Why didn't Jon return LongClaw to Mormonts?

[Zenthious]

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 11:56 AM, Malchyor said:

You want your house back, but won't give up a sword to get it?  WTF?

 

Without Davos, Jon would have failed.  And at no point was that sword spoken of.

 

I get that it's invaluable, especially having seen what it can do against the coming threat of The White Walkers.  But...really?  One emergency at a time!  

I'm can't recall if this happened in the show, but specifically from the book: LC Mormont took the bear hilt off of that sword and had it changed to a direwolf head. Jorah was his son and should have inherited it, but I think Jon grew to be more of a son to him during his stent as Stewart to the LC. I think in his mind his house was in decline, and so it was also a pay it forward moment. It kind of mirrors the blackfyre rebellion, in a way. The sword in that scenario was a mark of kingship/leadership. So, in the minds of those who supported the black dragon, handing down the sword was same as handing down the crown.

[StarksNTargs]

2 hours ago, mattnj81 said:

Very good point. D&D probably wanted to make sure they had enough time to show lots of boobs.

They didn't even show lots of boobs.   Jesus, you'd think this site is allergic to nudity.  Do you all watch with your parents or something?

 

Also, the sword belongs to Jon.  Period.  Jeor gave it to him for saving his life and even had the pummel changed to suit Jon's heritage.   This sword is no longer a Mormont heirloom.  It's a Stark/Targaryen/Whatever name Jon eventually decides to take heirloom and it will go to his eventual sons I'm sure.

Also, crazy theory... what if that sword was never really a Mormont heirloom in the first place?  What if it was brought to the Wall by Maester Aemon and given to Jeor once he became Lord Commander?  Meaning, the sword may actually be  Blackfyre .... heirloom of House Targaryen.

[Perrin Stark]

7 minutes ago, StarksNTargs said:

 

Also, crazy theory... what if that sword was never really a Mormont heirloom in the first place?  What if it was brought to the Wall by Maester Aemon and given to Jeor once he became Lord Commander?  Meaning, the sword may actually be  Blackfyre .... heirloom of House Targaryen.

Wouldn't work. Jeor gave Jorah the sword. Jorah sold slaves and was exiled and left the sword behind in honor of his father. Jeor takes the black because of his shame over Jorah and brings sword to wall. But I could see Blackfyre showing up at some point, just don't know how. 

[StarksNTargs]

4 minutes ago, Perrin Stark said:

Wouldn't work. Jeor gave Jorah the sword. Jorah sold slaves and was exiled and left the sword behind in honor of his father. Jeor takes the black because of his shame over Jorah and brings sword to wall. But I could see Blackfyre showing up at some point, just don't know how. 

Aemon could have given it to Jeor to have, meaning he had every right to give it to his son.  Jon getting it is mere coincidence.  Or, it could have even been Aemon that wanted Jon to have it and had Jeor make up a story to pass it along.   Why would a small house like the Mormont's have a Valyrian steel sword anyway?

[Perrin Stark]

15 hours ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Also if the sword was/is so important, why did they allow Jeor to take it to the Wall? I would think that a "super-cool" sword would need a mantel to rest on in the ancestral house. 

 

 

So yes...I am pretty sure they do not care, or for some reason were not aware of its steel? 

Sword is a paternal heirloom, i.e. goes to oldest male heir. There was no other male heir, so he brought it with him to wall. I'm sure if he died and had not already given it to Jon outright, the sword would have been returned like Ned bringing Dawn back to the Danesl. 

[Nerevanin]

19 hours ago, Cryler said:

He could've mentioned that Mormont gave it to him though. The fact that Jeor felt he was worthy to carry it would have meant something in little Lyanna's decision making.

He could I guess but I'd say that he'd risk a heated argument then. In the better case, the Mormonts would be like "Give us the sword" and Jon would be like "No! *hugging the sword*". In the worse case, the Mormonts could accuse him of stealing the sword from Jeor or his corpse. Like, it's a nice thing to say that Jeor gave it to Jon but Jon can't prove it right there, right now.

[Perrin Stark]

Just now, StarksNTargs said:

Aemon could have given it to Jeor to have, meaning he had every right to give it to his son.  Jon getting it is mere coincidence.  Or, it could have even been Aemon that wanted Jon to have it and had Jeor make up a story to pass it along.   Why would a small house like the Mormont's have a Valyrian steel sword anyway?

