How rich are the Starks pre series

[Ruhail]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Then why question me and not your fellow Stark fan who brought up employing singers as a sign that the Starks are wealthy?

If employing a singer is pertinent to a families fortunes then Houses that have singers on retainer are wealthier than those that can not convince singers to stay around.

Singers in Westeros live by patronage, either by a Lord/landed knight or by the generosity of audience they can attract. The fact that singers tend to stay away from the North suggests that people are not as generous to them in the North as they are in the South. Take that anyway you want.

Northern culture is different to Southren culture the end. 

[kissdbyfire]

About the absence of singers and such, the fact that the north is so vast and scantly populated, on top of being so far away from the south/KL also plays a part, imo.

[Darkstream]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This, like Theon capturing Winterfell with 20 pirates, 500 miles from the ocean, is just a plot convenience. 

Plot convenience? I would argue that this was sufficiently set up by the fact that Theon had detailed knowledge of the layout and security of Winterfell due to him growing up there, as well as the fact that the garrison was severely undermanned at the time. It is very plausible that, under these circumstances, Theon and his twenty "pirates" could have taken Winterfell.

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In this case intended to play up Sansa's unhappiness in the North, thus further justifying her betrayal of the Starks in the early books.

I would not consider a mistake, although a selfish and naive one, by a young and impressionable girl to be considered a betrayal. Using this term would imply that she had the willful intent of doing harm to her family, which is simply not true.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is actually a major blow to the idea that the Manderlys play even remotely in the same league as the really rich merchant lords (like the Redwynes or Hightowers). Paxter would not be that dismissive of the North if White Harbor was important for his own trade or if the Northern wool trade was important for the Realm as a whole, something even the people in the Reach and on the Arbor profited from.

There is no reason to believe that the Starks cannot afford to pay a singer. I think that they can do.

The problem is that lack of singers in the North proves that there is no cultural infrastructure there for singers. And that has to mean that the people (even the lords) cannot afford that kind of entertainment. The Starks and Manderlys certainly could, but that would be it.

We know that singers do not travel north to Winterfell or in the North and we also do not that the North doesn't have any singers, mummers, puppeteers, etc. of its own.

That is very real and important hint that people up there cannot afford this kind of thing.

And don't try to tell me they don't care about such fancy stuff or wouldn't like it. They are human beings who suffer through winters that last for years. They are in severe need of entertainment and recreation. Presumably they have those old midwives like Old Nan to tell them stories in winter and at other times. But there is no courtly culture of singers and the like in the North that is worth mentioning.

I think you overplay this statement. More than anything it probably displays the ignorance that Lords at one end of Westeros have about what goes on at the opposite end. The Greatjon in his speech referred to "kings on some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne", back when he crowned Robb King in the North. While Highgarden is indeed a flowery seat, Dorne is a desolate desert. But the Greatjon from way up next to the Wall conflates the two as the same thing.

I doubt Lord Redwynne has ever been to White Harbor. Nor should there be particularly much trade between the Arbor and White Harbor. No one is suggesting that the North supplies wool to all of Westeros. Merely that it produces more than it uses, and exports significant quantities of the product. But these exports would go to Braavos, the Three Sisters and maybe Gulltown and King's Landing. Maybe as far as Pentos at a stretch. But why import wool all the way from the North to the Arbor, if you could source it from much closer locations like the Reach or the Stormlands? I seriously doubt there is anything other than perhaps some exotic furs or pelts that make it from the North all the way down to the Arbor, and then likely via third parties. Direct trade between the two regions is probably non-existent.

Lord Manderly is clearly very, very wealthy. Vaults full of silver. Food and luxury delicacies in abundance - by the barge full, in fact. More heavy horse than any other Lord North of the Neck, when the Boltons alone can likely raise as many heavy horse as the Freys. A city of 50,000 people. The ability to build 50 warships in a year and fortifying an entire city, including a mile long harbor wall with watchtowers every 100 yards without any hint of diminished wealth.

The Hightowers and Redwynne's are clearly in a league of their own, but Manderly is almost certainly the next tier down from them, and far above a House like the Freys.

