Puppy Stark Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 23 hours ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said: Jon father is Varys, it is known. It actually makes sense. That red priest cutting down Varys parts? It was a ritual where he sent his sperm into the future to impregnate Lyanna and magically conceive the Azor Ahai his prophecies told about. If you consider the theories of Varys secretly being a Blackfyre, it would also make Jon a Targaryen. Either that, or Lyanna was impregnated by the Holy Spirit and Jon came from a virgin birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PirateVergo Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I honestly don't understand the obsession over R+L=J not only do I find the story in itself prety boring and not even that romantic but Lyanna birthing a son is like the least relevant thing to have happened in this mess, the rebellion and fall of the Targaryen is far more important while Jon being a Targ will most likely lead to absolutely nothing or at least definitely not to him actually sitting on the Iron Throne. Jon being a Targ was just a way for GRRM to introduce a Bastard Stark protagonist without shitting on Ned's honor I doubt the fact that Jon is their son will play as big of a role as people think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nami Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 5 hours ago, PirateVergo said: I honestly don't understand the obsession over R+L=J not only do I find the story in itself prety boring and not even that romantic but Lyanna birthing a son is like the least relevant thing to have happened in this mess, the rebellion and fall of the Targaryen is far more important while Jon being a Targ will most likely lead to absolutely nothing or at least definitely not to him actually sitting on the Iron Throne. Jon being a Targ was just a way for GRRM to introduce a Bastard Stark protagonist without shitting on Ned's honor I doubt the fact that Jon is their son will play as big of a role as people think. You're a special snowflake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Freddy Blackfyre Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 What I don't understand is why fathering a bastard can be see as dishonorable. For a woman, in the midle age until very recently having a child out of wedlock give her a bad reputation but that never been the case for a man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Made a little blending of images with the actual quote from Jon's chapter in AGOT. show spoiler images Spoiler http://imgur.com/WN3guB4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said: What I don't understand is why fathering a bastard can be see as dishonorable. For a woman, in the midle age until very recently having a child out of wedlock give her a bad reputation but that never been the case for a man. I believe it's only considered dishonorable if the man is married, as he is breaking his marriage vow. I think it's almost expected that young noblemen will father a few bastards in their youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbent_Unbroken Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 5 hours ago, RumHam said: I believe it's only considered dishonorable if the man is married, as he is breaking his marriage vow. I think it's almost expected that young noblemen will father a few bastards in their youth. Right. Ned told Lyanna as much when she asked about Robert's bastard in the Vale. What young men did before they got married wasn't automatically held against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nami Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 I was talking to some people on facebook and even though the show confirmed R+L=J, which everything point to in the books, and even released an infographic showing that Rhaegar is Jon's father, people are still clinging to theories such as A+N = J and R+L=D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puppy Stark Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 19 hours ago, PirateVergo said: I honestly don't understand the obsession over R+L=J not only do I find the story in itself prety boring and not even that romantic but Lyanna birthing a son is like the least relevant thing to have happened in this mess, the rebellion and fall of the Targaryen is far more important while Jon being a Targ will most likely lead to absolutely nothing or at least definitely not to him actually sitting on the Iron Throne. Jon being a Targ was just a way for GRRM to introduce a Bastard Stark protagonist without shitting on Ned's honor I doubt the fact that Jon is their son will play as big of a role as people think. You're probably not aware of the Chekov's Gun concept. I think I really see the whole GoT plot as a subversion of King Arthur's tale. Rhaegar is Uther Pendragon (but in his case the dragon part is literal and not a name), though this time he didn't have to disguise himself to lay with Igraine/Lyanna. Also, if you ever read The Once and Future King, reading about Robb and Jon's relation I got a lot of deja vu from Kay and Artie (Kay and Robb are even redheads). There's even the magical sword only the promised king can take out of the stone/make it aflame. So I'll really bet the lineage will be important in an arthurian-like way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leticia Stark Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 53 minutes ago, Nami said: I was talking to some people on facebook and even though the show confirmed R+L=J, which everything point to in the books, and even released an infographic showing that Rhaegar is Jon's father, people are still clinging to theories such as A+N = J and R+L=D. They think it'll be different in the books? They don't know how D&D got the permission to do the show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leticia Stark Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 I've seen people still insisting Jon is Robert's son just because Kit has black hair and Targaryens don't have black hair. They probably skipped the part where Lyanna asks Ned to protect Jon from Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Villain Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said: I've seen people still insisting Jon is Robert's son just because Kit has black hair and Targaryens don't have black hair. They probably skipped the part where Lyanna asks Ned to protect Jon from Robert. I've seen this, too. It's like they're not even watching the actual show, but an alternate version they've built in the crevices of their own minds. Robert being Jon's father is asinine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 1 minute ago, Cunning Villain said: I've seen this, too. It's like they're not even watching the actual show, but an alternate version they've built in the crevices of their own minds. Robert being Jon's father is asinine. Well, it makes so much