JonisHenryTudor Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 12 minutes ago, King Edd of House Tollet said: No, I never said he was losing, I said he was unable to win, that's two complety different things I still believe that in the show's way (according to the spoilers, of course) are the ones making Jon stupid Not really. There are plenty of examples (history) where one army was outnumbered and still seized victory. But from a narrative pov, what exactly is Jon supposed to do? The story has to move forward, unless you suggest that Jon should sort of wade around and hope more people come until season 7? At some point, he would begin to lose the loyalty of the men fighting with him, and people would desert. Waiting around until the perfect moment would make Jon stupid, fighting while morale is high is much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 3 minutes ago, MtnLion said: I look for a reason for Ramsay to come out of a fortified position and fight. That was a temptation for him, when Stannis and his army were falling apart. "Let's go shoot fish in a barrel!" If the odds were too even, Ramsay is smart to sit and let the elements take their toll on Jon and his army. Maybe help the elements with some sneakiness, like Ramsay did with his twenty good men. But, to go out and fight, Ramsay would need to be an utter loon, if the odds didn't favor his win in a major way. Well he is arrogant and psychotic at the same time. So it wouldn't surprise me if he did ride out regardless of Jon's size. His overconfidence will be his downfall. Having said that, I would love for him to hide, and then at night send a party inside winterfell via the secret passages. But clearly that is not going to happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Edd of House Tollet Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 4 minutes ago, MtnLion said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masha Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 8 minutes ago, King Edd of House Tollet said: No, I never said he was losing, I said he was unable to win, that's two complety different things I still believe that in the show's way (according to the spoilers, of course) are the ones making Jon stupid Thats how I understood. Basically you said that both armies start with the same numbers just different tactical positions, unless the positions are radically different - Stark army completely caught by suprise and surrounded, what kind of better tactical position you think Boltons would have and allowing them to take that tactical position, how it that not a reflection of a bad general? Then you said they get to a stalemate and then Stark army suffers terrible losses. Thats basically reflection of leadership of the leader and quality of an army - it means that leader - allowed himself to be caught by surprise, didn't understand the terrain, allowed himself to be herded to bad position and had bad enough tactics to suffer tremendous losses? All this screams incompetent leader to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Edd of House Tollet Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Sorry about the last post, something went wrong here... But back to subject of the topic... Yes, history is filled with examples of the lesser army beating bigger armies. For example, Gaugamela, where the Macedonians beat the Persians with only 40.000 soldiers against 250.000 But in that case, the Macedonian army were better trained, more battle-hardened and most of all, cohesive Jon's army is made almost interely of wildings, that while they might be fierce fights and expercienced (from the Siege of Castle Black and Hardhome) they lack a better military formation. Bolton's army not only is apparently much bigger, it has a defensive fortification to retreat (Winterfell) That's why I am defending that Jon's army should be bigger, and with more support from other Northern Houses, to make it seems they had a chance, and not going on a total suicidal mission. THAT is what I think is making Jon look dumb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Edd of House Tollet Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I guess there's no scenario where Jon would make a good leader then Either way he is going to be saved by Littlefinger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 2 minutes ago, King Edd of House Tollet said: That's why I am defending that Jon's army should be bigger, and with more support from other Northern Houses, to make it seems they had a chance, and not going on a total suicidal mission. THAT is what I think is making Jon look dumb Ok, then who is coming while they sit in camp, drain their supplies, etc? He could wait for months and nobody comes. Then he is left with fewer supplies, lower morale, etc. He is forced to make a choice in a desperate moment, that doesn't make him look dumb, that just highlights the difficult position he is in. There is no guarantee that anyone else is coming, but there is a guarantee that he will lose supplies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 1 hour ago, JonisHenryTudor said: Well he is arrogant and psychotic at the same time. So it wouldn't surprise me if he did ride out regardless of Jon's size. His overconfidence will be his downfall. Having said that, I would love for him to hide, and then at night send a party inside winterfell via the secret passages. But clearly that is not going to happen... Jon and co. are doomed if Ramsay doesn't decide to engage them outside of Winterfell. He will be able to hold WF indefinitely against that rag tag band of wildlings and a few dozen Northerners. The plot demands that Ramsay ride out so he can lose the battle when LF shows up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanïelNorth Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 If i were Jon I would use the Wildings to raid the region around Winterfell as the guerillas they are, while Sansa went around to gather a more well equiped army. But hey, thats realism, lets not get that into the show. /s In the end I just hope it will be different then from whats leaked, just to suprise me and make it less idiotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 2 hours ago, King Edd of House Tollet said: That's why I am defending that Jon's army should be bigger, and with more support from other Northern Houses, to make it seems they had a chance, and not going on a total suicidal mission. THAT is what I think is making Jon look dumb My point was that if it didn't look imbalanced, only an imbecile would leave the safety of Winterfell to fight. While Ramsay is a monster, he hasn't committed suicide, yet. It is just convenient to the story, to have Ramsay see easy pickings, with the cavalry just over the horizon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Cas Stark said: . The plot demands that Ramsay ride out so he can lose the battle That would be an interesting comic strip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubicante Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 What do you think the odds are that Ramsay not only fights in the Battle of the Bastards shirtless, but he also grows wings prior to the battle and attacks the Stark army archangel style? Perhaps this is how Ramsay surprises his audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam141414 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Wheres does Ramsey's story go if he wins? At least if Jon and Sansa win - they prepare for the whitewaker invasion. Unless someone can come up with a credible story for Ramsey;s story line post victory in the BotB, im pretty certain Jon will win this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher of the night Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 10 hours ago, JonisHenryTudor said: