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How rich are the Starks pre series


Tarellen

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1 minute ago, Tarellen said:

while yes all the armies of the war of the five kings were raised hastily the reason the stark army was so small was because they were under a time crunch and the north is really damm big. It takes forever to gather all of the levies. 

There was no time crunch for Robb to ask for more troops. To send a raven, after he was declared King and his father executed, to assemble another host. He is aware that the Lannisters are doing so, there is nothing to stop him doing the same.

Similarly there is nothing stopping him doing that when he knows the Ironborn are there (even though he knows many have returned home due to Balon's death) yet he is still pulling out his entire Northern army and expecting the Freys to support him in his bid to retake the North.

While this is not conclusive it does strongly suggest that the North does not have huge  numbers left, otherwise Robb is just an idiot for not once considering to use them. It also makes them look even more dishonorable, that with all these men still at home they sent none to the Wall or Moat Cailin and a pitiful amount to Winterfell when it was captured and Robb's brothers taken prisoner.

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To me it comes down to what percentage of their forces various Northern lords committed to Robb's host.

We see that the Karstarks committed about 2300/2800 = 82%.

For the Umbers it seems difficult to fit a number of more than 1800 into the 12000 men at Winterfell. And if the remaining men are split equally between Mors and Hother, then that means they have around 800 left, meaning they committed 1800/2600 = 70% of their strength to Robb.

But these are two extreme cases. Both Houses who appear to have been overly zealous in their lust for war. We know this due to both struggling to bring in their Harvests as a result, and Alys Karstark's comments to Jon about her father's eagerness for glory and plunder in the South. It is quite clear that not all the Houses were that enthusiastic.

By contrast, the Mountain Clans appear to have sent barely 15% of their strength, as it is difficult to fit more than 500 Clansmen into Robb's 12k men. 

The Dustins state clearly that they sent the minimum number possible.

Skagos sent 0%.

House Manderly sent 1500 men. Even if House Manderly is only at the Frey level of strength, that represents a mere 37% of their strength. But more likely Manderly can raise considerably more men than the Freys, and if we peg him at 6000, then the 1500 was only 25% of their total strength.

So, with these examples we can see that the mobilization rate of the Northern Houses vary widely, between around 80% at the upper end, to as low as 0% for Skagos. The question then becomes what was the average mobilization for the Northern Houses? If it was in the region of 50%, then it means they have at least another 19500 men on top of the 19500 that went with Robb.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Damn it, guys, the talk about the West was supposed to be a reductio ad absurdum. Considering that we only have vague information on events there we could always invent men in places where we have no news about. But that isn't really necessary. Unlike the North the Westerlanders didn't really lose all that many men in the War of the Five Kings. Most of their soldiers returned back home.

They did not, especially not in Renly's case. Tywin/Jaime also seemed to prepare for war pretty quickly after the Tyrion incident. We get reports about Tywin marshaling armies so he presumably began doing that at a certain point rather than having an army doing nothing for a rather long time.

One can make a case that Renly is effectively still marshaling his troops from the moment he began marching from Highgarden but the troops that assembled there would have been there very fast.

That is just an assumption. Torrhen had about eighteen months for this whole thing, from the very moment Aegon's letter reached him, and it was summer. He had no harvests to see to and the time and resources to move his troops in a cost effective way if that was necessary.

There were a lot of lords left in the North who were untouched by the fighting and who could have dealt with the Ironborn - the Ryswells and Lady Dustin, the Flints, the mountain clans, and so on. Yet they all do nothing until Roose and Stannis takes things in their hands.

Jon is telling Stannis how best win the loyalty of the mountain clans. He tells him that they have seen no king for centuries and would gladly outdo each other with their hospitality. It is a shame that we don't see Stannis' visit to the holdfasts of the clansmen and see him interact with them neither in flashback nor in a chapter. I still don't understand what he did to win their trust and support. But whatever he did obviously worked.

Sure, but it means she had only a small guard and Ramsay did not fear any repercussions, etc.

