How rich are the Starks pre series

[Lord Giggles]

Especially seeing as the Ironborn rarely venture far from the shore, the wildlings virtually never make it past Umber lands and the southerners have never made it past Moat Cailin

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Iona said:

You've convinced me with your post. But - I'd like to counter-argue this particular point by saying that all that chivalry nonsense was not all that hot in the North, they were always a practical kind of folk, so unadorned armor might just be a sign of their mentality, not so much an indication of their wealth.

That sort of cuts both ways. Are the Northmen really not all that into showing off their wealth with fancy armor and weapons and stuff or can't they afford stuff like that?

If I couldn't afford it I'd most likely also try to stay aloof of all that and claim I don't want/need all that fancy stuff.

I mean, the richer Southron knights also know a lot about fighting, tourneys, and armor but the rich guys still buy fancy armor to show it off. If you are part of the club of the rich kids you do that.

If the weather and climate was better in the North and if they had more money they would also throw more tourneys and have more singers and entertainers. But they don't - and there is a reason for that.

[Lord Varys]

@Bright Ancalagon

Considering that you didn't use any arguments I'll just point out that I left out House Towers in my list of the major houses that held Harrenhal. Lord Walter Whent also did not pay alone for the tourney but he must have been very rich still, or else people would never have believed he could throw off such a tourney.

[Knight of the Red Tree]

The Starks certainly didn't have nearly as much gold as the Lannisters, Tyrells, and even lesser houses, but if you think they didn't have enough gold to armor up like buffons, you're streching it too far.

All the North paid tribute to then, including the Manderlys.

[Nittanian]

48 minutes ago, Nevets said:

There are four wardens, one for each point of the compass (East, North, South, and West)  They are essentially for military purposes.

Each region has a Lord Paramount.  These include the North, Westerlands, Riverlands (Trident), etc.  This position is almost invariably hereditary.  The Stark family is the Lord Paramount of the North.  Lannister, Tully, Greyjoy, etc. are other Lords Paramount.

Canonically, "Lord Paramount" has only been applied to realms who had their royal dynasties ended during Aegon's Conquest. Littlefinger is titled "Lord Paramount of the Trident" (not LP of the Riverlands) in the novels. The World of Ice and Fire explains that Aegon the Conqueror named Edmyn Tully the Lord Paramount of the Trident after the burning of Harrenhal and the deaths of Harren Hoare and his sons. Aegon named Orys Baratheon the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, succeeding the Durrandons. Harlan/Harlen Tyrell was named Lord Paramount of the Mander (alternatively Lord Paramount of the Reach) after the deaths of the Gardeners at the Field of Fire.

The dynasties who submitted - Arryns, Lannisters, Starks - have never canonically been called Lords Paramount. The world book says that Aegon allowed the ironborn "to choose their own lord paramount" (lower case), and the Greyjoys have always canonically be called Lords of the Iron Islands, not Lords Paramount of the Iron Islands. The Martells are Princes of Dorne, not Lords Paramount of Dorne.

[Iona]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That sort of cuts both ways. Are the Northmen really not all that into showing off their wealth with fancy armor and weapons and stuff or can't they afford stuff like that?

If I couldn't afford it I'd most likely also try to stay aloof of all that and claim I don't want/need all that fancy stuff.

I mean, the richer Southron knights also know a lot about fighting, tourneys, and armor but the rich guys still buy fancy armor to show it off. If you are part of the club of the rich kids you do that.

If the weather and climate was better in the North and if they had more money they would also throw more tourneys and have more singers and entertainers. But they don't - and there is a reason for that.

Touche. I still remain stubbornly set in the notion that since the Northerners don't have that many knights and never felt the need be Ser this and Ser that, they are by nature a much more humble and no-nonsense kinda guys with no taste for tourneys and all the fancy-prancing in shining outfits.

But true enough, that's most likely due to the fact that they had more important things in mind, like trying to fill their larders for when the winter comes, so any wealth the Starks might have accumulated would be spent on grain and the like, instead of gold leaf and gemstones for a breastplate.

[Free Northman Reborn]

A few points that require a response.