But from a narrative pov, what exactly is Jon supposed to do? The story has to move forward, unless you suggest that Jon should sort of wade around and hope more people come until season 7? At some point, he would begin to lose the loyalty of the men fighting with him, and people would desert. Waiting around until the perfect moment would make Jon stupid, fighting while morale is high is much better. You see this is the problem: the story and the characters are motivated by future plot twist: "the story has to move forward". They have no coherent motivations or personalities. This is the most obvious wih Jon and Davos, both of them forgot everything that were characteristic of them in the previous season. Now we have the plot twist LF riding in at the head of the Vale army saving the day; so let's make characters behave so that it will be possible: let's make Jon and Sansa play dumb and dumber during recruitment forgeting all of their assets (Rickon, the letter, Ghost), let's Jon make a stupid decision of atacking a larger better prepared army, all this just so that they can play out plot twist X. BTW, have you heard about guerilla warfare? The North is the size of half Europe, there is a forest almost size of France above Winterfell, Jon could have been playing a hit and run game with the Boltons, or could have been attacking the relatively unguarded Last Hearth or Karhold but no he will attack head on a much larger force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 14 minutes ago, watcher of the night said: BTW, have you heard about guerilla warfare? The North is the size of half Europe, there is a forest almost size of France above Winterfell, Jon could have been playing a hit and run game with the Boltons, or could have been attacking the relatively unguarded Last Hearth or Karhold but no he will attack head on a much larger force. Yes I do military history.... The North is the size of northern England, not really northern Europe.. But attack LH? Or Karhold? Only a small faction of Karstarks hate the Starks, and the Umbers are still in support of the Starks in the books...which could explain that. Jon is already facing an uphill climb trying to convince the northern lords to aid him with wildlings. Committing to guerrilla warfare only affirms Westerosi suspicions that the wildllings raid, pillage, and rape. By going from house to house and not raiding that, Jon has a better chance of convincing the northern houses to support his cause even with wildlings. He is already at a disadvantage and antagonizing the north through raids is the last thing Jon should do. With so few as it is, the risks to his small force are greater if he bounces around as you suggest. He could lose several men, and he could cause many of the northern lords to unite against Jon. Even then he has over 2,000 men...not 200... which is difficult to conceal as a raiding party. His best chance is to attack Winterfell. For Jon to convince the north, he needs to comport himself like Ned, not a wildling. The north will respect the "son" of Ned, not the second coming of Mance. Hit and run with the boltons - The boltons are camped within Winterfell...taking out a few scouts isn't going to help anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conchobar Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 It is going to be interesting seeing Jon's army formation, all the Northerners will be in lines and parallel formations, but the wildlings will most likely be scattered chaotically in that order. I think it will be a dramatic image to see Wildlings standing alongside Northmen as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher of the night Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 32 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said: Yes I do military history.... The North is the size of northern England, not really northern Europe.. But attack LH? Or Karhold? Only a small faction of Karstarks hate the Starks, and the Umbers are still in support of the Starks in the books...which could explain that. Jon is already facing an uphill climb trying to convince the northern lords to aid him with wildlings. Committing to guerrilla warfare only affirms Westerosi suspicions that the wildllings raid, pillage, and rape. By going from house to house and not raiding that, Jon has a better chance of convincing the northern houses to support his cause even with wildlings. He is already at a disadvantage and antagonizing the north through raids is the last thing Jon should do. With so few as it is, the risks to his small force are greater if he bounces around as you suggest. He could lose several men, and he could cause many of the northern lords to unite against Jon. Even then he has over 2,000 men...not 200... which is difficult to conceal as a raiding party. His best chance is to attack Winterfell. For Jon to convince the north, he needs to comport himself like Ned, not a wildling. The north will respect the "son" of Ned, not the second coming of Mance. Hit and run with the boltons - The boltons are camped within Winterfell...taking out a few scouts isn't going to help anything. Guerilla warfare is not mindless raiding and pilllaging. It is about weakening the assets of the enemy, attacking it where it is weak and avoiding it where it is strong. Forcing them to split up their forces, isolating and defeting these groups one by one. So yes the Boltons are at Winterfell as the Karstarks and the Umbers. Any sane commander would try to force them to split up, instead of attacking them in their fortified positions with an inferior force! Attacking or even just threatening Last Hearth and Karhold would do just that since they cannot afford to lose their seats. When they march harass them, cut off their supplies, try to isolate them etc. Also if " Only a small faction of Karstarks hate the Starks " then it is one more reason to move to Karhold, is not it? Attacking a much large force in a fortifeid position is a suicide, it makes no sense at all; it only allows D&D to serve up a certain plot twist .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hyle Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Good one, OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfin Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 20 hours ago, MtnLion said: I look for a reason for Ramsay to come out of a fortified position and fight. That was a temptation for him, when Stannis and his army were falling apart. "Let's go shoot fish in a barrel!" If the odds were too even, Ramsay is smart to sit and let the elements take their toll on Jon and his army. Maybe help the elements with some sneakiness, like Ramsay did with his twenty good men. But, to go out and fight, Ramsay would need to be an utter loon, if the odds didn't favor his win in a major way. They already set the stage for Ramsay being incompetent with battle strategy. Remember Roose belittling him? Bolton's are crushing Jon even when LF and the Vale cruise in. Then for some inexplicable reason Ramsay being Ramsay( because they set up the fact that he was a dipshit) blows his load. Hero's win and the American public cheers and heads to bed. Booked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceheart91 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Random, but I hope whenever Jon and Ramsay meet face to face during the battle, something like this happens: Ramsay slowly becomes blinded by his own arrogance and begins to taunt Jon, saying how Winterfell is his, the Northern people are is, and how Sansa is his; mentioning how brutal he was on their wedding night. That will definitely set Jon off, and then Jon tackles him into a big ass pile of snow and starts beating the absolute shit out of him. That would be so satisfying to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.