sense that Robert would want to kill his own son birthed by the woman he loved more than anyone else in the world. I mean, who wouldn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leticia Stark Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Suddenly, even Mad King became an option now lol... IDK why it's so hard to accept. We already know Lyanna is the mother, only Rhaegar can be the father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puppy Stark Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 4 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said: Suddenly, even Mad King became an option now lol... IDK why it's so hard to accept. We already know Lyanna is the mother, only Rhaegar can be the father. Well, it could still be a virgin birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leticia Stark Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 8 minutes ago, Puppy Stark said: Well, it could still be a virgin birth. LMAO Well, people did start calling him Jesus Snow after his resurrection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wun Wuns' Ghost Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 I think Lyanna whispered "his name is Jaehaerys", but Jon is much less obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 2 hours ago, sj4iy said: Well, it makes so much sense that Robert would want to kill his own son birthed by the woman he loved more than anyone else in the world. I mean, who wouldn't? Damn, man, I nearly choked on my breakfast Don't forget, you need to prove that Rhaegar and Lyanna ever had sex, or that they were ever in the same room. You also need to attach a photo of the one lucky sperm reaching the egg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdesteFideles Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 On 28/06/2016 at 6:08 PM, Ser Creighton said: It might be a fact? Well it's not a fact it's speculation. It's very unlikely that an author changes the name of one of the most recognizable names in fantasy fiction history, after holding it for over 2 decades. Strider Aragorn King Elessar Telcontar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 It seems like people are talking about the show in here. Are we allowed to do that? I'm not sure so I'm going to stay away from that for now. Anyway, I kind of wanted to touch on something. As most of you know I'm a pretty strong supporter of RLJ. However, on the off chance that it's not true, I think the only other possibility is that Arthur Dayne and Lyanna are the parents, and I wanted to talk about one of the challenges, or problems, with this theory. Mainly because it's a solution that some people have been talking a lot about for the past several months. Let's start by giving AD+L=J the benefit of the doubt, and writing off all of the RLJ hints and clues as red herrings. Ignore Rhaegar giving Lyanna the crown of winter roses and all of that, and generally just try and forget about it for the time being. Fine. Why in the hell would you keep AD+L=J a secret? Not just in general, but from everyone. Including Cat. Not only is there no good reason, but it's actually just a bad idea that potentially invites trouble, and unnecessarily tempts fate. Let's look at some of the reasons I've seen suggested. Ned was trying to protect Arthur Dayne's honor, or something like that. Sorry, but I don't buy for a second that Ned would burden himself as he did, because AD couldn't keep it in his pants. Or keep his vows. Does that sound like the Ned we all got to know for fifteen chapters in AGoT? Something about succession, maybe. Or whatever. The baby was no threat to anyone at Winterfell, Starfall, and certainly not King's Landing. Jon would have been the bastard child of a KG knight and Lyanna Stark. Even if you imagine that AD and Lyanna could have married, ignoring Arthur's KG vows, you're still talking about a child who was, not only dubiously legitimate, but the product of a second son and a younger daughter. Jon would be a last resort when it came to inheriting either Starfall or Winterfell. Not only that, but bastards are openly welcomed in Dorne. Robert would be angry. Sure, he would have been angry at Arthur Dayne and would have wanted to kill him. I buy that. But Dayne was already dead by the time Robert learned of Jon's existence. Would Robert have been angry enough to take it out on this baby? I doubt it. And even if he was, do you think Ned would have given him the opportunity to do anything about it? Jon would have been long leagues from Robert by the time people found out who his parents were. For the sake of argument, let's go ahead and assume that Robert would have been angry enough to kill this innocent baby, which I actually doubt. Neither Ned nor Jon Arryn would allow him to do so. Ned because of his promise, and Jon Arryn because of politics. Remember that the latter already had to make peace with Dorne following the rebellion. Partially due to the murder of young children, btw. It's not hard to imagine that Jon Arryn, Hand of the King, would have counseled against slaughtering an infant who was the bastard nephew of the Lord of Starfall. Robert would have had to be willing to go to war against the North and Dorne, and maybe even the Iron Islands. Just to try and kill Arthur Dayne's baby. Sorry, don't buy it. Even if you believe Robert had it in him, it was too hard of a sell politically. Finally, there is an explanation which looks like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. The premise is that AD+L=J is true, but no one would believe it because they all think that Rhaegar loved, or lusted after, Lyanna. Maybe there's something to that line of thought. But, even if people believed that, its legitimacy would be severely undercut once Ned, not to mention Howland Reed and possibly some of Arthur's relatives, claimed -- swore, if necessary -- that the baby was in fact Arthur's. And if the baby was his, no one would ever find proof that it was Rhaegar's. In other words, you're going to have a hell of a time launching a rebellion based on the claim that this baby, who was said to be Arthur's, was actually Rhaegar's. Great! But, if Arthur was the father and Ned lied about it and claimed the baby was his. And people found out he was lying about that. Well, that would be a really fantastic way to make all the key players think that you were lying when you then tried to say that Arthur, not Rhaegar, was the father. Good luck with that. From that day till his last, Jon would be followed by whispers that he was Rhaegar's son. Which would cause trouble with Robert and the Lannisters. Thus creating the problem you were trying to prevent. If your attempt to explain the secrecy of AD+L=J involves creating a potential problem where none existed before, or replacing a small problem with a bigger one, it's not a very good explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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