How rich are the Starks pre series

[Jeeves]

On 6/6/2016 at 2:36 PM, Lord Giggles said:

A King's visit is always a concern. First you need to find lodging for them suitable to their social standing, then lodging for their retinue who are going to be in the low hundreds at least. Then you need to find food for them and all their several hundred courtiers and retainers and you can't just fob them off with bread and ale. It's going to need to be the finest meats and wines you can buy and lots of them. Did I mention the number of horses you're going to need to find stable space and feed for? Or the entertainment you'll need to buy(and by entertainment we don't mean just a small group of jesters you bought on the cheap. We're talking things like tournaments here)? The costs all add up.

Even so, I think the Starks still rank near the bottom in terms of family wealth among the Great Houses.  Ranking five of the houses, great and small, I would order them thus:

1. Lannister
2. Tyrell
3. Hightower
4. Frey
5. Redwyne

[thelittledragonthatcould]

10 minutes ago, Heavy D said:

Even so, I think the Starks still rank near the bottom in terms of family wealth among the Great Houses.  Ranking five of the houses, great and small, I would order them thus:

1. Lannister
2. Tyrell
3. Hightower
4. Frey
5. Redwyne

Redwynes are likely richer than the Freys and there is a good chance that the Hightowers are richer than the Tyrells

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Redwynes are likely richer than the Freys and there is a good chance that the Hightowers are richer than the Tyrells

Yeah, there is a good chance that the Hightowers have more wealth than the Tyrells simply because they and the Lannisters are repeatedly cited as the richest houses, not the Tyrells and the Lannisters.

We also know the Hightowers basically remained Kings of Oldtown in all but the name when they gave up their crowns. They retained all their ancient privileges, making it very likely that Highgarden received no or only a token tax from Oldtown, allowing the Hightowers amass an insane amount of wealth over the centuries.

The Tyrells are only up-jumped stewards, basically the goons of the Targaryens overseeing the Reach for them. There is no chance that Aegon granted them the same royal privileges the Gardeners once had. A decent share of the Reach's taxes would go from the Reach to the Crown, not to Highgarden as it did under the Gardeners.

[direpupy]

On 1-7-2016 at 3:35 PM, purple-eyes said:

but D&D also caught that. i guess i am not alone. 

Never sad you where alone just that not everyone would feel like that.

And D&D have changed so much that GRRM has said that the show and books are two different things entirely, so that actually speaks against you.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Never sad you where alone just that not everyone would feel like that.

And D&D have changed so much that GRRM has said that the show and books are two different things entirely, so that actually speaks against you.

show is still based on the book. the background is still the same.

Lannister is still rich no matter in book or show.

[Bright Ancalagon]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

show is still based on the book. the background is still the same.

Lannister is still rich no matter in book or show.

Not really. Although they now have a reasonable amount of money, the source of this comes from loans. So, very soon, in the shows, if not maintained political power, House Lannister will no longer be considered among the richest.

Point is, in this regard, fortune, you can not use the show as a base.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 hours ago, Bright Ancalagon said:

Not really. Although they now have a reasonable amount of money, the source of this comes from loans. So, very soon, in the shows, if not maintained political power, House Lannister will no longer be considered among the richest.

Point is, in this regard, fortune, you can not use the show as a base.

They rule the Westerlands, the richest realm in Westeros. The taxes as Overlords from there alone would make them amongst the richest even if their own Gold mines had actually failed. And then there is them controlling the third largest city in Westeros, which, even without the taxes they collect from their bannermen, would make them amongst the richest in Westeros.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Look, since we all agree that Martin did not run the comparative numbers through a calculator before writing the series, I think the general impression he wanted to create is more pertinent. I think he clearly wanted to portray the South as wealthier, as representing an easier lifestyle with more luxuries and disposable income per capita. However, I highly doubt that translates into the Starks being poor by any stretch of the imagination. They might collect less coppers per capita from their subjects than the Redwynnes or Velaryons, but they have far more of these subjects than any lesser House.

The answer Martin gave about how much higher in status Sansa is than a normal lady makes it clear that the ruling Houses of each region represent the next thing below demi-godlike status in Westeros. And this status - and more importantly the POWER associated with it - must translate to wealth in some form or degree.

So while the Hightowers, Redwynnes and to a lesser extent the Manderlys and Graftons are exceptions to the rule, I reject the notion that the lesser Houses such as the Freys are anywhere near the Starks in terms of wealth and means.

I place the Starks, Arryns, Tullys and Baratheons more or less in the same wealth bracket. With the Lannisters, Hightowers and Tyrells clearly above them. How the Redwynnes, Manderlys, Graftons and Velaryons compare to these 4 Great Houses is up for debate.

I think that is as close as we are going to get to a definitive answer to this.

 

[Lord Varys]

@Free Northman Reborn

Well, we were all always meaning 'poor' in relation to their peers and the other rich lords.

