What are you addressing here? I never said anybody built the causeway, I just said it was the only place where the Northmen could cross the Neck, and thus it would have been the only place where people would have crossed the Neck before and after the Conquest.

I assume you also think anyone joining the NW prior to the reign of Jaehaerys I had the money or the intention to catch a ship rather than to go there by road. That would also be the reason why there are wandering crows. I see all the poor sots from Stony Sept or Hag's Mire catching a ship at Seagard and go up there to the non-existing harbor west of the Wall to join the NW. Or better, cross all of Westeros to get to Eastwatch rather than, you know, take the existing road across the Neck on foot.

I know that. But who cares? We don't know when the Kingsroad was built in Jaehaerys' reign but we actually do know that Alysanne traveled to the Wall in the early part of her brother's reign. We know that from the fact that Lord Ellard wasn't the guy who was pissed about the whole New Gift thing.

That is just crap. Queen Alysanne wanted to fly north. I can find out where north is just by looking at the sky and using my brain. But you are completely wrong there because dragonriders certainly had a way to orientate themselves - we know that Aegon the Conqueror and Daemon/Rhaenyra flew from KL to Dragonstone and back on dragonback and they had no way to check their direction by checking the ground. Not to mention that Daemon and Laena actually crossed the Narrow Sea on dragonback (and Visenya and Maegor, too).

And by the way - any evidence there are no sextants in Martinworld?

It's possible that a limited number of people travel north on the Kingsroad up until you reach Winterfell and it starts on the section going up the Wall at which point only military personnel stay on the road and everyone else goes to another track. And in Bright Blue Eyes defence, we don't have much evidence for trade in Westeros generally. Given that we know there are wine merchants and the like, I'd be tempted to say that there are merchants but POVs generally overlook them as they're not anything noteworthy

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lord Giggles said:

It's possible that a limited number of people travel north on the Kingsroad up until you reach Winterfell and it starts on the section going up the Wall at which point only military personnel stay on the road and everyone else goes to another track. And in Bright Blue Eyes defence, we don't have much evidence for trade in Westeros generally. Given that we know there are wine merchants and the like, I'd be tempted to say that there are merchants but POVs generally overlook them as they're not anything noteworthy

Come on, now, BBE throws a lot of ad hoc explanations at us to keep his idea alive that there are economic power houses in the North. What is going to come next? That there are invisible merchants all over the North?

There are merchants down in the South. The guy Brienne meets on her way to Duskendale, the merchants mentioned to live in KL, Duskendale, and Oldtown, and so on. Even Saltpans seem to have its share of traders.

Now, if go with the 'castle culture' Westeros seems to have and assume that a lot of stuff that usually happens in towns or cities does happen in Westeros in castles, then one would expect a much larger population in Winterfell than there actually is. What we have there helps the Starks to maintain the castle and survive but there is no hint that the people working for them help them to make a profit or are producing goods for export (or are even importing things).

Whatever trade there is between White Harbor and Winterfell (which I assume must exist in some fashion) could easily go by waterway - get the goods up the White Knife and then take the tributary of that river which leads east to Castle Cerwyn. There could goods be taken off the boats to be taken to Winterfell up the Kingsroad. This could also explain why the hell Castle Cerwyn exists in the first place.

Last Hearth could also the Last River to move goods (if they have anything to move). One assumes that they also use the Kingsroad to get to Winterfell because crossing the White Knife, Long Lake, or the Lonely Hills might take longer to get there then just taking the actual road.

The idea that a lot of other (better) roads exist that aren't included in the map is just silly.

Oldcastle, Ramsgate, Widow's Watch, the Dreadfort, and Karhold might have small harbors of their own. Whether any major traders ever hold at those ports is unclear. But I guess the Karstarks could sell some foreign traders lumber from their woods if they stop by.

Thinking about that a little bit more:

If the Umbers provided Lord Manderly with wood for the building of his ships (which is discussed as an option in ACoK) and the Last River is navigable then even the Umbers could have some small port near their castle from where the wood was transported down the river and the east coast to White Harbor.

However, it does not strike me as very likely that this was done considering the Umbers lacking men for their harvest. They wouldn't have used any people they had to continue the harvest and not spared any to cut down trees and deliver them to the Manderlys. Not to mention that not all that much time passed between ACoK and ADwD.

[tugela]

1 hour ago, Lord Giggles said:

As I've pointed out, the sections of the North where there aren't sufficient people could easily be turned over to pasture. Yes there are fewer people farming but that because there are fewer people in general. Even if the North is still sparsely populated, if we take out trade and go just by how much food it produces, that would still put it on about the same level as the Riverlands and the Vale. As to lords arming their own men, newsflash: they most likely wouldn't. Men would need to bring their own equipment which is why in feudal societies in our own world, the armoured classes were granted tax relief. And the maximum number of men the North can call up is the same as the number that can be called up by the Riverlands and Vale, putting the North on the same level as those two kingdoms. 

