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Jaime4Brienne

Jaime turning on Brienne

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Just now, Lord Lannister said:

It could be. People have been making this argument since season 3 though. There's foreshadowing and there's people seeing what they want to see between the lines.

They have indeed.  And I've never bought their desperate straw clutching, either. I was never a believer, although I wouldn't've minded if it had happened.

But this time they're completely hitting us with it, repeatedly, and in ways they never did before.  So this is palpably different.  Here are some of them:

  • They've shown us Cat's death scene.
  • They keep reminding us of how Cat died and who killed her.  They've done this more than once.
  • Those guilty players are on stage again now, just begging for justice.
  • They've against all odds brought Jamie and Brienne back to the Riverlands.
  • They've brought back the Brotherhood and Thoros, but not Beric.
  • They played the fealty-to-Lady-Catelyn music when Sandor walked amongst the dead and under the hanged man.

They didn't do those things before.  Plus bring Cat back this season makes thematic sense, since this is the season of the Stark's return: Bran, Benjen, Jon, Arya, Sansa, Rickon.  And soon Cat, mark my words.

Those are just the internal signs. There are at least three external signs that bear scrutiny.  But the internal signs are what made me change my mind.

 

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22 minutes ago, Masha said:

So are you going to smack yourself when it turns out that Lady Stoneheart doesn't' make an appearance ??  ;)

Frankly, I've no idea if we’ll see this “Lady Stoneheart” thing you mention.

But I am completely certain that we'll see a risen Catelyn, just as surely as we’ve seen a risen Jon. Add in the miracle of Benjen’s magical return if not from the grave itself then more than one foot into it, and you hear the music.

Michelle Fairley said that Cat was a hard character to play after her resurrection for the very reason that “she’s not a zombie”. But I'll bet she’ll be a more convincing one than Jon or even Benjen will.

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Quote

They played the fealty-to-Lady-Catelyn music when Sandor walked amongst the dead and under the hanged man.

Do you have the scene where this music plays originally? I'd like to compare the 2. 

The other clues you provided are very concrete and make a lot of sense. This would one of their best kept secrets if true. 

*crosses fingers *

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54 minutes ago, Every Last Chicken said:

Do you have the scene where this music plays originally? I'd like to compare the 2. 

The other clues you provided are very concrete and make a lot of sense. This would one of their best kept secrets if true. 

*crosses fingers *

 

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I don't have the best ears for picking up tune, but I listened a few times and it seems like the part where Cat grabs Brienne's hand onward matches up with the Hound scene. 

Even if the music choice was a fluke, the other bullet points listed make good enough sense to me. 

I wish HBO had an option to pay extra and watch the whole season at once. I HATE the anticipation all week long between episodes...haha

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2 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

 Michelle Fairley said that Cat was a hard character to play after her resurrection for the very reason that “she’s not a zombie”. But I'll bet she’ll be a more convincing one than Jon or even Benjen will.

I've been looking but I haven't seen that interview with Michelle Fairley anywhere on the net

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It's the same theme just played differently. Like said above when Cat grabs Brienne's hand.

23 seconds into first video and 10 seconds into the 2nd video you can hear the theme.

If this is on purpose it's very clever.

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Not sure if this has already been said, but I'm not sure the two segments are from the same point. Afterall, Brienne must be able to get into Riverrun SOMEHOW with the Lannister forces now in command, I don't see how she could 'sneak in'.

I reckon Jaime arranges for Brienne to go into Riverrun to try and get to the Blackfish and convince him to surrender. (The bit where Brienne is saying honour compels her to fight Jaime). Whatever goes on in Riverrun, I'm guessing the Blackfish isn't going to go down easy so Jaime takes up plan 2 - threaten Edmure - and by coming to an agreement with Edmure he's able to secure the security of the castle. (Blackfish and Brienne escape on the river)

The only point on which my theory fails is that Jaime mentions he loves Cersei, something he wouldn't go throwing around unless it was someone he trusted, or he's implying it in a familial way and not a sexual one. If he is indeed talking about loving Cersei as a lover, then I would assume he's maybe speaking to Bronn? Maybe still Brienne? I dunno.

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I don't really fault show Jamie for sticking by Cersei moreso than book Jamie.  In the book, Jamie wasn't even around when Joffery died.  In the show, he's had 2 out of 3 children die in his arms, that alone would give him enough reason to want to be closer to his remaining family members.

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I think if Jamie is going to betray anyone, it might be the Frey's. If he were to take out Walder, and his sons, and allow the Blackfish to keep Riverrun, it could be that Jamie made good on the promise he never fulfilled to Lady Stark. He cant fulfill his original promise of returning Arya and Sansa, however, it would be a means to fulfilling his debt to Lady Stark (A Lannister always pays his debts). 