I'm curious. If gold is not mined at all in the North, then by default the only gold that will enter the North will be from the South and from Essos. And the only reason that Southron or Essosi gold will flow into the North will be due to foreign trade. So therefore largely through White Harbor - and perhaps a small amount of overland trade through the Neck.

But remember, foreign trade is a two way street. There is no evidence that the North is necessarily a major net exporter of goods. After all, if every nation is a net exporter then who is everyone exporting to? Someone has to be a net importer. I would imagine for example that the Westerlands could well be a net importer, having a constant trade deficit due to importing food and luxury goods from the Reach and Riverlands, but funding it with gold mined directly from their lands.

So I imagine that in the North's case, they pretty much break even or have a small trade surplus, given that they don't have rich goldmines with which to fund any deficit. So it is not a given that the foreign gold that flows into White Harbor necessarily stays in the North. It may well be used directly to purchase goods from Braavos and other cities, who prefer to trade in gold currency rather than in the larger volumes of silver that would be required for the same value of payment.

In contrast, silver is mined in the North. So when the Karstarks trade with the Umbers, or the Hornwoods trade with the Boltons, it is far more likely that locally mined silver will be the currency of exchange than the small amount of southron gold that has managed to find its away across a thousand miles of Kingsroad to arrive at the Dreadfort or the Last Hearth.

Note that the value of a horse or wagon full of grain traded between two parties remains the same as in the South, but no gold needs to be involved in the transaction. Instead, the more commonly available silver could be used as a currency. Or, if silver is mostly mined around the White Knife region, then large amounts of silver might not even be available in the more remote parts of the North, and instead a barter economy could be in place for the vast majority of transactions in places like the Mountain Clan lands, Bear Island and Skagos. Note that the value of goods produced and traded is no less, it is just a case of currency not being used as frequently to represent the units of goods exchanged.

So I tire of this constant attempt to equate wealth to net reserves of gold or silver in a lord's vault. If the Starks wanted the broken tower repaired, they could have offered a stone mason a year's supply of grain for his family, 30 cows for milk and a score of sheep to produce wool and mutton for the winter. If that equates to 5 gold dragons which would be the stonemason's annual wages in the South, well, that means the Starks have the equivalent amount of wealth to 5 gold dragons to spend on the mason.

To me the amount of gold in a vault is meaningless. What we want to compare is the total amount of goods produced in a kingdom, compared to that in another kingdom. The GDP of each kingdom in modern terminology. And in that I think the North ranks well above Dorne, the Stormlands and the Iron Isles, and more or less on a par with the Vale. The Reach ranks way at the top, with the Westerlands probably leapfrogging the Riverlands due to their gold production. Otherwise the Riverlands would be in second place.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

2 hours ago, John Doe said:

If land mass equaled wealth Putin would be the richest guy on earth. 

True, but on the basis that every house has the same mining\agriculture mindset, the North is huge for the taking and unlike the stormlands the weather is harsh but acceptable for crops...

At least it gives me that idea

[Winter's Cold]

At the start of the series, the only houses unquestionably wealthier are the Lannisters, Tyrells, Hightowers, Redwynes, Tullies and Manderlies. They're definitely wealthier than the Baratheons, Greyjoys and Martells. The Vale of Arryn is more densely populated but they have much less available land. Since we know that the gift is agriculturally viable then it makes sense to assume that most of the North that's not covered in forest can be farmed as well. That's why I'm unsure whether the Arryns are wealthier.

The Starks are more fiscally conservative than other houses due to the harsh winters that North experiences. They are also one of most isolated Great Houses so they don't feel the need to impress anyone besides their own vassals who similarly have to save for the Northern winters. 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Just now, Winter's Cold said:

At the start of the series, the only houses unquestionably wealthier are the Lannisters, Tyrells, Hightowers, Redwynes, Tullies and Manderlies. They're definitely wealthier than the Baratheons, Greyjoys and Martells. The Vale of Arryn is more densely populated but they have much less available land. Since we know that the gift is agriculturally viable then it makes sense to assume that most of the North that's not covered in forest can be farmed as well. That's why I'm unsure whether the Arryns are wealthier.

