R+L=J v.161

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

If Lyanna didn't have the long face, she wouldn't look like Arya.

If Lyanna had a different hair/eye colour, the natural thing to say would be "you look like her minus the hair/eyes, hers were XY". 

Hence, yes, Lyanna had the iconic Stark look. Her face was long, her hair was some shade of brown, not too dark, not too light, and her eyes were a shade of grey. 

And of course Bran thinks (albeit briefly) Lyanna is Arya in one of his visions, so they must have similar looks. 

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, teej6 said:

And of course Bran thinks (albeit briefly) Lyanna is Arya in one of his visions, so they must have similar looks. 

Lol, yeah - a blue-eyed blonde with a heart-shaped face, but she totally looks like Arya!

[Greymoon]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If Lyanna didn't have the long face, she wouldn't look like Arya.

If Lyanna had a different hair/eye colour, the natural thing to say would be "you look like her minus the hair/eyes, hers were XY". 

Hence, yes, Lyanna had the iconic Stark look. Her face was long, her hair was some shade of brown, not too dark, not too light, and her eyes were a shade of grey. 

imo, when people say "you look like your mother" they tend to speak in general terms, because the average person isn't all that observant or doesn't take the time to really look in detail. It's not like features are the only thing of interest in someone.  Similar body language can establish a strong resemblance between people, even in people that don't really look alike once you take the time to actually look beyond first impressions.

(We don't know what Ned or Bran see when they compare (or mistake) Arya to Lyanna. Is it the shape of their faces? the overall look? is it their attitude, their character that establishes a resemblance? similarly, we don't know what Catelyn or Tyrion see when they look at Jon)

The "iconic" Stark look is probably just the features shared by Ned and Benjen, and by Arya and Jon to some degree. Long face, greyish eyes (Benjen's tend toward blue), but these features may express themselves differently in different people, and may not actually be that rare to begin with.

Not to mention that some of these features could in fact come from a non-Stark. Say, Jon and Arya's dark eyes. (iir, while we always point out that Jon has dark eyes, it's said in the books that Arya's eyes are dark too.)

Betha Blackwood had dark eyes...did Melantha Blackwood have dark eyes as well? If that is the case, it's no wonder Jon's eyes are so dark, they look almost black. Aegon V had dark purple eyes, Black Betha had dark eyes....Rhaegar had dark indigo eyes. Add Edwyle's mother to the lot, and "dark eyes" are present in both genetic pools.... but while Jon's could come from Rhaegar, Arya's could come from her Stark side (and both would have inherited the eye color from a Blackwood).

I always imagined, no doubt because Aurane Waters has a "narrower" face and Viserys looks "gaunt", that Rhaegar had a longish face. And he wouldn't be the only one of Martin's characters. Alaster Florent has a long face, for example....Aurane Waters, incidentally, also has "grey-green" eyes.

Anyway, all this to say that basically, even though it's established in the books that Arya looks like Lyanna, there is still room to manoeuvre because GRRM hasn’t gotten into detailed descriptions, yet. The same is true, I think, for Jon

I wouldn't be surprised if some old Targaryen loyalist found that Jon had Rhaegar's nose...or something.

[Ygrain]

43 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

imo, when people say "you look like your mother" they tend to speak in general terms, because the average person isn't all that observant or doesn't take the time to really look in detail. It's not like features are the only thing of interest in someone.  Similar body language can establish a strong resemblance between people, even in people that don't really look alike once you take the time to actually look beyond first impressions.

This is quite a stretch. If you label someone as "looking like someone else", those people share some basic visual characteristics - hair colour, shape of their face, the setting of eyes.... something. They needn't be xerox copies of each other but the variability can go only to a certain extent. For example, my colouring looks much like that of ex's family, but no-one ever said that I look like my ex-MIL. On the other hand, when I came visiting my mother's workplace, even the people who hadn't seen me before yould guess exactly whose daughter I was.