Nobody ever tried to belittle the standing of the Starks in relation to the other great houses. Insofar as power and former royal prestige are concerned they are the equals of the Arryns and Lannisters (and perhaps Hightowers, too, if we want to count them among that elite circle). The Baratheons, Tullys, Tyrells, and Greyjoys are clearly beneath them in that category (due to the fact that they were never true kings) while the Martells might be above them considering that they were allowed to keep their royal title 'Prince' as well as other privileges nobody else got from the Iron Throne.

But this doesn't mean they have to be all that rich. They can even be somewhat impoverished. That doesn't take anything away from them. In fact, it makes them more interesting and their accomplishments much more praiseworthy - especially Robb's successes in war.

In the real world there are many kings and princes who weren't all that rich, either.

Social standing in a society like Westeros does not have to transfer to money. If you have a titles you have title. And if you have a crown you have a crown. Under Robert the Crown is very much in debt yet that doesn't change the fact that Robert is the king and you better do him homage when you are in his presence.

The same certainly goes for the Starks regardless how many assets they have. They are the rulers of the North, after all.

[The Fallen]

There are old houses. There are rich houses. And there are old and rich houses. 

The Westerlings are old and have prestige, but no money. No one, not Tywin nor Cersei nor the Queen of Thornes, views the Starks in that way. Forget about the broken tower. They've built other buildings since then. 

When Cat traveled to King's Landing she wasn't short on cash. She even generously tipped the ship's crew. All the Starks dress nice, taking into account each region's particular style. Ned has hired singers for Sansa whenever they've ventured up north. 

There are small telltale signs that the Starks aren't living paycheck to paycheck. 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

18 minutes ago, The Fallen said:

There are old houses. There are rich houses. And there are old and rich houses. 

The Westerlings are old and have prestige, but no money. No one, not Tywin nor Cersei nor the Queen of Thornes, views the Starks in that way.

Sure some do.

Lord Redwyne laughed. "What is there north of the Neck that any sane man would want? If Greyjoy will trade swords and sails for stone and snow, I say do it, and count ourselves lucky."

and I'm not sure Cersei thinks too much of it either

"Bend the knee and swear fealty to my son, and we shall allow you to step down as Hand and live out your days in the grey waste you call home."

We don't quite know what the Queen of Thorns thinks of it, but we do know that Tywin thinks it worthwhile to offer to Tyrion while he gives Darry to Kevan and Riverrun to Genna. Make of that what you will.

18 minutes ago, The Fallen said:

When Cat traveled to King's Landing she wasn't short on cash. She even generously tipped the ship's crew.

And I think the tell tale sign here is that many other Houses would have their own boats to use for such a journey, not be reliant on others to bring them.

18 minutes ago, The Fallen said:

 

Ned has hired singers for Sansa whenever they've ventured up north. 

While other Houses have singers as retainers.

18 minutes ago, The Fallen said:

There are small telltale signs that the Starks aren't living paycheck to paycheck. 

There are also signs that they have to be frugal as winter is (potentially) very costly

[direpupy]

16 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

show is still based on the book. the background is still the same.

Lannister is still rich no matter in book or show.

Actually they changed some of the background to, so no it is not the same.

In a book discussion the show has no place.

[Tijgy]

14 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

While other Houses have singers as retainers.

Quote

I am not really sure what this has anything to do with wealth?

Once, when she was just a little girl, a wandering singer had stayed with them at Winterfell for half a year. An old man he was, with white hair and windburnt cheeks, but he sang of knights and quests and ladies fair, and Sansa had cried bitter tears when he left them, and begged her father not to let him go. "The man has played us every song he knows thrice over," Lord Eddard told her gently. "I cannot keep him here against his will. You need not weep, though. I promise you, other singers will come."

Nothing of this says anything about the fact the Starks could not pay a singer. There was also not a problem with hiring someone to learn Sansa to play the harp nor with hiring Syrio Forel for Arya. 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

I am not really sure what this has anything to do with wealth?

 

Then why question me and not your fellow Stark fan who brought up employing singers as a sign that the Starks are wealthy?

If employing a singer is pertinent to a families fortunes then Houses that have singers on retainer are wealthier than those that can not convince singers to stay around.

Singers in Westeros live by patronage, either by a Lord/landed knight or by the generosity of audience they can attract. The fact that singers tend to stay away from the North suggests that people are not as generous to them in the North as they are in the South. Take that anyway you want.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Then why question me and not your fellow Stark fan who brought up employing singers as a sign that the Starks are wealthy?

If employing a singer is pertinent to a families fortunes then Houto ses that have singers on retainer are wealthier than those that can not convince singers to stay around.

Singers in Westeros live by patronage, either by a Lord/landed knight or by the generosity of audience they can attract. The fact that singers tend to stay away from the North suggests that people are not as generous to them in the North as they are in the South. Take that anyway you want.