It's possible that a limited number of people travel north on the Kingsroad up until you reach Winterfell and it starts on the section going up the Wall at which point only military personnel stay on the road and everyone else goes to another track. And in Bright Blue Eyes defence, we don't have much evidence for trade in Westeros generally. Given that we know there are wine merchants and the like, I'd be tempted to say that there are merchants but POVs generally overlook them as they're not anything noteworthy

The reason there are fewer people in the north is because it is much harder to eke out a living. If people are barely able to feed themselves, they will have nothing left over to pay their lord as taxes. Hence the lord has less wealth. Your assumption that fewer people = more surplus produce is misguided. On unproductive land it works out to less resources, because you have to work much harder to generate X produce.

We have seen the armies of Westeros. They are wearing uniformed armor, and carry uniformed weapons. These guys have to be fed and housed, someone has to make their weapons and armor, and all the support services have to be fed and clothed. These would have to be bought and paid for by the lord through taxes, which is the excess produce derived form the peasants. Not necessarily the liege lord himself, but a feudal system is a tiered structure with various levels of aristocracy. At the top you would have the main lord. Under him would be lesser lords, but even these do not oversee every bit of their lands. There would be another layer under them still, with knights and such who would be tasked with keeping order in local areas and dealing with the nuts and bolts of tax collection and management of the realms infrastructure. These are the men who would be employing smiths, masons and such to produce weapons, build and maintain towers and keeps, and so forth, not to mention their local garrison. All of that is built on the produce the peasants generate. If your peasants are few and don't generate a lot of surplus, then the ability of all these layers of aristocracy to maintain a lot of infrastructure is limited. That in turn places limits on their ability to raise forces for war.

I don't know if you have ever tried farming in a northern climate, but it is considerably harder and yields are considerably lower than in more temperate climates. This is in fact the reason why the Vikings took up raiding - their own farmland was unproductive. They had a ton of real estate but most of it was useless for farming.

For comparative purposes, compare the output of a place like Scotland compared to England. There is no comparison, and England was always wealthier than Scotland. That is why for the most part they kicked the Scots asses in battle. They always had more, more men and better arms. They did lose battles on occasion, but that was typically due to inept commanders more than anything else.

[House Cambodia]

^ Spot on tugela (although you're referring to the Highlands of Scotland and moorland areas - there are agriculturally productive parts in the Lowlands.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

^ Spot on tugela (although you're referring to the Highlands of Scotland and moorland areas - there are agriculturally productive parts in the Lowlands.

That is why I brought up the altitude thing earlier on. How far above sea level is the average non-mountainous piece of land in the North? We have no idea. If that is already 400-500 meters above sea level then the mountainous regions would be even farther above, making it even less likely that there is good farmland up there.

Until such time as we have topographic maps of the North as well as maps which give information on existing roads or population density there is no evidence for any claims that there is a lot of good farmland up there.

[direpupy]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is why I brought up the altitude thing earlier on. How far above sea level is the average non-mountainous piece of land in the North? We have no idea. If that is already 400-500 meters above sea level then the mountainous regions would be even farther above, making it even less likely that there is good farmland up there.

Until such time as we have topographic maps of the North as well as maps which give information on existing roads or population density there is no evidence for any claims that there is a lot of good farmland up there.

And the flipside of that is that there is also no evidence that ther is no good Farmland up there, the truth is we simply don't know either way.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, direpupy said:

And the flipside of that is that there is also no evidence that ther is no good Farmland up there, the truth is we simply don't know either way.

That is technically correct, but we have pretty strong evidence that the North

- is sparsely populated.

- has no population centers aside from one town and one coastal city.

- has little indication of a lot of traffic/trade occurring on its main road.

- suffers from snow in the summer, greatly crippling any attempts at agriculture wherever that snow is falling.

Any of that is very strong circumstantial evidence that there is not all that much good farmland in the North, 'ripe for the taking'. Especially the latter point is a strong hint that even good farmland in the North wouldn't be good in comparison to similar land down south because of the specific climatic conditions in the North.

One really wonders how the hell the North produces any crops if there are occasional summer snows. Snow only falls when the temperature is below freezing, and if that happens over a longer period of time your crops inevitably die.

I'm also not sure why one would want to insist that he North has good farmland nobody sits on. That is sort of a contradiction because farmland doesn't lie around somewhere. It is wilderness which has to be tamed first before you could plant any crops there.