[Lord Varys]

@Free Northman Reborn

Are you honestly trying to sell me the idea that the man whose wine is known and drunk as far away as Vaes Dothraki doesn't trade with White Harbor and Eastwatch-by-the-Sea? The man who owns the biggest fleet (merchant fleet and war fleet) in Westeros? And that despite the fact that he doesn't control a large city.

That doesn't make any sense.

I agree that the Greatjon has no good knowledge about Dorne and the Reach, and Paxter might lack detailed knowledge about the remote regions of the North but as a merchant lord he must know what the hell of goods the North has to offer. And he dismisses it out of hand. You cannot brush that aside that easily.

And regardless of Manderlys wealth - the point is that Paxter and Mace really don't give a fig about that. It is not important for their wealth to keep them as trading partners which suggests that they are not so important for trade in general. I mean, the fragmentation of the Realm is going to be poison for trade between the regions considering that there will be a lot of new taxes and tolls and stuff.

If the trade of the North and the South were intricately connected then a lot of merchants and traders would have grumbled at this whole Northern independence thing (on both sides of the Neck, actually).

[Free Northman Reborn]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn

Are you honestly trying to sell me the idea that the man whose wine is known and drunk as far away as Vaes Dothraki doesn't trade with White Harbor and Eastwatch-by-the-Sea? The man who owns the biggest fleet (merchant fleet and war fleet) in Westeros? And that despite the fact that he doesn't control a large city.

That doesn't make any sense.

I agree that the Greatjon has no good knowledge about Dorne and the Reach, and Paxter might lack detailed knowledge about the remote regions of the North but as a merchant lord he must know what the hell of goods the North has to offer. And he dismisses it out of hand. You cannot brush that aside that easily.

And regardless of Manderlys wealth - the point is that Paxter and Mace really don't give a fig about that. It is not important for their wealth to keep them as trading partners which suggests that they are not so important for trade in general. I mean, the fragmentation of the Realm is going to be poison for trade between the regions considering that there will be a lot of new taxes and tolls and stuff.

If the trade of the North and the South were intricately connected then a lot of merchants and traders would have grumbled at this whole Northern independence thing (on both sides of the Neck, actually).

Who claimed that there was an intricate trade network in place that would be disrupted by independence? Trade would continue, as it has for thousands of years. Who rules each region doesn't really change what the people there want to buy and sell. It just changes who the taxes get paid to.

As for Paxter. I doubt he would react in a distraught fashion at the sudden loss of Gulltown either. If he exports wine to all the world, then any one region like the North or the Vale must represent maybe 1% of the wine he sells. Besides. We know Tywin's view of merchants, and how it is beneath a lord to be involved in buying and selling stuff. That might well be a general attitude of the Lordly classes. So Paxter no doubt knows broadly who he sells wine to, but I doubt he is intricately involved in the details thereof. His Maesters or merchants or some such functionary will handle that for him. Similarly, if the Arbor were to sink into the Sea tomorrow, I doubt Manderly would know how much of his wool or silver trinkets or furs would now need to find a new market, if any.

EDIT

Also, there is a difference between declaring that there is nothing in a region that you believe you would want, versus saying that that region cannot afford to buy your goods. There might be nothing in Dorne that he would want either, but that doesn't mean that a good few crates of his wine isn't being bought by the Dornish.

It is just that his general impression of Dorne is of one big desert. Same with his impression of the distant North.

[House Cambodia]

13 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Who claimed that there was an intricate trade network in place that would be disrupted by independence? Trade would continue, as it has for thousands of years. Who rules each region doesn't really change what the people there want to buy and sell. It just changes who the taxes get paid to.

Enough about BREXIT already!    

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 minute ago, House Cambodia said:

Enough about BREXIT already!    

Haha.

[MinotaurWarrior]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn

Are you honestly trying to sell me the idea that the man whose wine is known and drunk as far away as Vaes Dothraki doesn't trade with White Harbor and Eastwatch-by-the-Sea? The man who owns the biggest fleet (merchant fleet and war fleet) in Westeros? And that despite the fact that he doesn't control a large city.

That doesn't make any sense.

I agree that the Greatjon has no good knowledge about Dorne and the Reach, and Paxter might lack detailed knowledge about the remote regions of the North but as a merchant lord he must know what the hell of goods the North has to offer. And he dismisses it out of hand. You cannot brush that aside that easily.