The promise is also well known, as Blackfish referenced it in their parley. So its not something Jamie can bury with Lady Starks death. He already lacks credibility as an oath-breaker having slayed the Mad King. Jamie has also let slip he does value honour, even though he acts like he doesn't. Sure he would be betraying the Frey's. But he has also said he doesn't respect Walder Frey, whilst he respects the Blackfish. 

And why would Jamie risk his life fighting for the Frey's? Sure giving up Riverrun would weaken the prestige of House Lannister. However, if he were do betray house Frey and allow House Tulley to reclaim Riverrun, it could be a way of making peace between House Lannister and House Tulley. 

Why would two great and respected houses risk annihilation fighting each other, when they could bury the hatchet and dispose of house Frey. For the Lannisters, House Frey appear to be a liability, and for the Tulley's, House Frey massacred them at the Red Wedding. I know the Lannisters played a part in the Red Wedding, but that was Tywin. As the series has shown, changes in the leadership of Houses can change everything. 

 

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When Jaime is talking about slaughtering Tully's and loving Cersei, he is not talking to Brienne, pay close attention to the vid. Most likely it's Edmure.

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On 07/06/2016 at 5:26 PM, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

I believe he's yelling at Bronn which HOPEFULLY opens the door for "she fooooked Lancel" and the end of Cersei/Jaime

It's been killing me that Jaime seems to have completely overlooked the Cersei/Lancel thing - he's so obsessed with her, why wouldn't he be questioning her about it.  If the show was just waiting to introduce it here, I can live with that, that's pretty good. 

On 07/06/2016 at 9:50 AM, jbob said:

What exactly did you people think Jaime would've done if Blackfish hadn't surrendered? Do you think he'd be like "I'm a good guy now, so I guess I'll leave"? He would've attacked Riverrun, and killed everyone inside.

I honestly believe Jaime in the books will revert back to his old self. It will be caused by Brienne's betrayal.

I think this. I really like Jaime but I have a feeling his 'redemptive arc' will not be completed (maybe some redeeming act at the very end) but we'll see it reverse as a consequence of the one 'true knight' he has met in recent times having lied to him. Doesn't matter really what happens with LSH in the books, Brienne has already told the lie and she was the one person Jaime thought he could trust absolutely. I can see him thinking if no one is really honourable then what's the point of retrieving his own honour. 

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16 hours ago, Adam141414 said:

I think if Jamie is going to betray anyone, it might be the Frey's. If he were to take out Walder, and his sons, and allow the Blackfish to keep Riverrun, it could be that Jamie made good on the promise he never fulfilled to Lady Stark. He cant fulfill his original promise of returning Arya and Sansa, however, it would be a means to fulfilling his debt to Lady Stark (A Lannister always pays his debts). 

The promise is also well known, as Blackfish referenced it in their parley. So its not something Jamie can bury with Lady Starks death.

Right, only Jon’s Night’s Watch oath had an escape clause in it for his death.  Cat’s didn’t, so Jaime is still bound by it.

At least, I’m pretty sure she’ll think of it that way. : - )

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Jamie kinda fulfilled his promise to Cat.  He was the one who sent Brienne to find Sansa and Brienne was the one who got Sansa to the wall, so in a roundabout way, he did fulfill his promise.  Hell if Arya didn't run from Brienne, then he'd have successfully got both Stark girls back to their closest living family member.

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On 6/10/2016 at 7:30 AM, Igziabeher said:

I don't really fault show Jamie for sticking by Cersei moreso than book Jamie.  In the book, Jamie wasn't even around when Joffery died.  In the show, he's had 2 out of 3 children die in his arms, that alone would give him enough reason to want to be closer to his remaining family members.

You've made an excellent point. (that I hadn't thought of).

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On 6/11/2016 at 0:28 AM, Igziabeher said:

Jamie kinda fulfilled his promise to Cat.  He was the one who sent Brienne to find Sansa and Brienne was the one who got Sansa to the wall, so in a roundabout way, he did fulfill his promise.  Hell if Arya didn't run from Brienne, then he'd have successfully got both Stark girls back to their closest living family member.

I doubt very much the Blackfish would see the distinction.

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Brienne goes to RR, convinces the Blackfish to aid his niece, BF and army depart during the night to head North, the next day the siege of RR begins, they notice the castle is empty, they pursue BF north and get there right when the Vale arrives en masse. 

 

Ramsay dies, Stark's control the North again, Jaime, BF, LF, SS, JS come together, wall comes tumbling down, the combined armies say "uh oh, maybe we should unite", Others waltz in, start killing, Jaime runs off to tell Cersei what happened only to find she blew up the capital.... 

 

the proverbial poo hits the fan....

 

Hey... a man has a right to play make believe....

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On 09/06/2016 at 6:06 PM, CrypticWeirwood said:

Frankly, I've no idea if we’ll see this “Lady Stoneheart” thing you mention.

Lady Stoneheart is Cat...

:smoking:

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