Arya vs. the Waif

[tugela]

Regarding the stabbing, the waif was going at it like an excited puppy and savoring the moment. There would not have been enough force for a really deep wound. Also, chances are that Arya had a good few layers of leather padding on, so while the blade might have penetrated to the skin, the wounds themselves were just superficial. There would have been blood, discomfort for Arya, but not much else. That would explain how she was able to continue running around afterwards.

[Good Guy Garlan]

2 minutes ago, tugela said:

Regarding the stabbing, the waif was going at it like an excited puppy and savoring the moment. There would not have been enough force for a really deep wound. Also, chances are that Arya had a good few layers of leather padding on, so while the blade might have penetrated to the skin, the wounds themselves were just superficial. There would have been blood, discomfort for Arya, but not much else. That would explain how she was able to continue running around afterwards.

The Waif twisted the knife, how is that superficial? 

[hallam]

31 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

The Waif twisted the knife, how is that superficial? 

It was a very narrow blade. Twisting wouldn't do much.

[Illiterati]

2 hours ago, hallam said:

 

She only did it twice and it might be to stop the FM using it as a face.

 

We'll see with her next hit.  I'll be watching for it with interest.

[Illiterati]

It also occurred to me that the show didn't note Crane's face on the wall.  Perhaps because that wasn't important to the story, but it is possible that Arya is leaving the House with a Faceless Men Starter Kit as a parting gift?

[Good Guy Garlan]

5 minutes ago, hallam said:

It was a very narrow blade. Twisting wouldn't do much.

It sure as hell wasn't superficial, though. 

[Darkstream]

So let's suppose that I was able to get past the countless moments of suspension of disbelief needed to arrive at the point where Arya Wolverine slashes out the candle. Wouldn't the Waif also have the ability to fight in the dark as she is herself a faceless man and was the one that actually trained Arya in these skills. Arya has not been shown to have any warging abilities in the show, so how was this an advantage for her? 

[tugela]

57 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

The Waif twisted the knife, how is that superficial? 

Twisted in leather wouldn't do much. It would still be a superficial wound. Doesn't change the fact that she would have difficulty generating much force from the direction she was stabbing from, even less so if Arya was wearing leather. The wounds Arya received would have been shallow. She would have bled, yes. She would have been in discomfort and probably scared, yes. She received a mortal wound, no.

The waif was obviously taken up in the excitement of the moment, and probably did not realize that she was not doing all that much damage.

[tugela]

10 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

So let's suppose that I was able to get past the countless moments of suspension of disbelief needed to arrive at the point where Arya Wolverine slashes out the candle. Wouldn't the Waif also have the ability to fight in the dark as she is herself a faceless man and was the one that actually trained Arya in these skills. Arya has not been shown to have any warging abilities in the show, so how was this an advantage for her? 

No. Arya was blind while the waif could see during the training. Arya learned to fight not being able to see, but the waif did not.

[Darkstream]

6 minutes ago, tugela said:

No. Arya was blind while the waif could see during the training. Arya learned to fight not being able to see, but the waif did not.

She may not of been blind during Arya's training, but she should have already received the same training when she was a recruit.

[hallam]

15 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

So let's suppose that I was able to get past the countless moments of suspension of disbelief needed to arrive at the point where Arya Wolverine slashes out the candle. Wouldn't the Waif also have the ability to fight in the dark as she is herself a faceless man and was the one that actually trained Arya in these skills. Arya has not been shown to have any warging abilities in the show, so how was this an advantage for her? 

Arya knows what is going to happen, she has planned this from the start.

She didn't plan to get stabbed but she did plan to lure the Waif into a trap. Arya only needs a few seconds of surprise and the Waif is dead.

Also the Waif has a dagger and Arya has needle which has a considerably longer blade. It also has an edge, not just a point. While the point will usually beat the blade, that doesn't hold if the fight is in the dark and it is possible to make slashing attacks.

Its like when it rains in Formula 1. All the drivers can drive in the wet, all are slower but some drivers are a lot slower and some are only a little slower. So the fastest driver in the wet is often very different to the fastest driver in the dry.

[Darkstream]

3 minutes ago, hallam said:

Arya knows what is going to happen, she has planned this from the start.

She didn't plan to get stabbed but she did plan to lure the Waif into a trap. Arya only needs a few seconds of surprise and the Waif is dead.

Also the Waif has a dagger and Arya has needle which has a considerably longer blade. It also has an edge, not just a point. While the point will usually beat the blade, that doesn't hold if the fight is in the dark and it is possible to make slashing attacks.

Its like when it rains in Formula 1. All the drivers can drive in the wet, all are slower but some drivers are a lot slower and some are only a little slower. So the fastest driver in the wet is often very different to the fastest driver in the dry.

Honey potting at it's finest. Why would Arya choose to "lure" the Waif from a position where it would require her to, in a bionic woman fashion, parkour across the entire city to arrive at her ambush site? 