And regardless of Manderlys wealth - the point is that Paxter and Mace really don't give a fig about that. It is not important for their wealth to keep them as trading partners which suggests that they are not so important for trade in general. I mean, the fragmentation of the Realm is going to be poison for trade between the regions considering that there will be a lot of new taxes and tolls and stuff.

If the trade of the North and the South were intricately connected then a lot of merchants and traders would have grumbled at this whole Northern independence thing (on both sides of the Neck, actually).

Mansa Musa was one of the richest men alive at his time, with his kingdom being involved in a worldwide network of trade, but from most people's perspectives he came out of absolutely nowhere with his dazzling wealth. China, Rome, and India traded heavily for centuries, with Chinese silks being famed the world over, but real knowledge of each other's realms was very sparse and occasionally ridiculous.

The reason for this was that trade happened through intermediaries and around geographic obstacles. The same holds true in Westeros. Paxter Redwyne has certainly never been to Vaes Dothrak, and he doesn't need to have gone anywhere at all to be a successful Wine Lord - all he has to do, personally, is grow fine wines and put them on boats.

Even for his captains, to go from The Arbor to White Harbor you need to sail the whole way around Westeros, sailing by rivalrous Dorne and passing through King's Landing, the largest market with the highest prices on the continent. I imagine most of Paxter's captains never bother sailing past King's landing, but those that do certainly have no reason to go to White Harbor, regardless of the size of it's economy, because its trade in commodities is monopolized by the Lord who pays for goods at cost (Feudalism) and the technology for manufactured goods is not substantially different in the North than elsewhere.

 

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Mansa Musa was one of the richest men alive at his time, with his kingdom being involved in a worldwide network of trade, but from most people's perspectives he came out of absolutely nowhere with his dazzling wealth. China, Rome, and India traded heavily for centuries, with Chinese silks being famed the world over, but real knowledge of each other's realms was very sparse and occasionally ridiculous.

The reason for this was that trade happened through intermediaries and around geographic obstacles. The same holds true in Westeros. Paxter Redwyne has certainly never been to Vaes Dothrak, and he doesn't need to have gone anywhere at all to be a successful Wine Lord - all he has to do, personally, is grow fine wines and put them on boats.

Even for his captains, to go from The Arbor to White Harbor you need to sail the whole way around Westeros, sailing by rivalrous Dorne and passing through King's Landing, the largest market with the highest prices on the continent. I imagine most of Paxter's captains never bother sailing past King's landing, but those that do certainly have no reason to go to White Harbor, regardless of the size of it's economy, because its trade in commodities is monopolized by the Lord who pays for goods at cost (Feudalism) and the technology for manufactured goods is not substantially different in the North than elsewhere.

I've actually speculated above or elsewhere (don't remember right now) what the Redwyne business actually is.

It may be that there are lords who actually literally do trade (imaginable for the city lords like Hightowers, Lannisters of Lannisport, Graftons, Darklyns/Rykkers, Manderlys, etc.). But that is not so likely. Paxter most likely doesn't grow any wine himself but has his levies and vassals do that. Nor does he actually sell the wine. But it is his wine nonetheless because the Arbor is his.

And - more importantly - the ships which sell the wine to the world are his.

It is quite obvious that a man like Paxter - who actually knows what taxes cut his profits the most (he has Joffrey change that after the Blackwater) would know where his ships were going and where he was making the most profit. The idea that Arborgold is just shipped up to KL and then carried overland to the regions farther north makes no sense. The wine would have to get to Gulltown and the Vale via ship, as it would to the North and to the Wall (although I'm sure there is considerably less profit to be made up there).

And considering that the Redwynes have the largest fleet in Westeros it is just stupid to assume that they don't need it for trade. Considering that they have both trading galleys and war galleys, and most likely use them trade with the far corners of the world (i.e. from Ib to Asshai, basically).

16 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Who claimed that there was an intricate trade network in place that would be disrupted by independence? Trade would continue, as it has for thousands of years. Who rules each region doesn't really change what the people there want to buy and sell. It just changes who the taxes get paid to.