[Greymoon]

Just now, Ygrain said:

This is quite a stretch. If you label someone as "looking like someone else", those people share some basic visual characteristics - hair colour, shape of their face, the setting of eyes.... something. They needn't be xerox copies of each other but the variability can go only to a certain extent. For example, my colouring looks much like that of ex's family, but no-one ever said that I look like my ex-MIL. On the other hand, when I came visiting my mother's workplace, even the people who hadn't seen me before yould guess exactly whose daughter I was.

Basic visual characteristic includes body language. My sister takes after my mother; I take after my father. Yet, when we are together, some people mistake us for twins. We have similar height and colouring, but besides that, we are rather different - all except our body language and manner of speech.

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Greymoon said:

Basic visual characteristic includes body language. My sister takes after my mother; I take after my father. Yet, when we are together, some people mistake us for twins. We have similar height and colouring, but besides that, we are rather different - all except our body language and manner of speech.

 

 

Again, Bran mistakes Lyanna for Arya in his vision and the only way he realizes it's not her is because the boy she's playing swords with does not share his physical traits. Now, Bran is not assuming Lyanna is Arya because of as you say body language and manner of speech. He is doing so because a younger Lyanna resembles Arya in looks.

Also, this is what Ned says about Lyanna and Arya's similarities: “Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her." By this Ned is not referring to body language or manner of speech. See the words "even look" that implies physical resemblance.  I don't know how much plainer this can be. 

[teej6]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Lol, yeah - a blue-eyed blonde with a heart-shaped face, but she totally looks like Arya!

Yeah, to me its quite clear in the books that Arya is being compared to Lyanna both because of her wild character and because of her physical looks. 

[Greymoon]

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

Again, Bran mistakes Lyanna for Arya in his vision and the only way he realizes it's not her is because the boy she's playing swords with does not share his physical traits. Now, Bran is not assuming Lyanna is Arya because of as you say body language and manner of speech. He is doing so because a younger Lyanna resembles Arya in looks.

Also, this is what Ned says about Lyanna and Arya's similarities: “Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her." By this Ned is not referring to body language or manner of speech. See the words "even look" that implies physical resemblance.  I don't know how much plainer this can be. 

And how does that in any way contradict that body language is part of the visual characteristics that establishes resemblance between people?

[teej6]

34 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

And how does that in any way contradict that body language is part of the visual characteristics that establishes resemblance between people?

Ned first compares Arya's character to Lyanna's and then states that you "even look" like her, which basic interpretation would imply physical similarities not body language. Not many people interepret similar look to body language

[Greymoon]

9 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Ned first compares Arya's character to Lyanna's and then states that you "even look" like her, which basic interpretation would imply physical similarities not body language. Not many people interepret similar look to body language

I was not arguing for a different interpretation of that specific statement, but speaking in general terms. In my experience, people are not as observant as Ygrain implied.

If body language doesn't establish visual resemblance between people, why does it matter so much for professional lookalikes to emulate the body language of those they are supposed to resemble? and what about child-actors in flashback scenes?....imo, general outward characteristics are usually sufficient for most people to find a resemblance between two individuals.  

[Ygrain]

Honestly, I've never seen anyone distinguishing looks by body language. If anyone behaves like their mother, they say "you're just like your mother", not "you look like your mother", or they compare the mannerism/gestures/whatever. 

Besides, as teej points out, when Ned speaks about similar behaviour and then says "you even look like her", he means physical appearance by it because the similarities of their characters have already been covered.

 

[Ser Creighton]

16 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Lyanna Mormont + Alister Thorne = Joffery?   
she wasn't even born when Joff was conceived!

Hello Lysa + Aerys= umm Jorah?

Yeah that's it, that's why Longclaw is at the wall, it's about Jorah, Jon is just filling in for him till he gets there.

Or Jorah is filling in for Jon till Dany gets there. Nah, that would be crazy, it's about Lord friend zone.

12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Hence, yes, Lyanna had the iconic Stark look.

Or they both look like Horses. They were both associated Horses, maybe we see centaurs, an even bigger northern secret.

Side note does the centaur quote remind anyone of the Sphinxes. A pair of centaurs? Male and female, half this and half that?