The Starks are more fiscally conservative than other houses due to the harsh winters that North experiences. They are also one of most isolated Great Houses so they don't feel the need to impress anyone besides their own vassals who similarly have to save for the Northern winters. 

 

To add to that, if your House words are : "Winter is coming" then I think it is fair to say that austerity lies at the heart of your worldview. Lavish spending will not be part of your psychological setup.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

14 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

At the start of the series, the only houses unquestionably wealthier are the Lannisters, Tyrells, Hightowers, Redwynes, Tullies and Manderlies. They're definitely wealthier than the Martells.

I'm not sure of that. Sunspear and the Water Gardens seem far more opulent than Winterfell (with its broken down Tower) while the Martells boast three Maesters in their service while Oberyn was able to bring a much grander party when he came to court than Ned did. Dorne seems to export more of their goods and has closer relations to the free cities.

The Martells seem far more cash rich than the Starks.

14 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

The Vale of Arryn is more densely populated but they have much less available land. Since we know that the gift is agriculturally viable then it makes sense to assume that most of the North that's not covered in forest can be farmed as well. That's why I'm unsure whether the Arryns are wealthier.

There is a difference between land that can be farmed and good farm land. The Vale (proper) within the Vale is described as being one of the most fertile places outside of the Reach while Gulltown is slightly bigger than White Harbor.

I'm not sure there is much in it, but I think the Arryns have the edge if only for the fact that winter would hit them a little after the North and end a little sooner.

[Free Northman Reborn]

14 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I'm not sure of that. Sunspear and the Water Gardens seem far more opulent than Winterfell (with its broken down Tower) while the Martells boast three Maesters in their service while Oberyn was able to bring a much grander party when he came to court than Ned did. Dorne seems to export more of their goods and has closer relations to the free cities.

The Martells seem far more cash rich than the Starks.

There is a difference between land that can be farmed and good farm land. The Vale (proper) within the Vale is described as being one of the most fertile places outside of the Reach while Gulltown is slightly bigger than White Harbor.

I'm not sure there is much in it, but I think the Arryns have the edge if only for the fact that winter would hit them a little after the North and end a little sooner.

I would say that the Arryns could produce more excess, exportable agricultural products than the North, by virtue of the high density and relatively small surface area of their highly fertile land. So excess food produced in the Vale can be easily gathered together, and the amount not needed for local storage can be transported to Gultown for easy export.

By contrast, even though the North most likely can produce more food overall - considering the vastly larger area of farmland they have - the production per square mile of farmland is much lower, so it requires more land to be tilled, worked and harvested to produce the same amount of food as the Vale could on a smaller surface area. So more manpower is required per unit of food produced, therefore more of the food gets eaten by the labour force, and therefore a smaller percentage is available for storage and/or trade.

And then even the percentage that is available for trade needs to be transported over such an ungodly distance to get it to a market town or export point, that the whole endeavour becomes pointless. So in short, I would imagine that the North likely has 20  times the agricultural land area of the Vale. And probably has a total agricultural production quanity maybe 2, 3 or even 5 times that of the Vale. But far more of that gets consumed to feed the (larger) labour force during the production process, and that which remains is too distant from any practical export point to be used as a trade good.

That is why I think the North can have a total population of twice that of the Vale, while still having armies and net resources that are more or less on a par with them.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I would say that the Arryns could produce more excess, exportable agricultural products than the North, by virtue of the high density and relatively small surface area of their highly fertile land. So excess food produced in the Vale can be easily gathered together, and the amount not needed for local storage can be transported to Gultown for easy export.

By contrast, even though the North most likely can produce more food overall - considering the vastly larger area of farmland they have - the production per square mile of farmland is much lower, so it requires more land to be tilled, worked and harvested to produce the same amount of food as the Vale could on a smaller surface area. So more manpower is required per unit of food produced, therefore more of the food gets eaten by the labour force, and therefore a smaller percentage is available for storage and/or trade.