Well, no. Borders mean customs mean bureaucracy mean protective tariffs. That is all poison for trade. Free trade only works if goods can move without much oversight from the state(s).

16 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for Paxter. I doubt he would react in a distraught fashion at the sudden loss of Gulltown either. If he exports wine to all the world, then any one region like the North or the Vale must represent maybe 1% of the wine he sells. Besides. We know Tywin's view of merchants, and how it is beneath a lord to be involved in buying and selling stuff. That might well be a general attitude of the Lordly classes. So Paxter no doubt knows broadly who he sells wine to, but I doubt he is intricately involved in the details thereof. His Maesters or merchants or some such functionary will handle that for him. Similarly, if the Arbor were to sink into the Sea tomorrow, I doubt Manderly would know how much of his wool or silver trinkets or furs would now need to find a new market, if any.

 

The point is just that Paxter actually understands trade. So if there was anything in the North worth keeping that they Southrons liked to buy from them then we can assume that he would have known about that. And considering that the Realm clearly grew together over the centuries the fact that he doesn't give a damn about the North suggests that there is nothing worthwhile up there.

He is not some stupid uneducated fool, after all.

It is effectively the same as if some high-level business man or banker in our world makes a comment about some country and its economic power. Those people usually know what they are talking about.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I've actually speculated above or elsewhere (don't remember right now) what the Redwyne business actually is.

It may be that there are lords who actually literally do trade (imaginable for the city lords like Hightowers, Lannisters of Lannisport, Graftons, Darklyns/Rykkers, Manderlys, etc.). But that is not so likely. Paxter most likely doesn't grow any wine himself but has his levies and vassals do that. Nor does he actually sell the wine. But it is his wine nonetheless because the Arbor is his.

And - more importantly - the ships which sell the wine to the world are his.

It is quite obvious that a man like Paxter - who actually knows what taxes cut his profits the most (he has Joffrey change that after the Blackwater) would know where his ships were going and where he was making the most profit. The idea that Arborgold is just shipped up to KL and then carried overland to the regions farther north makes no sense. The wine would have to get to Gulltown and the Vale via ship, as it would to the North and to the Wall (although I'm sure there is considerably less profit to be made up there).

And considering that the Redwynes have the largest fleet in Westeros it is just stupid to assume that they don't need it for trade. Considering that they have both trading galleys and war galleys, and most likely use them trade with the far corners of the world (i.e. from Ib to Asshai, basically).

Well, no. Borders mean customs mean bureaucracy mean protective tariffs. That is all poison for trade. Free trade only works if goods can move without much oversight from the state(s).

The point is just that Paxter actually understands trade. So if there was anything in the North worth keeping that they Southrons liked to buy from them then we can assume that he would have known about that. And considering that the Realm clearly grew together over the centuries the fact that he doesn't give a damn about the North suggests that there is nothing worthwhile up there.

He is not some stupid uneducated fool, after all.

It is effectively the same as if some high-level business man or banker in our world makes a comment about some country and its economic power. Those people usually know what they are talking about.

 

I think you completely miss the boat. Minotaurwarrior's post above says it better than I could.

You make a vast leap in line with your confirmation bias, based on a careless comment from a Lord living in comfort and warmth in the deepest South. Giving the North to whoever wants it would not mean that Paxter Redwynne could no longer trade with the North. So whether he traded 1% or 10% of his wine with the North, that doesn't mean he wants to live in the "frozen, cold" North. There is indeed nothing he wants there.

If you need to sell 100 sheep to earn the same as one barrel of Arbor Gold there could be 10 million sheep in the North, equating to 100,000 barrels of Arbor Gold in value. Paxter would still make his grandiose statement that he doesn't want a horde of sheep. That doesn't mean that the sheep are not of significant economic value.

[TheSTARKempire]

I would be really glad if anti-north members can really make rational arguments, rather than behaving so stubbornly to present ridiculous ideas like there is no trade in the north, years-long winter makes the starks so poor, etc. making repetitive claims despite what others have pointed out must be so tiring.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

On 04/07/2016 at 5:41 PM, Tijgy said:

Because you are arguing the reason there was no singer had to do with money while the other one was arguing the Starks were able to pay a singer.