Once again, I think this is not a logical conclusion. The idea that the Starks cannot afford to keep a permanent singer at Winterfell for monetary reasons is fairly preposterous. Remember, singers range in quality from the Royal court bard himself, to some tavern dweller who can entertain a bawdy crowd if they are drunk enough, but could hardly please a more discerning audience.

Now, if the Starks really wanted a singer at Winterfell, they could have paid such a low class entertainer more than he could ever hope to earn from tavern singing down South. But clearly, they did not want to do so. If they can maintain a permanent castle garrison of 200 armed men it is nonsense that they cannot afford to pay the salary of a singer.

It is rather obvious that the reason they could not keep a singer was not due to monetary reasons. In fact, I doubt Martin really thought this plot thread through properly. The idea that the North does not produce any singers out of a population of millions of people is rather ridiculous. In every lord's domain - even down to petty lords - there should be at least one guy who has a decent talent for singing and who would rather live comfortably in the Lord's keep doing that, than grubbing around in the dirt as a peasant.

Heck, even the wildlings have singers - as Mance so aptly demonstrated - and yet Martin wants us to believe that the capital of the North cannot keep one? Nope. This, like Theon capturing Winterfell with 20 pirates, 500 miles from the ocean, is just a plot convenience. In this case intended to play up Sansa's unhappiness in the North, thus further justifying her betrayal of the Starks in the early books.

[Clegane'sPup]

13 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Then why question me and not your fellow Stark fan who brought up employing singers as a sign that the Starks are wealthy?

lol this made me chuckle. Thanks, here's sum eucalyptus leaves for ya.

[Tijgy]

56 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Then why question me and not your fellow Stark fan who brought up employing singers as a sign that the Starks are wealthy?

 

Because you are arguing the reason there was no singer had to do with money while the other one was arguing the Starks were able to pay a singer.

1° There was a singer during six months. So the Starks were at least able to pay for that singer during those six months.

2° The singer left. According to this quote,"Once, when she was just a little girl, a wandering singer had stayed with them at Winterfell for half a year. An old man he was, with white hair and windburnt cheeks, but he sang of knights and quests and ladies fair, and Sansa had cried bitter tears when he left them, and begged her father not to let him go. "The man has played us every song he knows thrice over," Lord Eddard told her gently. "I cannot keep him here against his will. You need not weep, though. I promise you, other singers will come", it had nothing to do with the fact there was not enough money but with the fact the guy wanted to leave because he was there for six months. 

3° Ned had nothing against the fact there would be any other singers. Catelyn invited Marillion to come to Winterfell. So Ned and Cat were able/willing to pay for possible singers. They hired Forel - probably more expensive than a singer. Ned was willing to bring him North. 

4° Marillion said he did not wanted to go North because nothing is there except blizzards, ... Can it not be more plausible they did not want to go North because it is less populated, the castles/... are much farther away than it was about the fact the Starks could not pay him/her?

[Clegane'sPup]

Depends on how person defines wealth. Mayhaps the Starks are not swayed by the frivolous gaudy display. Maybe their focus is on the lower pyramid of food, clothing and shelter due to the harsh weather conditions. Survival. Until Eddard's death the Starks were the powerhouse of the North.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Depends on how person defines wealth. Mayhaps the Starks are not swayed by the frivolous gaudy display. Maybe their focus is on the lower pyramid of food, clothing and shelter due to the harsh weather conditions. Survival. Until Eddard's death the Starks were the powerhouse of the North.

I have to agree with this. Ned was not the flashy type and he even brought in a different commoner every night to eat with so he would know the dealings and issues  regarding the smal folk around him. How many other highbirn, noble or wardens do we hear of doing this? 

[Lord Varys]

18 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Sure some do.

Lord Redwyne laughed. "What is there north of the Neck that any sane man would want? If Greyjoy will trade swords and sails for stone and snow, I say do it, and count ourselves lucky."

That is actually a major blow to the idea that the Manderlys play even remotely in the same league as the really rich merchant lords (like the Redwynes or Hightowers). Paxter would not be that dismissive of the North if White Harbor was important for his own trade or if the Northern wool trade was important for the Realm as a whole, something even the people in the Reach and on the Arbor profited from.

There is no reason to believe that the Starks cannot afford to pay a singer. I think that they can do.

The problem is that lack of singers in the North proves that there is no cultural infrastructure there for singers. And that has to mean that the people (even the lords) cannot afford that kind of entertainment. The Starks and Manderlys certainly could, but that would be it.

We know that singers do not travel north to Winterfell or in the North and we also do not that the North doesn't have any singers, mummers, puppeteers, etc. of its own.

That is very real and important hint that people up there cannot afford this kind of thing.

And don't try to tell me they don't care about such fancy stuff or wouldn't like it. They are human beings who suffer through winters that last for years. They are in severe need of entertainment and recreation. Presumably they have those old midwives like Old Nan to tell them stories in winter and at other times. But there is no courtly culture of singers and the like in the North that is worth mentioning.