And then even the percentage that is available for trade, needs to be transported over such an ungodly distance to get it to a market town or export point, that the whole endeavour becomes pointless. So in short, I would imagine that the North likely has 20 or 30 times the agricultural land area of the Vale. And probably has a total agricultural production quanity maybe2 or 3 times that of the Vale. But far more of that gets consumed to feed the (larger) labour force during the production process, and that which remains is too distant from any practical export point that to be used as a trade good.

That is why I think the North can have a total population of twice that of the Vale, while still having armies and net resources that are more or less on a par with them.

Sure, that could well be the case. I'm not sold on it, but it is certainly plausible.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Sure, that could well be the case. I'm not sold on it, but it is certainly plausible.

It would also explain why the North can plausibly be out of able bodied men (in some areas), when we know that 1% of even 2% of the population being mobilized for war cannot make any meaningful dent in your able bodied male population. But if in the North you need 90% of your able bodied men to work the land, or else face starvation in Winter, then it makes sense that if even 10% of your able bodied men are lost to war (that's about 1% to 1.5% of the total population by the way), then your harvest starts being affected. Which would mean that you would rather start sending your old men and boys to war, and keep your stronger men bringing in the harvest while there is still time.

 

[Lord Varys]

@Free Northman Reborn

The lack of gold mines in the North [by the way: somebody should check those maps in TWoIaF - there are goods that the various regions produce; that could help making educated guesses] doesn't mean no gold dragons exist in the North. If there is trade that is not conducted in kind there will be coin. And coin is minted exclusively by the Iron Throne which we learn in TMK (where it is revealed that Daemon Blackfyre also produced coin of his own).

The gold mines of the Lords of the West are important because having access to gold means you can mine it and store it in your vaults, making you insanely rich regardless whether you make it into coins or bars or jewelry. If the Starks had their own mines where they could get precious metal from they would be richer independent from any tax revenues they make. And you could, most likely, easily exchange raw silver for gold dragons or something like that. That should work. However the emphasize on silver in the Stark vaults suggests that they don't have any gold in there, neither dragons nor gold in other shapes. That could be a hint that there is so little trade done in the North that gold dragons are actually uncommon (and thus it would make little sense for the Starks to hoard dragons in their vaults if they can't when they pay their people or buy themselves some stuff).

The West is fertile enough to not be dependent on food imports. They are scarcely less populous than the Reach, and should thus be able to feed their own smallfolk. The lords are not going to buy food to keep their peasants alive, after all. They live off the crops their tenants produce. That's what nobility does.

Thinking about that: We cannot say that the lords do all that much trade, not even the Redwynes. The lords all live off the trade their commoners do (and in the Redwyne case they most likely also control it because the peasants and farmers would produce the wine but the Redwyne fleet would export it across the world - and most likely demand a large fee for that from whatever local wine producers live on the Arbor), and they collect their shares, but they do not buy or sell food or other goods themselves. That's what the lower classes are for. The aristocracy just rules and does nothing besides having fun.

In that sense even city lords like the Manderlys and Graftons don't do any trade but rather live off it, making it possible that certain commoners within in their walls actually are richer in coin and gold than they are (because their profits minus taxes are simply so immense).

As to trade in general to me it seems that the North is basically thriving on subsistence economy. Certain mountain clans and the Bear Islanders seem to live off fishing, scarcely a trade to make any money from. The same goes for the Stony Shore folk, presumably, and all the other people living in coastal regions both east and west. One actually wonders how many taxes those people can pay, and it what kind? Sending fishes to the Iron Throne or Winterfell seems pretty impractical. Whatever farmers there are most likely produce scarcely more crops than they can themselves eat. The North would be rich in game, of course, but we don't know if that's a resource the average commoner is allowed to exploit (we know that poaching is a crime and gets you to the Wall).

I'm also not sure what kind of food is easy to trade with, but that's one of the points that tears at the realism of this series - five or six years winter nobody could survive in a medieval society. The food would not only run out but whatever they could store would go bad long before spring returned.

The price of a cart of grain would be completely different in the Reach and in the North. The Reach has plenty of food which means food should be insanely cheap (especially stuff you cannot store - especially not in high temperatures -  like fruits and the like) whereas the same stuff would be much more expensive in the North because food there should be scarcer even in summer (and in winter it would be much more expensive in the North but still affordable in the Reach because they simply have more down there).