I didnt bring up singers, I was responding to someone who did. If singers don't matter either way in this debate then why not inform the people using them as evidence that the Starks can't be poorer than many of the Southern Houses, or that the North is somehow not as poor overall?

On 04/07/2016 at 4:44 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Once again, I think this is not a logical conclusion. The idea that the Starks cannot afford to keep a permanent singer at Winterfell for monetary reasons is fairly preposterous.

Where did I say that? Of course they could, and I'm sure that some previous Stark Lords have done so in the past. But it would be seen as frivolous in the North, money that could be used for better things and for more important times. It would be in pretty poor taste for the Starks to employ a Bard during winter when its people are dying from starvation.  Intelligent Stark rulers would recognize this, idiot Stark rulers would not.

This is what is so tiring about talking to you about the North. It is either the North is the best or at worst the same as their Southern counterparts. They are not allowed to be below average in anything.

Well I hate to break it to you but they are poor in relation to many of the Great Houses/realms. The Starks fall behind the Arryns, Martells, Tullys, Lannisters, Tyrells and whichever dynasty holds the Crownlands. They, their vassals and their people suffer mroe through Winter than any other realm. It costs them and the fact that the Stark words are a reminder of how costly Winter is is testament to this.

And why not argue what I actually wrote instead of making up your own straw man argument. I stated that Houses that could afford to have singers (and other artisans) on retainer are wealthier than the Houses that can not.

On 04/07/2016 at 4:44 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

Remember, singers range in quality from the Royal court bard himself, to some tavern dweller who can entertain a bawdy crowd if they are drunk enough, but could hardly please a more discerning audience.

Again, what has this got to do with my argument?

Singers stay away from the North as they are less likely to make enough to survive. The average Northman has less to give to singers than many of their southern counterparts, thus there is a lack of singers in the North.

On 04/07/2016 at 4:44 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Now, if the Starks really wanted a singer at Winterfell, they could have paid such a low class entertainer more than he could ever hope to earn from tavern singing down South. But clearly, they did not want to do so. If they can maintain a permanent castle garrison of 200 armed men it is nonsense that they cannot afford to pay the salary of a singer.

Well as I pointed out before, Winter probably prevents any vaugely intelligent Stark ruler from using such an expense. Not only could that money be better spent elsewhere but it would also antagonize some of the people of wintertown who have left others to possibly starve to death in the costly winters the North suffers through.

On 04/07/2016 at 4:44 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

It is rather obvious that the reason they could not keep a singer was not due to monetary reasons. In fact, I doubt Martin really thought this plot thread through properly. The idea that the North does not produce any singers out of a population of millions of people is rather ridiculous. In every lord's domain - even down to petty lords - there should be at least one guy who has a decent talent for singing and who would rather live comfortably in the Lord's keep doing that, than grubbing around in the dirt as a peasant.

Poorer countries produce less artists. The North, being a poor country, would produce less artists with less of their lords and rich merchants willing to patronize them.

 

On 04/07/2016 at 6:25 PM, Ruhail said:

Northern culture is different to Southren culture the end. 

Yep, cultures are different often down to how rich/poor they are. The North, struggling with mass starvation every winter, are not going to spend so much on frivolous pastimes.

[Ruhail]

6 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I didnt bring up singers, I was responding to someone who did. If singers don't matter either way in this debate then why not inform the people using them as evidence that the Starks can't be poorer than many of the Southern Houses, or that the North is somehow not as poor overall?

Where did I say that? Of course they could, and I'm sure that some previous Stark Lords have done so in the past. But it would be seen as frivolous in the North, money that could be used for better things and for more important times. It would be in pretty poor taste for the Starks to employ a Bard during winter when its people are dying from starvation.  Intelligent Stark rulers would recognize this, idiot Stark rulers would not.

This is what is so tiring about talking to you about the North. It is either the North is the best or at worst the same as their Southern counterparts. They are not allowed to be below average in anything.

Well I hate to break it to you but they are poor in relation to many of the Great Houses/realms. The Starks fall behind the Arryns, Martells, Tullys, Lannisters, Tyrells and whichever dynasty holds the Crownlands. They, their vassals and their people suffer mroe through Winter than any other realm. It costs them and the fact that the Stark words are a reminder of how costly Winter is is testament to this.