There were about 200 men with the Brave Companions when they took and garrisoned Harrenhal, if I'm not mistaken. Tywin didn't have that many sellswords. There would have been some casualties during the war but not all that many up to this point.

The City Watch of KL numbers 4,400 men after the Blackwater. They hired a lot of men prior to the Blackwater but many of them died so about 4,000-5,000 should be the average strength for the Goldcloaks. The City Watch of Oldtown should not be much smaller, making it likely that the Lannisport City Watch is about 3,000 or so rather than 2,000 combined with the garrison of Casterly Rock.

The Rock could easily house and feed a garrison of 1,000 people, perhaps even more. It is huge castle and most likely houses a huge court with a lot of officials and servants, not to mention many branches of the Lannister family.

Combined with Gawen Westerling's levies with Tywin the Westerlings should control more people. But you already know that, of course.

Again, the absence of Farman levies in the Lannister hosts is important. They might also have their own considerable navy as they did in the past. Considering the might of Redwynes (an island scarcely larger than Fair Isle) I'd not be surprised if they could at least field 5,000 men of their own.

 

If I remember correctly, Jon said "Honour their pride my lord and they'll honour their duty".That seems like it would apply to a Stark as well as Stannis. 

The troops assembled by Tywin wouldn't have needed to be assembled fast as he mustered them before war broke out and while he was going to war over Tyrion, he could afford to take his time raising them. Robb Stark couldn't given the distance he had to travel and the fact that Riverrun is under siege. 

True the Dustins and the Ryswells are left but both of them swear loyalty to Roose very quickly so they can't be trusted, particularly as it's not their lands being touched by the ironborn. 

True it means Ramsay didn't fear reprecussions. Yet more evidence of him having bad judgement as he later gets hunted down by Rodrik Cassel. 

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17 minutes ago, Lord Giggles said:

If I remember correctly, Jon said "Honour their pride my lord and they'll honour their duty".That seems like it would apply to a Stark as well as Stannis. 

The troops assembled by Tywin wouldn't have needed to be assembled fast as he mustered them before war broke out and while he was going to war over Tyrion, he could afford to take his time raising them. Robb Stark couldn't given the distance he had to travel and the fact that Riverrun is under siege. 

True the Dustins and the Ryswells are left but both of them swear loyalty to Roose very quickly so they can't be trusted, particularly as it's not their lands being touched by the ironborn. 

True it means Ramsay didn't fear reprecussions. Yet more evidence of him having bad judgement as he later gets hunted down by Rodrik Cassel. 

In the end, there is a reason why George qualifies the North's strength with the statement that it takes them much longer to raise it, and that Lords are not always willing to release their men during Harvest season. And that reason is that he wants to make it obvious that Robb didn't raise as much of his strength as the southern regions did.

In the end, George says the North can raise a similar number of men to the Vale, but it would take them much longer to do so. We are yet to see how the Vale's strength compares to that of the West, but it seems very likely that their strength is higher than that of the Stormlands, for example, which is specifically singled out as being sparsely populated.

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14 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

There was no time crunch for Robb to ask for more troops. To send a raven, after he was declared King and his father executed, to assemble another host. He is aware that the Lannisters are doing so, there is nothing to stop him doing the same.

Similarly there is nothing stopping him doing that when he knows the Ironborn are there (even though he knows many have returned home due to Balon's death) yet he is still pulling out his entire Northern army and expecting the Freys to support him in his bid to retake the North.

While this is not conclusive it does strongly suggest that the North does not have huge  numbers left, otherwise Robb is just an idiot for not once considering to use them. It also makes them look even more dishonorable, that with all these men still at home they sent none to the Wall or Moat Cailin and a pitiful amount to Winterfell when it was captured and Robb's brothers taken prisoner.