[IceFire125]

3 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

Or they both look like Horses. They were both associated Horses, maybe we see centaurs, an even bigger northern secret.

Side note does the centaur quote remind anyone of the Sphinxes. A pair of centaurs? Male and female, half this and half that?

Interestingly enough, we learned that Jon looked at Ygritte and thinks about Arya...

Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya.

“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?

Ygritte, like Arya is also a half fish... and a half horse (Lyanna)...

Ygritte punched his arm. “You know nothing, Jon Snow. I’m half a fish, I’ll have you know.”
“Half fish, half goat, half horse … there’s too many halves to you, Ygritte.”

Not only that, it's like GRRM wants us to connect Jon (Rhaegar) with Lyanna via Arya/Ygritte...

“It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.
She punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”

And ironically, Ygritte did see a dragon...

“A queen stayed there for a night.” Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. “Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He’s called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she’d worn when she spent the night among them.”
“I have never seen a dragon.”

http://i.imgur.com/cTLGqBV.jpg

Rhaegar went through the same thing like Jon...

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

**Rhaegar pledged himself to Lady Lyanna in front of the weirwood, just as Jon pledged himself to the Night's Watch.

Rhaegar knew that he and Lyanna can't be sent home to the Starks, the Targaryens, and any where in the Seven Kingdom, because they would not be welcomed. So where did he take her, where did Rhaegar stand??...

And where do I stand? Jon did not know. To stay with Ygritte, he would need to become a wildling heart and soul. If he abandoned her to return to his duty, the Magnar might cut her heart out. And if he took her with him … assuming she would go, which was far from certain … well, he could scarcely bring her back to Castle Black to live among the brothers. A deserter and a wildling could expect no welcome anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms.

**Before deciding to marry Lyanna and taking her to the tower of joy, Rhaegar went through the same thought process as Jon here with Ygritte.  Rhaegar knew that Aerys' men would eventually catch Lyanna (who was tKotLT), that would lead to her death, or her Father's men will find her which would lead to her continued betrothal to Robert, something that I'm sure Lyanna made known to Rhaegar that she does not want.

[purple-eyes]

4 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Interestingly enough, we learned that Jon looked at Ygritte and thinks about Arya...

Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya.

“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?

Ygritte, like Arya is also a half fish... and a half horse (Lyanna)...

Ygritte punched his arm. “You know nothing, Jon Snow. I’m half a fish, I’ll have you know.”
“Half fish, half goat, half horse … there’s too many halves to you, Ygritte.”

Not only that, it's like GRRM wants us to connect Jon (Rhaegar) with Lyanna via Arya/Ygritte...

“It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.
She punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”

And ironically, Ygritte did see a dragon...

“A queen stayed there for a night.” Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. “Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He’s called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she’d worn when she spent the night among them.”
“I have never seen a dragon.”

http://i.imgur.com/cTLGqBV.jpg

Rhaegar went through the same thing like Jon...

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

**Rhaegar pledged himself to Lady Lyanna in front of the weirwood, just as Jon pledged himself to the Night's Watch.

Rhaegar knew that he and Lyanna can't be sent home to the Starks, the Targaryens, and any where in the Seven Kingdom, because they would not be welcomed. So where did he take her, where did Rhaegar stand??...

And where do I stand? Jon did not know. To stay with Ygritte, he would need to become a wildling heart and soul. If he abandoned her to return to his duty, the Magnar might cut her heart out. And if he took her with him … assuming she would go, which was far from certain … well, he could scarcely bring her back to Castle Black to live among the brothers. A deserter and a wildling could expect no welcome anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms.

**Before deciding to marry Lyanna and taking her to the tower of joy, Rhaegar went through the same thought process as Jon here with Ygritte.  Rhaegar knew that Aerys' men would eventually catch Lyanna (who was tKotLT), that would lead to her death, or her Father's men will find her which would lead to her continued betrothal to Robert, something that I'm sure Lyanna made known to Rhaegar that she does not want.

i do admire that you can always speak some uncertain and suspicious things as iron truth. 

however, no matter how many times you repeat, they are still not true. 