And why not argue what I actually wrote instead of making up your own straw man argument. I stated that Houses that could afford to have singers (and other artisans) on retainer are wealthier than the Houses that can not.

Again, what has this got to do with my argument?

Singers stay away from the North as they are less likely to make enough to survive. The average Northman has less to give to singers than many of their southern counterparts, thus there is a lack of singers in the North.

Well as I pointed out before, Winter probably prevents any vaugely intelligent Stark ruler from using such an expense. Not only could that money be better spent elsewhere but it would also antagonize some of the people of wintertown who have left others to possibly starve to death in the costly winters the North suffers through.

Poorer countries produce less artists. The North, being a poor country, would produce less artists with less of their lords and rich merchants willing to patronize them.

 

Yep, cultures are different often down to how rich/poor they are. The North, struggling with mass starvation every winter, are not going to spend so much on frivolous pastimes.

Did you read the series from a paralell universe? 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

Did you read the series from a paralell universe? 

How so? Feel free to quote what you disagree with and I will gladly discuss it with you in greater depth.

[Free Northman Reborn]

29 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I didnt bring up singers, I was responding to someone who did. If singers don't matter either way in this debate then why not inform the people using them as evidence that the Starks can't be poorer than many of the Southern Houses, or that the North is somehow not as poor overall?

Where did I say that? Of course they could, and I'm sure that some previous Stark Lords have done so in the past. But it would be seen as frivolous in the North, money that could be used for better things and for more important times. It would be in pretty poor taste for the Starks to employ a Bard during winter when its people are dying from starvation.  Intelligent Stark rulers would recognize this, idiot Stark rulers would not.

This is what is so tiring about talking to you about the North. It is either the North is the best or at worst the same as their Southern counterparts. They are not allowed to be below average in anything.

Well I hate to break it to you but they are poor in relation to many of the Great Houses/realms. The Starks fall behind the Arryns, Martells, Tullys, Lannisters, Tyrells and whichever dynasty holds the Crownlands. They, their vassals and their people suffer mroe through Winter than any other realm. It costs them and the fact that the Stark words are a reminder of how costly Winter is is testament to this.

And why not argue what I actually wrote instead of making up your own straw man argument. I stated that Houses that could afford to have singers (and other artisans) on retainer are wealthier than the Houses that can not.

Again, what has this got to do with my argument?

Singers stay away from the North as they are less likely to make enough to survive. The average Northman has less to give to singers than many of their southern counterparts, thus there is a lack of singers in the North.

Well as I pointed out before, Winter probably prevents any vaugely intelligent Stark ruler from using such an expense. Not only could that money be better spent elsewhere but it would also antagonize some of the people of wintertown who have left others to possibly starve to death in the costly winters the North suffers through.

Poorer countries produce less artists. The North, being a poor country, would produce less artists with less of their lords and rich merchants willing to patronize them.

 

Yep, cultures are different often down to how rich/poor they are. The North, struggling with mass starvation every winter, are not going to spend so much on frivolous pastimes.

You seem to be getting a tad worked up over something that doesn't warrant it. And making unsubstantiated statements as a result.

Firstly, I'm not going to debate over whether the average Northern peasant is poorer than the average Southron peasant. A peasant seems pretty poor anywhere in Westeros.

Anyway, if we take a step back, it really gets the debate nowhere when people make sweeping statements based on feelings rather than facts. The fact that poorer countries produce fewer artists than richer countries is one such statement. So what? If the North produces 1 singer in 10 thousand people compared to 1 singer in 1 thousand people in the South that still means the North has hundreds of homegrown singers.

And what can your averge singer be expected to earn in the South? 50 Silvers a month? 100 silvers a month? Certainly I doubt Tom of Sevenstrings earned enough to buy a suit of armor every few months, so it could hardly be more than that, seeing as a suit of armor costs 800 silvers or thereabouts if I recall.

Similarly, what does it cost a Lord to maintain 1 heavy cavalry unit per year? Or a kennel of hunting hounds? Or a Maester? The idea that the hundreds of singers produced in the North cannot be supported by every single Northern lord "because it would not be accepted by his people", is nonsense.