Whether masons or armorers or craftsmen work for kind isn't clear at all. I doubt that. Even in the North. There are traits that earn you coin, and you can buy those services by offering them food. Especially not if they have no place to store it.

In general on taxation:

We know that the Iron Throne directly collects its taxes from lords and commoners alike. There are tax collectors in Gulltown, most likely directly charging people, and the Crown was also collecting certain taxes directly from Lord Redwyne on the Arbor (until King Joffrey granted him a tax exemption that made him very happy indeed). We should therefore assume that the royal bureaucracy actually collects coin from the places where coin is to gained (that would be the big harbors and cities of the Realm).

The idea that tax money from Gulltown or White Harbor would first go to the Eyrie/Winterfell and then from there to KL makes little sense to me. Especially since we know that Dorne was granted the freedom to decide whatever taxes it would pay the Iron Throne without oversight from KL. The Martells have thus special privileges the other houses lack.

Thinking about how taxation stuff could work one wonders whether the maesters have something to do with that. They might be sworn to correctly inform the Crown on how much taxes can be collected in this or that castle.

[oopeed]

The Starks have ginormous lands and thus all the taxes and tithes from them; the North ain't the most bountiful place but still large enough to matter. They have a huge castle that is self-sustainable with greenhouses and hot springs even on the harshest winters. All of them dress in fine skins to keep themselves warm... So yes, they're filthy rich.

They may not have the gold that Lannisters have or the bountiful lands of the Tyrells and Tullys, or a crossing or port they can tax like Freys or Manderlys, but they're the Starks, a name that reigns over people even if its attached to a fake. They can order their vassals to build them an entire fleet of warships, help raise an army even if they had recently lost another in the south, give away huge chunks of land on a whim, and even in the brink of extinction seem to have everything to come back and win so much they will get tired of always winning... The Stark name has a power that only the Lannisters can match in westeros, and power is more important than gold and silver.

 

On 3/6/2016 at 2:14 PM, Stoned_Heart said:

They have since squandered all their wealth in paying off people they have wronged and in unsuccessful series of attempts at the throne.

Wait, what? When the Starks wrong someone they don't pay up, they go to war with an army of loyal men behind them (Robert's Rebellion and the war of five kings being the most recent examples)... And what failed attempts at the throne you speak about?

5 hours ago, Duncan I Targaryen said:

Winterfell seems kind of dumpy for a Lord Paramount's keep compared to what we've seen of The Vale, Riverrun, Dragonstone, and heck even Horn Hill for that matter. Yes I know that Winterfell is essentially in the Alaska of Westeros but I'd still expect something a bit nicer for the capital of one of the 7 kingdoms.

 A castle with effective internal heating using pipes inside the walls carrying water and steam from the hot springs, double walls, greenhouses, a mini-forest inside the walls and even a small town around is lumpy? There's a reason why the Starks can hole up for a long winter in their home while the Arryns must leave theirs in autumn, and that's wonderful design. The architect of Winterfell was most likely a genius.

[Free Northman Reborn]

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn

The lack of gold mines in the North [by the way: somebody should check those maps in TWoIaF - there are goods that the various regions produce; that could help making educated guesses] doesn't mean no gold dragons exist in the North. If there is trade that is not conducted in kind there will be coin. And coin is minted exclusively by the Iron Throne which we learn in TMK (where it is revealed that Daemon Blackfyre also produced coin of his own).

The gold mines of the Lords of the West are important because having access to gold means you can mine it and store it in your vaults, making you insanely rich regardless whether you make it into coins or bars or jewelry. If the Starks had their own mines where they could get precious metal from they would be richer independent from any tax revenues they make. And you could, most likely, easily exchange raw silver for gold dragons or something like that. That should work. However the emphasize on silver in the Stark vaults suggests that they don't have any gold in there, neither dragons nor gold in other shapes. That could be a hint that there is so little trade done in the North that gold dragons are actually uncommon (and thus it would make little sense for the Starks to hoard dragons in their vaults if they can't when they pay their people or buy themselves some stuff).