[IceFire125]

31 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

i do admire that you can always speak some uncertain and suspicious things as iron truth. 

however, no matter how many times you repeat, they are still not true. 

I admire your persistence in trying to respond to uncertain and suspicious things. 

However, no matter how many times you keep responding, they are still relevant and true to the theory.

[UnViserion]

14 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Interestingly enough, we learned that Jon looked at Ygritte and thinks about Arya...

Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya.

“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?

Ygritte, like Arya is also a half fish... and a half horse (Lyanna)...

Ygritte punched his arm. “You know nothing, Jon Snow. I’m half a fish, I’ll have you know.”
“Half fish, half goat, half horse … there’s too many halves to you, Ygritte.”

Not only that, it's like GRRM wants us to connect Jon (Rhaegar) with Lyanna via Arya/Ygritte...

“It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.
She punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”

And ironically, Ygritte did see a dragon...

“A queen stayed there for a night.” Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. “Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He’s called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she’d worn when she spent the night among them.”
“I have never seen a dragon.”

http://i.imgur.com/cTLGqBV.jpg

Rhaegar went through the same thing like Jon...

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

**Rhaegar pledged himself to Lady Lyanna in front of the weirwood, just as Jon pledged himself to the Night's Watch.

Rhaegar knew that he and Lyanna can't be sent home to the Starks, the Targaryens, and any where in the Seven Kingdom, because they would not be welcomed. So where did he take her, where did Rhaegar stand??...

And where do I stand? Jon did not know. To stay with Ygritte, he would need to become a wildling heart and soul. If he abandoned her to return to his duty, the Magnar might cut her heart out. And if he took her with him … assuming she would go, which was far from certain … well, he could scarcely bring her back to Castle Black to live among the brothers. A deserter and a wildling could expect no welcome anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms.

**Before deciding to marry Lyanna and taking her to the tower of joy, Rhaegar went through the same thought process as Jon here with Ygritte.  Rhaegar knew that Aerys' men would eventually catch Lyanna (who was tKotLT), that would lead to her death, or her Father's men will find her which would lead to her continued betrothal to Robert, something that I'm sure Lyanna made known to Rhaegar that she does not want.

 

I like this. Probable parallels to Rhaegar and Lyanna

[purple-eyes]

18 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

I admire your persistence in trying to respond to uncertain and suspicious things. 

However, no matter how many times you keep responding, they are still relevant and true to the theory.

unless you are GRRM himself, whatever theories you have here are NOT true. 

and no, it is not fact that rhaegar and lyanna get secretly married. (i know you desperately want it to be true for some reason) 

from whatever information we have so far, jon snow is still a bastard. 

 

 

 

 

[MtnLion]

15 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

jon snow is still a bastard

There are three Kingsguard, who are dead now, that disagreed.

[purple-eyes]

56 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

There are three Kingsguard, who are dead now, that disagreed.

it said very clearly in the canon that kg can guard mistress and bastard. 

and you have nothing in canon that kg can not guard bastard. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

On 6/11/2016 at 10:04 AM, Greymoon said:

I was not arguing for a different interpretation of that specific statement, but speaking in general terms. In my experience, people are not as observant as Ygrain implied.

 

If body language doesn't establish visual resemblance between people, why does it matter so much for professional lookalikes to emulate the body language of those they are supposed to resemble? and what about child-actors in flashback scenes?....imo, general outward characteristics are usually sufficient for most people to find a resemblance between two individuals.  

 

Maybe I am missing something regarding the relevance of this debate, but I think one important factor is that this description is part of literature. Sure, in real life, someone might say that two people look alike -- but it turns out that they really don't look that much alike but body language and other mannerisms make them appear to look alike.

But GRRM is highly unlikely to be going that route as so few people would understand what is being meant. When the text says that they even look alike -- GRRM almost certainly means for the readers to understand that their physical appearance was similar. GRRM is not going to be playing games by later justifying this misleading comment by Ned to mean that Ned thought they looked alike for mannerism reasons when they really had little physical similarities. Statements in literature just don't work that way. In real life, people make those sort of mistakes -- in literature, not so much.