And the Waif was standing across the room from Arya when she extinguished the flame, she had plenty of time to react and defend herself, especially as the show has already established that she is a far superior fighter than Arya, who was severely injured at the time.

[The Handsome Man]

6 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

The most generous interpretation of her behavior was she was trying to lure the Waif into a trap in that dark room with Needle...but the logistics behind that "trap" plan were never even remotely explained at or hinted at this episode.

Agree with everything you have said leading up to and after this episode.  In the behind the scenes short for the episode, they did say that Arya was leading the Waif into the trap deliberately by smearing the blood on the walls -- still seems like an ex post explanation to me but thought it was worth pointing out.  I also assume the reason they had Jaquen/Kindly Man say "do not let her suffer" and then repeated that in the intro to episode 8 was to explain why the Waif did not go for a throat slash in episode 7.  I am not defending it -- as others have written, this all could have been done so much better, even if you wanted to stay with the "Arya gets stabbed/Lady Crane heals her/kill the waif plot".

I am really struggling now to understand the character's purpose going forward.  These past episodes should prove to everyone: Put aside all the tinfoil stuff.  Ayra is not turning into Nymeria, she is not the waif, she is is not meeting Gentry, Syrio or Jaquen again.  They made a bid deal at the start of episode 5 of Arya culling down her list to 3 (Frey, the Mountain, Cersai).  My guess is that the next time we see her, the list is back on her lips.  The problem, of course, is that she is leaving the HofBW with absolutely no additional skills, except hard core sweeping and fighting in the dark (contrast that to the Arya in the books, which is where the show could have and should have taken her development). But I bet we see her exacting revenge on 1 or 2 of the 3 somehow -- and probably in another episode that makes us all groan.  The point is: there is now no way out of this incredulous mess they have created.  It is just not believable to think that Arya is going to be his effective assassin exacting revenge -- but that is where I think they are going to go with the character.  Otherwise, what role does she serve?

 

 

[Vastet]

She may not of been blind during Arya's training, but she should have already received the same training when she was a recruit.

Only if the Waif also stole a face before she was ready. Arya going blind was a punishment, not a part of her regular training.

[HellasLEAF]

- The waif messed up the killing.  Maybe she wanted to prolong the agony, but the better question is why she chose to do that.  She had just executed the perfect surprise stabbing and brings a small blade like that?  It's like not bringing a knife to a knife fight.  Or doesn't go for the throat right away?  Arya no slouch and she knows that.  Just not adding up  

- Her being content that Arya was dead by looking over the bridge and not seeing her come up.  Go down there and make sure you are a trained assassin.  

- Arya stumbles the street bleeding everyone seeing this.  Waif is where.  Back at the crib chilling? 

- Arya gets to the woman's room and needing immediate assistants sits in a corner and says nothing?  How about, hi I am bleeding to death.  Help!

- Arya goes from presumed dead to good shape far too quickly.  

- The t-1000 way in which she chased her felt really corny and out of place.

- The leading with the blood.  How could the waif not see that was a trap.  

- Her line at the end.  Ugh, it was cringeworthy.  But I suppose they needed to be crystal clear about it.  Jaqen is pretty ok with that?  His reaction there was surprising to me.  Considering build up.

- etc.  

 

Bottom line for me on Arya is her storyline in Braavos was dragged out far too long.  And not handled well enough in the crucial moments.  In the books it would make sense almost to run her story line along.  Lotta pages to fill.  But in the show this needed to be condensed much better imo.  

It wasn't all bad.  There were some thrilling moments.  But ya, it's really not making a ton of sense for me the way it all played out after all that time.  

 

[Darkstream]

21 minutes ago, Vastet said:

Only if the Waif also stole a face before she was ready. Arya going blind was a punishment, not a part of her regular training.

OK, I may have mixed that up with the books, but it's just another example of d$d doing a pointless 180 degree change from the books in what is suppose to be an adaption. Why give Arya any training when there's another opportunity for defamation and punishment of a Stark?  

Nice d$d, we get it, you hate the Starks and the concept of honor and loyalty, but love your senseless violence and revenge.  

[daemonTheBlack]

With slight editing this Arya vs Waif thing could be perfected.

Just cutout the whole Lady Crane bit. Arya fakes her injury (or just ensures the stabs are non-fatal with her ninja superpowers), leaves a blood trail for Waif to get her into her dark hideout. Its so simple.

Instead HBO wasted more screen time, actor's wages just to make Arya behave out of character. Nonsensical. The writers need to read through the books and watch the first 5 seasons again. They seem to have forgotten how this story works.