And who would have led these extra men? Rodrik Cassel is dead and the lords of Houses Umber, Bolton and both sons of Wyman Manderly are in the south with Robb and the Karstarks aren't going to support him after he executed Rickard Karstark. There is no one left in the North who commands the kind of respect needed to lead an organized response and the leaders of the Houses worst hit by the Ironborn are all in the south and their heirs are either in the south with them, too young to lead or dead either in the south or beneath the walls of Winterfell by Ramsey's hand. Lady Dustin can't lead troops personally and even if she could it's doubtful if she would given that her loyalty to the Starks is dubious at best and House Ryswell seems to follow her lead when it comes to these things. 

They sent 2000 to Winterfell, 2,600 if we count Ramsey's men. That's more than enough to retake Winterfell when it's occupied by 30 men. 

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5 hours ago, Lord Giggles said:

And who would have led these extra men? Rodrik Cassel is dead and the lords of Houses Umber, Bolton and both sons of Wyman Manderly are in the south with Robb and the Karstarks aren't going to support him after he executed Rickard Karstark.

Robb did not know that Rodrik Cassel was dead when he heard the North was taken and Robb was still intending to turn North with his Northern army

"The last word we had from the north, Ser Rodrik had defeated a force of ironmen near Torrhen's Square, and was assembling a host at Castle Cerwyn to retake Winterfell," said Robb. "By now he may have done it. There has been no news for a long while. And what of the Trident, if I turn north? I can't ask the river lords to abandon their own people."

 

There are other Nobles in the North as well, some we would not have names for but obviously there are people like Wyman and Marlon Manderly, Cley Cerwyn, Leobald Tallhart, Hothor and Mors Umber, Lord Ryswel and his sons and even Howland Reed. If none of those are satisfactory he could have put one of his generals on a boat and entrusted them to raise this hidden 20k army instead of abandoning the North.

5 hours ago, Lord Giggles said:

 

 Lady Dustin can't lead troops personally and even if she could it's doubtful if she would given that her loyalty to the Starks is dubious at best and House Ryswell seems to follow her lead when it comes to these things. 

Was Robb even aware of this?

 

5 hours ago, Lord Giggles said:

They sent 2000 to Winterfell, 2,600 if we count Ramsey's men. That's more than enough to retake Winterfell when it's occupied by 30 men. 

Unless, you know, more Ironborn turned up to help Theon. All it would have took was a couple of hundred to effectively garrison Winterfell.

And Robb clearly felt there was a need as he was still heading North even when he heard about Rodrik as Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte and the coast were also major problems for the North.

7 hours ago, Lord Giggles said:

 

The troops assembled by Tywin wouldn't have needed to be assembled fast as he mustered them before war broke out and while he was going to war over Tyrion, he could afford to take his time raising them. Robb Stark couldn't given the distance he had to travel and the fact that Riverrun is under siege. 

Robb does not know about Riverrun being sieged until he is approaching the Twins. He chooses to leave Riverrun, despite his mother suggesting stays there, is down to a lack of food not the pressing need to leave.

 

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Over the last few pages this has turned into another military strengt tread, i would suggest either a return to the original purpose of this tread or you guys making a new one.

Or just taking this to one of the many treads on this subject that already exist.

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42 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Over the last few pages this has turned into another military strengt tread, i would suggest either a return to the original purpose of this tread or you guys making a new one.

Or just taking this to one of the many treads on this subject that already exist.

Damn. Ok. Back to guessing games about the number of silvers in the Manderly vault.

But you are quite correct. This needs to be taken elsewhere.

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On July 12, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

So in their case it is a sign that the populating increased but in the North's case it cannot be a sign that the population declined? That is special pleading.

Especially in light of the fact that winter is no big deal in the Reach or in the West while it is in the North.

 

Long winters were common in the north even before the conquest. Unless your implying that the north has a constantly decreasing population I don't think the winters are the cause of any long term population decline. 

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House Stark before the war of five kings actually have a significant fortune. Though the north is very populated, since the dance of dragons the Starks have always fought on the wining side and had been handsomely rewarded by Targaryen Kings. After Roberts rebellion, Ned was kicking ass all over Westeros. He subdued the entire reach, I’m sure he received chest of gold and ransoms. I think the two poorest of the great houses would be the baratheons, and greyjoys 

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