Heck, you could even have part time singers, like Mance Rayder, who sings plenty of beautiful songs North of the Wall. On the topic of Mance Rayder, he is certainly not marvelled at as some great novelty by the assembled men at Winterfell during Dance. It seems singers are in fact not as rare that "Sansa only saw 1 singer in her 13 years of life". And this during a 10 year Northern summer.

Nope. Martin created the singer memory simply to bolster Sansa's longing for the South, in support of her plot arc. It makes no sense whatsoever.

As for your accusations in general. They are misplaced.

I struggle to think of anything in which I have ever proclaimed the North to be the "greatest" at, other than perhaps Winter warfare and surviving cold weather. What I reject is the obsession to portray the North as impoverished compared to the South. The Northern lords are poorer than some southron lords. But they are also richer than some southron lords.

Your statement of fact that the Starks are poorer than the Martells, Tullys and Arryns is far from it. Instead, it is your opinion. So carry on. This debate is always fun.

 

[Ruhail]

26 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You seem to be getting a tad worked up over something that doesn't warrant it. And making unsubstantiated statements as a result.

Firstly, I'm not going to debate over whether the average Northern peasant is poorer than the average Southron peasant. A peasant seems pretty poor anywhere in Westeros.

Anyway, if we take a step back, it really gets the debate nowhere when people make sweeping statements based on feelings rather than facts. The fact that poorer countries produce fewer artists than richer countries is one such statement. So what? If the North produces 1 singer in 10 thousand people compared to 1 singer in 1 thousand people in the South that still means the North has hundreds of homegrown singers.

And what can your averge singer be expected to earn in the South? 50 Silvers a month? 100 silvers a month? Certainly I doubt Tom of Sevenstrings earned enough to buy a suit of armor every few months, so it could hardly be more than that, seeing as a suit of armor costs 800 silvers or thereabouts if I recall.

Similarly, what does it cost a Lord to maintain 1 heavy cavalry unit per year? Or a kennel of hunting hounds? Or a Maester? The idea that the hundreds of singers produced in the North cannot be supported by every single Northern lord "because it would not be accepted by his people", is nonsense.

Heck, you could even have part time singers, like Mance Rayder, who sings plenty of beautiful songs North of the Wall. On the topic of Mance Rayder, he is certainly not marvelled at as some great novelty by the assembled men at Winterfell during Dance. It seems singers are in fact not as rare that "Sansa only saw 1 singer in her 13 years of life". And this during a 10 year Northern summer.

Nope. Martin created the singer memory simply to bolster Sansa's longing for the South, in support of her plot arc. It makes no sense whatsoever.

As for your accusations in general. They are misplaced.

I struggle to think of anything in which I have ever proclaimed the North to be the "greatest" at, other than perhaps Winter warfare and surviving cold weather. What I reject is the obsession to portray the North as impoverished compared to the South. The Northern lords are poorer than some southron lords. But they are also richer than some southron lords.

Your statement of fact that the Starks are poorer than the Martells, Tullys and Arryns is far from it. Instead, it is your opinion. So carry on. This debate is always fun.

 

Thank you for saying what I couldn't be bothered to write.

[Tarellen]

On July 1, 2016 at 2:40 AM, purple-eyes said:

Actually I agree that GRRM did not give much thoughts about the economy of the north or house stark. This is not something he likes to do. But he did occasionally paint the north or Stark as less rich, for example, in the Hand's tourney, the way how Jory dressed in the jousting. Also Ned was like: how can I feed so many people? (House Tyrell never had this concern I bet). Plus Sansa's fancy in beautiful clothes. HBO show apparently made this more clear, look at the outfit of Cat and outfit of Cersei.

So no wonder we got the feeling that North is poor.

Jory's a guard. Why would he have fancy armor?

[Free Northman Reborn]

9 minutes ago, Tarellen said:

Jory's a guard. Why would he have fancy armor?

The whole feeding issue is another one that is just not thought through properly. If you can store enough food to feed you through 5 years of Winter, how can you not have enough food on hand to feed a Royal party numbering a few hundred people at best?