[Tagganaro]

2 hours ago, The Handsome Man said:

Agree with everything you have said leading up to and after this episode.  In the behind the scenes short for the episode, they did say that Arya was leading the Waif into the trap deliberately by smearing the blood on the walls -- still seems like an ex post explanation to me but thought it was worth pointing out.  I also assume the reason they had Jaquen/Kindly Man say "do not let her suffer" and then repeated that in the intro to episode 8 was to explain why the Waif did not go for a throat slash in episode 7.  I am not defending it -- as others have written, this all could have been done so much better, even if you wanted to stay with the "Arya gets stabbed/Lady Crane heals her/kill the waif plot".

I am really struggling now to understand the character's purpose going forward.  These past episodes should prove to everyone: Put aside all the tinfoil stuff.  Ayra is not turning into Nymeria, she is not the waif, she is is not meeting Gentry, Syrio or Jaquen again.  They made a bid deal at the start of episode 5 of Arya culling down her list to 3 (Frey, the Mountain, Cersai).  My guess is that the next time we see her, the list is back on her lips.  The problem, of course, is that she is leaving the HofBW with absolutely no additional skills, except hard core sweeping and fighting in the dark (contrast that to the Arya in the books, which is where the show could have and should have taken her development). But I bet we see her exacting revenge on 1 or 2 of the 3 somehow -- and probably in another episode that makes us all groan.  The point is: there is now no way out of this incredulous mess they have created.  It is just not believable to think that Arya is going to be his effective assassin exacting revenge -- but that is where I think they are going to go with the character.  Otherwise, what role does she serve?

 

 

Yeah I don't even know.  Maisie Williams has said she's learning a lot of skills this season and last to help her in the future, but I'm having trouble seeing what those skills are.  Blind stick-fighting and parkour doesn't seem THAT helpful and worth it for 2 seasons of training.  I'm hoping she can change faces now that Jaqhen say's she's "no one" but nothing has indicated that she's capable of that yet.  I seem to recall some interview where Maisie said she gains a very important skill from the FM that will be of immense help going forward...only thing I can think that fits that is face-changing.  But I can't seem to find that interview.

2 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Honey potting at it's finest. Why would Arya choose to "lure" the Waif from a position where it would require her to, in a bionic woman fashion, parkour across the entire city to arrive at her ambush site? 

And the Waif was standing across the room from Arya when she extinguished the flame, she had plenty of time to react and defend herself, especially as the show has already established that she is a far superior fighter than Arya, who was severely injured at the time.

Exactly.  

2 hours ago, hallam said:

Arya knows what is going to happen, she has planned this from the start.

She didn't plan to get stabbed but she did plan to lure the Waif into a trap. Arya only needs a few seconds of surprise and the Waif is dead.

Also the Waif has a dagger and Arya has needle which has a considerably longer blade. It also has an edge, not just a point. While the point will usually beat the blade, that doesn't hold if the fight is in the dark and it is possible to make slashing attacks.

Its like when it rains in Formula 1. All the drivers can drive in the wet, all are slower but some drivers are a lot slower and some are only a little slower. So the fastest driver in the wet is often very different to the fastest driver in the dry.

I appreciate all the effort you're putting into this...if only the writers did the same.  What trap was Arya laying?  Her behavior was out of character for sure in Episode 7, so I do think she was trying to lure the Waif to her.  But there was absolutely nothing even hinted at in this episode or last that explains what Arya's "plan" was.  She's out there completely unprepared, with no weapon to protect herself, and isn't even remotely cautious despite the fact that she is apparently planning to lure a magical assassin who she knows can change faces out to kill her.  It just doesn't make any sense.  It's the same kind of sloppy writing that has been apparent on the show for several seasons now.  

I'm fine with Arya defeating her once they get in the room...she'd be far more comfortable and effective with Needle than a random stick and I liked the development of her training at least coming back to mean something here.

But I still don't think the show put in a necessary, or even token effort into making things make sense here.

[Vastet]

I don't have any major problems with the writing of GOT, but I have to say S6 Ep's 7 & 8 really dropped the ball with Arya. After 7 I thought they were doing something brilliant, but then 8 made it clear that (nearly) everything that happened should be taken at face value. It's disappointing. I can fully believe Arya bested the Waif in the dark, and that Arya was luring the Waif to such a fight. I can even postulate that she spent up to a month in Lady Cranes care to get over the stabbing somewhat. But I can't believe she was so easy to catch off guard and that she was so obviously in the open. Not even a hood? Come on. She was blatantly told that her face would be taken if she failed the task, she had multiple examples of how dangerous a Faceless is, and she knew damn well that the Faceless are known and almost worshipped by all in Bravos. Her character literally stepped so far back that she was effectively the same person who was dressed as a boy heading to the wall. Like 5 seasons never happened.

At least it's over now.

[ShadowKitteh]

19 hours ago, Stoned_Heart said:

totally agree.  This episode I was waiting for a Tyler Durden moment or something like that, but so let down.

I thought Arya had grown enough as a character by now to not be making silly girly mistakes, but alas

But she is a girl.