The sword had been in the family for generations. We have no idea how they got the sword. Maybe the reason they are a small house is that they gave up all to get the sword or maybe they were a Great house when they first acquired the sword. Either way, Aemon had nothing to do with the sword and how it came to be at the wall. Aemon would not have been able to foretell the Mormont scandal. 

There is no made up story. Jon saved Mormont's life. In appreciation he gave the sword with a changed hilt to Jon.

Often times the simplest answer is the correct answer. 

[mattnj81]

1 hour ago, StarksNTargs said:

They didn't even show lots of boobs.   Jesus, you'd think this site is allergic to nudity.  Do you all watch with your parents or something?

 

Also, the sword belongs to Jon.  Period.  Jeor gave it to him for saving his life and even had the pummel changed to suit Jon's heritage.   This sword is no longer a Mormont heirloom.  It's a Stark/Targaryen/Whatever name Jon eventually decides to take heirloom and it will go to his eventual sons I'm sure.

Also, crazy theory... what if that sword was never really a Mormont heirloom in the first place?  What if it was brought to the Wall by Maester Aemon and given to Jeor once he became Lord Commander?  Meaning, the sword may actually be  Blackfyre .... heirloom of House Targaryen.

The nudity is unnecessary, but it's not really the problem. The problem is wasting time showing tits and ass (and the occasional warty penis) instead of things that actually matter to the story - and then saying "Well, we only have ten episode seasons, so we don't have time to do everything." It's also borderline exploitation casting nobodies in a hit show just to make them get naked and then cast them aside, but that is a different discussion.

I'm not suggesting he give the sword back. What I said was a "good point" is that Jon could point to the sword and say "See, Jeor Mormont, whose honor as beyond reproach, believed in/trusted me. You should too." That argument might have carried some weight. Whether or not the sword is Jon's is not in question.

And Longclaw was the ancestral sword of House Mormont for several hundred years FYI.

[yakisikli123]

4 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

The nudity is unnecessary, but it's not really the problem. The problem is wasting time showing tits and ass (and the occasional warty penis) instead of things that actually matter to the story - and then saying "Well, we only have ten episode seasons, so we don't have time to do everything." It's also borderline exploitation casting nobodies in a hit show just to make them get naked and then cast them aside, but that is a different discussion.

I'm not suggesting he give the sword back. What I said was a "good point" is that Jon could point to the sword and say "See, Jeor Mormont, whose honor as beyond reproach, believed in/trusted me. You should too." That argument might have carried some weight. Whether or not the sword is Jon's is not in question.

And Longclaw was the ancestral sword of House Mormont for several hundred years FYI.

They mentioned Jeor Mormont without any effect. I wrote before Jon is like on drugs, maybe he has forgotten that.

[JonisHenryTudor]

4 hours ago, Perrin Stark said:

Sword is a paternal heirloom, i.e. goes to oldest male heir. There was no other male heir, so he brought it with him to wall. I'm sure if he died and had not already given it to Jon outright, the sword would have been returned like Ned bringing Dawn back to the Danesl. 

Perhaps, but the Wall isn't exactly the KG or another "honorable" post, so people may see it differently? 

[JonisHenryTudor]

3 hours ago, mattnj81 said:

The nudity is unnecessary, but it's not really the problem. The problem is wasting time showing tits and ass (and the occasional warty penis) instead of things that actually matter to the story - and then saying "Well, we only have ten episode seasons, so we don't have time to do everything." It's also borderline exploitation casting nobodies in a hit show just to make them get naked and then cast them aside, but that is a different discussion.

I'm not suggesting he give the sword back. What I said was a "good point" is that Jon could point to the sword and say "See, Jeor Mormont, whose honor as beyond reproach, believed in/trusted me. You should too." That argument might have carried some weight. Whether or not the sword is Jon's is not in question.

And Longclaw was the ancestral sword of House Mormont for several hundred years FYI.

Well unfortunately everyone should have known this once HBO was announced. They do nudity.... FX may have been better....

 

Well, Jon may have shown her LC, by I think the point was to show how Lyanna was in control of the conversation. She cut both Jon and Sansa off. The scene was done well. 

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, StarksNTargs said:

Also, crazy theory... what if that sword was never really a Mormont heirloom in the first place?  What if it was brought to the Wall by Maester Aemon and given to Jeor once he became Lord Commander?  Meaning, the sword may actually be  Blackfyre .... heirloom of House Targaryen.

I believe Blackfyre was last claimed by Bittersteal, and he was rumored to have taken the sword to Essos.