Consider the amount of food Jon sees stored at Castle Black for Winter. Well, Winterfell is larger than Castle Black. Castle Black has 300 people. Winterfell has 200 permanent guards and probably as many non-guardsmen. And during Winter it feeds thousands of people that gather at the Wintertown.

Winterfell should have AT LEAST the storeroom capacity that Castle Black has, and probably significantly more. How on earth do they live through 5 years of Winter if their food stores cannot even last through a Royal visit of a couple of weeks?

Obviously Ned did not mean that he was physically struggling to feed them. He probably just meant that the lavishness of the meals and the quality of the food product would have to be of a significantly higher standard than the plainer fare that Northerners are happy with.

It cannot seriously have been an actual reference to the quantity of food that would be consumed. We know that the standard Northern rule is to store one fifth of your entire Harvest for Winter. Every harvest. For multiple years on end. Winterfell has plenty of food.

But like with the Sansa-singer issue, Martin just used the illustration to juxtapose the frugal lifestyle of the North against the more lavish and decadent lifestyle of the South.

EDIT

Sorry, I quoted you, but I was responding to the post you quoted in your own reply,. which referenced Ned's comment about feeding the Royal party.

[Masha]

3 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I didnt bring up singers, I was responding to someone who did. If singers don't matter either way in this debate then why not inform the people using them as evidence that the Starks can't be poorer than many of the Southern Houses, or that the North is somehow not as poor overall?

Where did I say that? Of course they could, and I'm sure that some previous Stark Lords have done so in the past. But it would be seen as frivolous in the North, money that could be used for better things and for more important times. It would be in pretty poor taste for the Starks to employ a Bard during winter when its people are dying from starvation.  Intelligent Stark rulers would recognize this, idiot Stark rulers would not.

This is what is so tiring about talking to you about the North. It is either the North is the best or at worst the same as their Southern counterparts. They are not allowed to be below average in anything.

Well I hate to break it to you but they are poor in relation to many of the Great Houses/realms. The Starks fall behind the Arryns, Martells, Tullys, Lannisters, Tyrells and whichever dynasty holds the Crownlands. They, their vassals and their people suffer mroe through Winter than any other realm. It costs them and the fact that the Stark words are a reminder of how costly Winter is is testament to this.

And why not argue what I actually wrote instead of making up your own straw man argument. I stated that Houses that could afford to have singers (and other artisans) on retainer are wealthier than the Houses that can not.

Again, what has this got to do with my argument?

Singers stay away from the North as they are less likely to make enough to survive. The average Northman has less to give to singers than many of their southern counterparts, thus there is a lack of singers in the North.

Well as I pointed out before, Winter probably prevents any vaugely intelligent Stark ruler from using such an expense. Not only could that money be better spent elsewhere but it would also antagonize some of the people of wintertown who have left others to possibly starve to death in the costly winters the North suffers through.

Poorer countries produce less artists. The North, being a poor country, would produce less artists with less of their lords and rich merchants willing to patronize them.

 

Yep, cultures are different often down to how rich/poor they are. The North, struggling with mass starvation every winter, are not going to spend so much on frivolous pastimes.

I think your comparison is wrong, I am pretty sure that Starks are considered to be richer than Tully's and probably equal in wealth to Martells and Arryns.

Its just a difference in culture and outlook on life. North is described as having distinctly austere culture, constantly concerned with cold, winter, grimness of life, and futility of romantic notions. They have their own artists and bards, but their songs and artistic expression is different from more decadent South. Obviously, Sansa doesn't like those Grim Northern ballads about Rat Cooks, and kidnapping and murder and everyone dying at the end, she is in love with romantic / chivalry stories and songs obviously coming from Catelyn influence. Its not that they have less artists or have less patrons, but probably its different from what South culture likes.  And when Sansa refers to lack of singers, she refers to lack of Southern singers. And this Starks would consider a frivolous expanse - spending a lot of money to find in a south a southern-style bard to bring to the castle while North is full of perfectly good own bards.

Same with the cloths. Southern nobles can afford to wear silks, and bright color clothes, however, why would Northern houses do so? They can't wear silks even in summers, which are notoriously cold there, they have to wear heavy cotton-type, wool clothes just to be comfortable. And those type of clothes are dull in color and much more plainer looking that bright light silks gowns and southern ladies wear.