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RumHam

R+L=J v.161

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5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

it said very clearly in the canon that kg can guard mistress and bastard. 

and you have nothing in canon that kg can not guard bastard. 

In canon, the Kingsguard have a responsibility to guard the king, first.  There are three that died guarding who they believed was the king, even when they knew about Viserys.  Jon is a legitmate Targaryen.  

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4 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

In canon, the Kingsguard have a responsibility to guard the king, first.  There are three that died guarding who they believed was the king, even when they knew about Viserys.  Jon is a legitmate Targaryen.  

KG are human beings. we have KG killed king, we have KG as kingmaker, we also have numerous traitors in KG. 

three KG already betrayed their king by hiding with rhaegar without any information for one year. they also were absent from the war. why do you think they will suddenly become loyal to that king? they are in the camp of prince. they are waiting for rhaegar to win to show up. otgerwise they will be captured by aerys. 

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31 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

KG are human beings. we have KG killed king, we have KG as kingmaker, we also have numerous traitors in KG. 

The Kingsguard have one priority, that is to protect and defend the king.  (I think that they have given the particular oath twice in the TV series, check what Brienne says to first Catelyn, then Sansa.)  They are not traitors, Ned believes them fine examples, years later.  That tells us that they were holding true to their vow, which Ned was present for when Jaime swore his to Aerys.  (Need I remind you what Ned thinks of Jaime?)

31 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

three KG already betrayed their king by hiding with rhaegar without any information for one year.

No, they didn't they were following orders, first Whent and Dayne were Rhaegar's assigned bodyguards.  They had been assigned by Aerys.  Second, Hightower was commanded by Aerys to find Rhaegar and have him return to King's Landing.  

31 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

they also were absent from the war. why do you think they will suddenly become loyal to that king?

They had been given another job by Prince Rhaegar.  Jaime was assigned to the defense of the capital and Aerys.  The last three went with Rhaegar to the Trident, to "defend the king".  

31 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

they are in the camp of prince. they are waiting for rhaegar to win to show up. otgerwise they will be captured by aerys. 

They are there because Jon Targaryen is there.  If not for Jon, they would have been on Dragonsone with Viserys.  

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there is nowhere said whent and arthur are his personal guards. and we were told once or twice that aerys wanted to have all of his 7 kg together to protect him. please do not create canon by yourself. they are not his personal guards as far as we know. 

by the way, that is one year's absense. not a week or a month. they definately should report to king about where they are and what they do. 

ned thought arthur is true knight because they did not flee from hopeless fighting and they were guarding his sister per order of their boss and his sister eloped willingly with rhaegar. basicly arthur is the victim of lyanna's selfish action. and also ned and howland killed him in a really bad way. of course ned will not think bad of arthur. . 

rhaegar is not king and he had no power to give job to KG. it is aerys who held jaime and it is aerys who let rhaegar lead the army. 

 

7 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

The Kingsguard have one priority, that is to protect and defend the king.  (I think that they have given the particular oath twice in the TV series, check what Brienne says to first Catelyn, then Sansa.)  They are not traitors, Ned believes them fine examples, years later.  That tells us that they were holding true to their vow, which Ned was present for when Jaime swore his to Aerys.  

No, they didn't they were following orders, first Whent and Dayne were Rhaegar's assigned bodyguards.  They had been assigned by Aerys.  Second, Hightower was commanded by Aerys to find Rhaegar and have him return to King's Landing.  

They had been given another job by Prince Rhaegar.  Jaime was assigned to the defense of the capital and Aerys.  The last three went with Rhaegar to the Trident, to "defend the king".  

They are there because Jon Targaryen is there.  If not for Jon, they would have been on Dragonsone with Viserys.  

 

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Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? 

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." 

 

 

 

Should make it plainly clear that the Kingsguard could have been staying just due to Rhaegar's orders. Now it might turn out that Jon is legitimate and they had that reason as well, but to suggest that Martin's "they were following orders" explanation is not valid is dumb. Even if it's a cover story, the cover story still has to make sense. Despite what @MtnLion keeps insisting, the Kingsguard's presence is not a dead giveaway that Jon is legitimate. It's just a clue. 

 

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6 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

that aerys wanted to have all of his 7 kg together to protect him. please do not create canon by yourself. they are not his personal guards as far as we know. 

Whent and Dayne are always with Rhaegar.  Cite any instance when they are not accompanying the prince.  Cite the exact context and textual support for your idea that Aerys wants all of his Kingsguard with him at all times.  Then remember that Aerys directly orders Jaime back to King's Landing after he takes his oath.  