The West is fertile enough to not be dependent on food imports. They are scarcely less populous than the Reach, and should thus be able to feed their own smallfolk. The lords are not going to buy food to keep their peasants alive, after all. They live off the crops their tenants produce. That's what nobility does.

Thinking about that: We cannot say that the lords do all that much trade, not even the Redwynes. The lords all live off the trade their commoners do (and in the Redwyne case they most likely also control it because the peasants and farmers would produce the wine but the Redwyne fleet would export it across the world - and most likely demand a large fee for that from whatever local wine producers live on the Arbor), and they collect their shares, but they do not buy or sell food or other goods themselves. That's what the lower classes are for. The aristocracy just rules and does nothing besides having fun.

In that sense even city lords like the Manderlys and Graftons don't do any trade but rather live off it, making it possible that certain commoners within in their walls actually are richer in coin and gold than they are (because their profits minus taxes are simply so immense).

As to trade in general to me it seems that the North is basically thriving on subsistence economy. Certain mountain clans and the Bear Islanders seem to live off fishing, scarcely a trade to make any money from. The same goes for the Stony Shore folk, presumably, and all the other people living in coastal regions both east and west. One actually wonders how many taxes those people can pay, and it what kind? Sending fishes to the Iron Throne or Winterfell seems pretty impractical. Whatever farmers there are most likely produce scarcely more crops than they can themselves eat. The North would be rich in game, of course, but we don't know if that's a resource the average commoner is allowed to exploit (we know that poaching is a crime and gets you to the Wall).

I'm also not sure what kind of food is easy to trade with, but that's one of the points that tears at the realism of this series - five or six years winter nobody could survive in a medieval society. The food would not only run out but whatever they could store would go bad long before spring returned.

The price of a cart of grain would be completely different in the Reach and in the North. The Reach has plenty of food which means food should be insanely cheap (especially stuff you cannot store - especially not in high temperatures -  like fruits and the like) whereas the same stuff would be much more expensive in the North because food there should be scarcer even in summer (and in winter it would be much more expensive in the North but still affordable in the Reach because they simply have more down there).

Whether masons or armorers or craftsmen work for kind isn't clear at all. I doubt that. Even in the North. There are traits that earn you coin, and you can buy those services by offering them food. Especially not if they have no place to store it.

In general on taxation:

We know that the Iron Throne directly collects its taxes from lords and commoners alike. There are tax collectors in Gulltown, most likely directly charging people, and the Crown was also collecting certain taxes directly from Lord Redwyne on the Arbor (until King Joffrey granted him a tax exemption that made him very happy indeed). We should therefore assume that the royal bureaucracy actually collects coin from the places where coin is to gained (that would be the big harbors and cities of the Realm).

The idea that tax money from Gulltown or White Harbor would first go to the Eyrie/Winterfell and then from there to KL makes little sense to me. Especially since we know that Dorne was granted the freedom to decide whatever taxes it would pay the Iron Throne without oversight from KL. The Martells have thus special privileges the other houses lack.

Thinking about how taxation stuff could work one wonders whether the maesters have something to do with that. They might be sworn to correctly inform the Crown on how much taxes can be collected in this or that castle.

Well I like where this is going at last.

The entire idea of inter-regional trade in basic foodstuffs seems a bit far fetched, given the technology level and infrastructure of the time. Indeed, people generally live off the food grown on their lands. Big cities may import food from surrounding lands or even by ship, but that's about it.

As for the lords. At last, we can acknowledge that medieval lords were first and foremost landowners. That's what they cared about. Owning larger and larger estates. They then allowed smallfolk and common merchants to make use of the produce of their lands to engage in trade activities. But the lords were unlikely to be traders themselves. I think it was Tywin who had scolded Tyrion for thinking like a merchant, at one point. That was seen as beneath a great lord.

So in short, to a lord wealth means land. And smallfolk to work it. Trade is of far less importance. And this is kind of understandable if you consider the difficulty for a lord in the middle of the North, for example, to transport goods to the nearest trade port.