[direpupy]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is technically correct, but we have pretty strong evidence that the North

- is sparsely populated.

- has no population centers aside from one town and one coastal city.

- has little indication of a lot of traffic/trade occurring on its main road.

- suffers from snow in the summer, greatly crippling any attempts at agriculture wherever that snow is falling.

Any of that is very strong circumstantial evidence that there is not all that much good farmland in the North, 'ripe for the taking'. Especially the latter point is a strong hint that even good farmland in the North wouldn't be good in comparison to similar land down south because of the specific climatic conditions in the North.

One really wonders how the hell the North produces any crops if there are occasional summer snows. Snow only falls when the temperature is below freezing, and if that happens over a longer period of time your crops inevitably die.

I'm also not sure why one would want to insist that he North has good farmland nobody sits on. That is sort of a contradiction because farmland doesn't lie around somewhere. It is wilderness which has to be tamed first before you could plant any crops there.

Well thats where the idea of pastures comes in, land does not have to be good farmland to have animels grazing on it.

Thats wat happened in my country, The Nederlands and more specifically the part known as Holland was extremely unsuited to farming, so we put cows on that land and sold the dairy products and the meat to auwer neighbours in exhange for grain. So i know for a fact that not having good farmland does not mean you don't have valeubale trading goods.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, direpupy said:

Well thats where the idea of pastures comes in, land does not have to be good farmland to have animels grazing on it.

Presumably pastures aren't of any use if there is snow lying on them, no?

1 minute ago, direpupy said:

Thats wat happened in my country, The Nederlands and more specifically the part known as Holland was extremely unsuited to farming, so we put cows on that land and sold the dairy products and the meat to auwer neighbours in exhange for grain. So i know for a fact that not having good farmland does not mean you don't have valeubale trading goods.

That might work for the Netherlands, but the North isn't the Netherlands. There is no hint that they have many cows or are making cheese to export it. I expect some sort of modest domestic trade going on in the various regions of the North (say, the Manderlys selling some of the goods that come to White Harbor to their peers, or the Umbers or Boltons selling grain to the Karstarks in exchange for fish or wood) but there is no hint that there was ever an intricate trade relationship between the North and any outsiders. Not before and not after the Conquest. If that had to be the case then many more Northmen would have settled down in the South or many Southerners aside from the Manderlys would have moved up North. After all, if the land is sort of fertile and you can take possession of a lot of unclaimed land up there then this certainly would open up business opportunities. But nothing of this sort ever happened as far as we know.

[direpupy]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

Presumably pastures aren't of any use if there is snow lying on them, no?

That might work for the Netherlands, but the North isn't the Netherlands. There is no hint that they have many cows or are making cheese to export it. I expect some sort of modest domestic trade going on in the various regions of the North (say, the Manderlys selling some of the goods that come to White Harbor to their peers, or the Umbers or Boltons selling grain to the Karstarks in exchange for fish or wood) but there is no hint that there was ever an intricate trade relationship between the North and any outsiders. Not before and not after the Conquest. If that had to be the case then many more Northmen would have settled down in the South or many Southerners aside from the Manderlys would have moved up North. After all, if the land is sort of fertile and you can take possession of a lot of unclaimed land up there then this certainly would open up business opportunities. But nothing of this sort ever happened as far as we know.

Who says the land is not claimed, and apart from cows you could have sheep and these are mentioned. the Umbers graze there's in the foothills of the mauntains of the mauntain clans.

I think the real problem is that you don't want to admit that you don't know either and that al options are still open. Wich would fit GRRM's writing style if it is not relevant to the story he leaves it out so that he can change his mind latter if he wants to, or if such is neasesary for the story.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Who says the land is not claimed, and apart from cows you could have sheep and these are mentioned. the Umbers graze there's in the foothills of the mauntains of the mauntain clans.

Sure there are sheep and stuff. And there is also cattle, at least near Winterfell (although it is never seen) because beef is actually eater at that castle. I never doubted that. I said that I don't think there is a lot of unclaimed good farmland and I said that I don't buy the idea that there is particular good farmland in the North. I never said there was no farmland up there, no?

5 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I think the real problem is that you don't want to admit that you don't know either and that al options are still open. Wich would fit GRRM's writing style if it is not relevant to the story he leaves it out so that he can change his mind latter if he wants to, or if such is neasesary for the story.

Not knowing isn't the same as having no clue. We have strong clues that there is not particular good farmland in the North, nor is it a particular good place for humans to thrive and multiply. Do you have any arguments to contest that? How do you interpret the summer snows, the non-existent trade on the Kingsroad, the lack of towns and cities, and the fact that the North is generally considered to be sparsely populated?

And please, no ad hoc explanations.