8 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

ned thought arthur is true knight because they did not flee from hopeless fighting and they were guarding his sister per order of their boss and his sister eloped willingly with rhaegar

They were not guarding Lyanna from Ned.  Get some perspective.  Rhaegar is dead.  Aerys is dead.  Elia nd her children have been slaughtered.  Viserys and Rhaella are the last of the Targaryens and have fled to Dragonstone, wouldn't the Kingsguard have a interest in going there?  They don't need to fight Ned to protect Lyanna, since Ned would not harm Lyanna, let alone dying for it.  They can surrender, the war is over.  They can treat with Ned for passage to Dragonstone, that is within Ned's power.  There is only Jon Targaryen holding them at the tower.  

12 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

rhaegar is not king and he had no power to give job to KG. it is aerys who held jaime and it is aerys who let rhaegar lead the army. 

Oh, damn, and I thought that you were one that always referred to the SSM that GRRM said the Kingsguard had to follow Rhaegar's orders unless those orders jeopardized the king's interests.  (I know GRRM didn't say it that way, but that is the gist of it.)  You really don't need to look any further than Rhaegar's last conversation with Jaime to know this is true.  Jaime wants to ride into battle, and suggests that some other Kingsguard could stay in his place.  Rhaegar orders him to stay, as Aerys wishes, and Jaime does.  

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18 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

Oh, damn, and I thought that you were one that always referred to the SSM that GRRM said the Kingsguard had to follow Rhaegar's orders unless those orders jeopardized the king's interests.  (I know GRRM didn't say it that way, but that is the gist of it.)  

Yeah, I just posted the quote a couple posts above. He says nothing about orders that conflict with the king's interests. That is not the gist of it, that is you doing mental gymnastics so that that quote doesn't conflict with your dogma. Just as you did with the Viserys was heir thing. 

Consider Rhaegar's plans for Harrenhal. You think Arthur didn't know what he planned? Not to mention we have reason to believe Whent was acting as a go between with his brother to arrange the whole thing with Rhaegar's funds. These would be actions against the king's interests. 

There are situations where people are forced to make hard choices about their vows. Like rebellions. 

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17 minutes ago, RumHam said:

There are situations where people are forced to make hard choices about their vows. Like rebellions. 

 And the 3KGs at the tower made that ultimate decision.. to protect their king.

They declared that Robert is a usurper, not a rightful authority to claim their fealty.

They declared that Jaime is a false brother.  Last time they checked, Jaime was wearing a white cloak, they saw him make a public showing in front of everyone to see, swearing the Kingsguard oath.

These 3KGs decided to stay at the tower and not go to Prince Viserys, who should be the next in line to the throne, when Ned offers them to go.  Their vows dictate that they should have gone to Dragonstone.

Yet these same 3KGs stayed and declared to Ned, that they swore a vow, pumped their chests proclaiming that they are Kingsguard.

There is no other claimant higher than Viserys (the rightful heir), unless the 3KGs saw another legitimate claimant... Jon.  Therefore they must have been convinced that Jon was born royalty... that Rhaegar and Lyanna did indeed marry.

And that was enough for Lord Commander Hightower to stay at the tower, a person that's the most strict and by the book Kingsguard there is, a person that would without a doubt go to Viserys if there is one taint of evidence that Jon was born a bastard.

 

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9 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

 And the 3KGs at the tower made that ultimate decision.. to protect their king.

They declared that Robert is a usurper, not a rightful authority to claim their fealty.

They declared that Jaime is a false brother.  Last time they checked, Jaime was wearing a white cloak, they saw him make a public showing in front of everyone to see, swearing the Kingsguard oath.

These 3KGs decided to stay at the tower and not go to Prince Viserys, who should be the next in line to the throne, when Ned offers them to go.  Their vows dictate that they should have gone to Dragonstone.

Yet these same 3KGs stayed and declared to Ned, that they swore a vow, pumped their chests proclaiming that they are Kingsguard.

There is no other claimant higher than Viserys (the rightful heir), unless the 3KGs saw another legitimate claimant... Jon.  Therefore they must have been convinced that Jon was born royalty... that Rhaegar and Lyanna did indeed marry.

And that was enough for Lord Commander Hightower to stay at the tower, a person that's the most strict and by the book Kingsguard there is, a person that would without a doubt go to Viserys if there is one taint of evidence that Jon was born a bastard.

 

All of this is totally possible. It is not certain. 

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1 hour ago, IceFire125 said:

 And the 3KGs at the tower made that ultimate decision.. to protect their king.

They declared that Robert is a usurper, not a rightful authority to claim their fealty.

They declared that Jaime is a false brother.  Last time they checked, Jaime was wearing a white cloak, they saw him make a public showing in front of everyone to see, swearing the Kingsguard oath.