As for the silver and gold issue, I think you make too much of it. If a gold dragon is worth 200 silver stags, then it makes no matter whether the Starks have 100,000 silver stags or 500 gold dragons in their vaults. It equates to the same amount of money. Unless you are suggesting that they have less than 200 stags, which is the only scenario where they would be too poor to have any gold in their vaults.

The reference to silver is probably just because silver is a more liquid currency to trade in, as the need for gold is so much less frequent.

And besides, we know Martin isn't too good with this stuff. Sandor Clegane had 60,000 gold dragons on his pack mule. That equates to 12 million silver stags. Somehow I doubt Martin is doing these calculations before writing a scene. In fact, given his excessive love of alliteration, it could have been something as simple as him liking the sound of a bag of "Stark silver", simply because of the alliteration in the phrase. We are never told that there is no gold in the vault. And, as I said, unless their silver amounts to less than 200 Stags, a gold dragon should not be unaffordable to them.

As for Manderly, he does not say his vaults are full of silver stags. He says his vaults are full of silver. Which we know is mined in his lands. So, if, as you state, all coins are minted in King's Landing, and we know this also from Davos seeing the old, now defunct Northern Mint in White Harbor, then Manderly might well be hoarding solid bars of refined silver ore in his vaults, delaying the need to have them minted and possibly devalued by the crown taking their cut from the process.

That would explain why Manderly refers to silver rather than gold in his vaults. Because again, if you rule a city of tens of thousands, can build 50 ships and still have vaults full of silver, and in fact, merely the reality that you have vaults full of silver, means that you have the equivalent of many thousands of gold dragons in your hoard. So if it is in the medium of silver, it is so for a reason. It is not because you cannot afford to transform it into the equivalent value of gold dragons.

[Lord Varys]

@Free Northman Reborn

Honestly, we have no clue how this whole minting system works. There should be mines and mints directly overseen by the Crown or else everybody could (and would) just steal the gold and silver (or cheat on the Crown).

Land is what a lord usually lives off. But that doesn't mean he is wealthy. If there are only sheep herders living on his land who pay their taxes in wool then he shouldn't even be able to maintain his keep. Revenue for both the lord and the Crown should come from trade and business transactions conducted on your lands. Which usually would mean villages and towns. Where people can meet and barter and lords grew rich by collecting their share. If we assume they get such a big share off that stuff. I mean, if the Crown collects, who is exploiting the average poor lord? Is he paying taxes to his direct liege, the liege's liege, and then also to the king? Real world middle ages had such concepts, but the people paying there usually were the commoners.

The only places in the North where this seems to be work, in a fashion, would be Barrowton and White Harbor. The only other town we know is the Winter Town, that's it. Castles are also sort of 'cultural centers' in a sense where you find maesters, and armorers, cooks, and perhaps some craftsmen (i.e. people who actually have a profession). But we see how pitiful a castle Winterfell is on the cultural level. Nothing is going on there, and that's the biggest castle in the North. Aside from White Harbor every other place in the North should be worse. You shouldn't need much coin to make yourself a living up there.

Perhaps there is also some trading done in the bigger villages but I'm really at a loss what the people would buy there with coin. Animals, tools, saddles, clothing, etc. they could all gain by bartering (or by making the stuff themselves). Food they grow on their fields or they fish in the sea (or at Long Lake or in the White Knife).

And I never said there was no gold in the vaults of Winterfell. I said that it is a hint that the Starks are not particularly rich and actually the poorest great lords (and perhaps even poorer than some smaller lords) because neither their vassals nor their smallfolk is particularly rich. If George wanted us to get the impression that the Starks were rich there wouldn't have been a broken tower in Winterfell, Ned would have thrown a huge feast and tourney upon Robert's arrival, and would also have thrown lavish gifts at the royal family. And he would have mentioned that there was a lot of gold in the vaults of the Starks.