However, Dark Sister belonged to Bloodraven, whom was at Castle Black before his disappearance north of the wall. Possibly, that is the sword Jeor gave to Jon. But why would he not tell Jon the truth about where the sword came from?

Also, the books and tv program differ so much, I'm not sure if Blackfyre and Dark Sister even matter to the show.

 

[ShadowKitteh]

- Because the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch gave it to him. Jon was more family at that point than the Mormonts. If it was supposed to stay with the family, Jeor should have left it with them when he joined the Night's Watch. 

 

 

[Smoke317]

12 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Does Jorah deserves it? It should go to Lyanna Mormontas leader of House Mormont and now someone who disgraced their name. No mater how good he served under Daeny and advised her. Longclaw is Jon's sword and Dawn is not Valyrian steel sword that kills WW, it could be effective but we don't know. We don't even know where it is currently on the show. Oathkeeper is Brienne's.

I know. In the books I think the old bear asked Jon to give it Jorah if he returns and takes the black...  And the books haven't mentioned anything about Valyrian steel killing Others. I'm sure they will because they are said to be forged by dragons and we have dragon glass...  But the name "Dawn" sure seems like it will play a big role in the Long Night. What signals the end of night but the "dawn"...  Plus the book mentions swords with pale flames...  Maybe all of the important swords will light up in the vicinity of the Others/WW's...  Also Jon never has dragon dreams but when ghost meets Bran in a Warg dream when Jon is north of the wall he mentions the constellation The Sword of the Morning a few times...  TSOTM...  Another name that foreshadows ending the Long Night. I'm sure the show will go another route but I still hold out hope for Dawn to play a big role in the books and I hope Jon is the one wielding it. Along with Euron's Valyrian Steel Armor...  Lol. 

[Ser Hyle]

On 6/7/2016 at 9:53 PM, gregg22 said:

Jon's entire character shift has been strange..moping around lamenting the fact they have so few men.

It looks like you said Jon moping around and lamenting is a character shift. 

[Ser Hyle]

16 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

I know. In the books I think the old bear asked Jon to give it Jorah if he returns and takes the black...  And the books haven't mentioned anything about Valyrian steel killing Others. I'm sure they will because they are said to be forged by dragons and we have dragon glass...  But the name "Dawn" sure seems like it will play a big role in the Long Night. What signals the end of night but the "dawn"...  Plus the book mentions swords with pale flames...  Maybe all of the important swords will light up in the vicinity of the Others/WW's...  Also Jon never has dragon dreams but when ghost meets Bran in a Warg dream when Jon is north of the wall he mentions the constellation The Sword of the Morning a few times...  TSOTM...  Another name that foreshadows ending the Long Night. I'm sure the show will go another route but I still hold out hope for Dawn to play a big role in the books and I hope Jon is the one wielding it. Along with Euron's Valyrian Steel Armor...  Lol. 

This just made me wonder.... why did Ned exile Jorah from Westeros instead of making him take the black? Ned knew that Jorah is a courageous warrior (first through the breach at Pyke) and the Starks have always been strong supporters of the Night's Watch.

[Direwight]

8 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

This just made me wonder.... why did Ned exile Jorah from Westeros instead of making him take the black? Ned knew that Jorah is a courageous warrior (first through the breach at Pyke) and the Starks have always been strong supporters of the Night's Watch.

Jorah fled, Ned never caught him. If he had, then taking the black would surely have been an option.

EDIT: Apparently, slavery carried a death sentence, so I guess it wouldn't have been an option.

[Ser Hyle]

24 minutes ago, Direwight said:

Jorah fled, Ned never caught him. If he had, then taking the black would surely have been an option.

EDIT: Apparently, slavery carried a death sentence, so I guess it wouldn't have been an option.

Gotcha. This makes sense, thanks.

[Smoke317]

1 hour ago, Ser Hyle said:

This just made me wonder.... why did Ned exile Jorah from Westeros instead of making him take the black? Ned knew that Jorah is a courageous warrior (first through the breach at Pyke) and the Starks have always been strong supporters of the Night's Watch.

Yeah, it was unknown what the sentence could have been but Jorah was smart to flee because Ned could have chosen to swing the sword...

[The Dames do Moan]

Personally I'm so glad the didn't include it. Especially once he brought up Jeor and she was basically like StFu. 

If he shows it to her, to me it just doesn't make sense for her to not ask for it back, it's their families 500 year old Valyrian sword. Then Jon has to be like, Ohhh, about that, in probs gonna need to go ahead and keep it because of the WW. And then they join the cause after that?