Come to think of it: Not only was the Broken Tower never repaired or torn down (a potentially dangerous place - if the tower collapsed completely it could kill a bunch of people!) but there was also no attempt made to rebuild the library tower, either, after it burned down early on in AGoT. The same goes for the Lord Commander's Tower at Castle Black - but there it is obvious that the Watch cannot afford that this is done. Why don't we assume the same for Winterfell?

By the way, I checked the maps in TWoIaF:

The North has lumber as its own good, presumably something they can export. The Riverlands cattle, the Iron Islands iron and tin, the West silver and gold, the Reach wine and grain, the Stormlands lumber and amber, and Dorne olives.

Amber could make the Stormlands actually considerably wealthy.

[Florina Laufeyson]

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

A few points that require a response.

I'm curious. If gold is not mined at all in the North, then by default the only gold that will enter the North will be from the South and from Essos. And the only reason that Southron or Essosi gold will flow into the North will be due to foreign trade. So therefore largely through White Harbor - and perhaps a small amount of overland trade through the Neck.

But remember, foreign trade is a two way street. There is no evidence that the North is necessarily a major net exporter of goods. After all, if every nation is a net exporter then who is everyone exporting to? Someone has to be a net importer. I would imagine for example that the Westerlands could well be a net importer, having a constant trade deficit due to importing food and luxury goods from the Reach and Riverlands, but funding it with gold mined directly from their lands.

So I imagine that in the North's case, they pretty much break even or have a small trade surplus, given that they don't have rich goldmines with which to fund any deficit. So it is not a given that the foreign gold that flows into White Harbor necessarily stays in the North. It may well be used directly to purchase goods from Braavos and other cities, who prefer to trade in gold currency rather than in the larger volumes of silver that would be required for the same value of payment.

In contrast, silver is mined in the North. So when the Karstarks trade with the Umbers, or the Hornwoods trade with the Boltons, it is far more likely that locally mined silver will be the currency of exchange than the small amount of southron gold that has managed to find its away across a thousand miles of Kingsroad to arrive at the Dreadfort or the Last Hearth.

Note that the value of a horse or wagon full of grain traded between two parties remains the same as in the South, but no gold needs to be involved in the transaction. Instead, the more commonly available silver could be used as a currency. Or, if silver is mostly mined around the White Knife region, then large amounts of silver might not even be available in the more remote parts of the North, and instead a barter economy could be in place for the vast majority of transactions in places like the Mountain Clan lands, Bear Island and Skagos. Note that the value of goods produced and traded is no less, it is just a case of currency not being used as frequently to represent the units of goods exchanged.

So I tire of this constant attempt to equate wealth to net reserves of gold or silver in a lord's vault. If the Starks wanted the broken tower repaired, they could have offered a stone mason a year's supply of grain for his family, 30 cows for milk and a score of sheep to produce wool and mutton for the winter. If that equates to 5 gold dragons which would be the stonemason's annual wages in the South, well, that means the Starks have the equivalent amount of wealth to 5 gold dragons to spend on the mason.

To me the amount of gold in a vault is meaningless. What we want to compare is the total amount of goods produced in a kingdom, compared to that in another kingdom. The GDP of each kingdom in modern terminology. And in that I think the North ranks well above Dorne, the Stormlands and the Iron Isles, and more or less on a par with the Vale. The Reach ranks way at the top, with the Westerlands probably leapfrogging the Riverlands due to their gold production. Otherwise the Riverlands would be in second place.

 

Yooo i like the cut of your jib in this whole discussion. I have to chime in with  and that a lot of people are ignoring the barter system a great deal when it comes to how the North deals with things. Theres a reason why so many Houses are so loyal to the Starks....

[Daendrew]

8 hours ago, John Doe said:

If land mass equaled wealth Putin would be the richest guy on earth. 

Putin is the richest man in the history of the world. Richer than Ghenghis Khan. 

He is worth 70-220 billion dollars. 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6889603/Is-Vladimir-Putin-secretly-the-richest-man-in-the-world-Russian-president-said-to-have-a-hidden-140bn-fortune-as-it-is-claimed-Roman-Abramovich-gave-him-a-25m-yacht.html

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/02/20/is-vladimir-putin-hiding-a-200-billion-fortune-and-if-so-does-it-matter/