These 3KGs decided to stay at the tower and not go to Prince Viserys, who should be the next in line to the throne, when Ned offers them to go.  Their vows dictate that they should have gone to Dragonstone.

Yet these same 3KGs stayed and declared to Ned, that they swore a vow, pumped their chests proclaiming that they are Kingsguard.

There is no other claimant higher than Viserys (the rightful heir), unless the 3KGs saw another legitimate claimant... Jon.  Therefore they must have been convinced that Jon was born royalty... that Rhaegar and Lyanna did indeed marry.

And that was enough for Lord Commander Hightower to stay at the tower, a person that's the most strict and by the book Kingsguard there is, a person that would without a doubt go to Viserys if there is one taint of evidence that Jon was born a bastard.

 

i agree that whent and arthur were already in rhaegar's camp and they probably were secretly planning to depose aerys and install rhaegar as new king. it is very likely that rhaegar is already their "king" in their mind. that is why they followed his order so adamantly. they already chose their boss and that is rhaegar. 

however, please do not mix something like "marriage" into these things and try to make people agree all of them. that is just your own theory. jon is a of course bastard but he still is the last blood of rhaegar. since his two other children already died and rhaegar also died, jon has potential to be legitimized. that is why KG wanted to guard him. just like why davos protected edric storm who is also a bastard. 

 

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9 hours ago, MtnLion said:

There are three Kingsguard, who are dead now, that disagreed.

How do you know they disagreed?  

Could have been following the last orders they received from Rhaegar or Aerys II. 

Additionally, these three KG weren't really in any position to play kingmaker. The realm would never have accepted Rhaegar and Lyanna's love child as the rightful heir to the throne. Apart from the need for a prolonged regency, the factions that would have supported any such claim were defeated during Robert's Rebellion. The Martell's fought for the Targaryens and I'm doubt they would have even respected Jon's claim. 

If Jon does indeed become King some day, it will be the result of his deeds, not his fathers reckless dalliances. 

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4 hours ago, MtnLion said:

Whent and Dayne are always with Rhaegar.  Cite any instance when they are not accompanying the prince.  Cite the exact context and textual support for your idea that Aerys wants all of his Kingsguard with him at all times.  Then remember that Aerys directly orders Jaime back to King's Landing after he takes his oath.  

They were not guarding Lyanna from Ned.  Get some perspective.  Rhaegar is dead.  Aerys is dead.  Elia nd her children have been slaughtered.  Viserys and Rhaella are the last of the Targaryens and have fled to Dragonstone, wouldn't the Kingsguard have a interest in going there?  They don't need to fight Ned to protect Lyanna, since Ned would not harm Lyanna, let alone dying for it.  They can surrender, the war is over.  They can treat with Ned for passage to Dragonstone, that is within Ned's power.  There is only Jon Targaryen holding them at the tower.  

Oh, damn, and I thought that you were one that always referred to the SSM that GRRM said the Kingsguard had to follow Rhaegar's orders unless those orders jeopardized the king's interests.  (I know GRRM didn't say it that way, but that is the gist of it.)  You really don't need to look any further than Rhaegar's last conversation with Jaime to know this is true.  Jaime wants to ride into battle, and suggests that some other Kingsguard could stay in his place.  Rhaegar orders him to stay, as Aerys wishes, and Jaime does.  

I do not have World book at hand. but i am sure  at one chapter it mentioned that aerys only met tywin with all KG present. And also barristan mentioned once that he accompanied rhaegar to summer hall. do you think barristan is his personal guard? 

rhaegar was with arthur and whent only for this lyanna event. where elde did you see he was mentioned to be always with them? Elia was accompanied by hightower once, is he her personal guard? arthur worked on kingswood brothers for a long time as well. obviously he is not with rhaegar on dragonstone. 

please do not create canon for your own purpose. 

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18 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I do not have World book at hand.

please do not create canon for your own purpose. 

1) you should!

2) some people view their own conjecture as canon. It cannot be stopped/helped/prevented

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5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

i agree that whent and arthur were already in rhaegar's camp and they probably were secretly planning to depose aerys and install rhaegar as new king. it is very likely that rhaegar is already their "king" in their mind. that is why they followed his order so adamantly. they already chose their boss and that is rhaegar. 

however, please do not mix something like "marriage" into these things and try to make people agree all of them. that is just your own theory. jon is a of course bastard but he still is the last blood of rhaegar. since his two other children already died and rhaegar also died, jon has potential to be legitimized. that is why KG wanted to guard him. just like why davos protected edric storm who is also a bastard. 

 

And this is your "own theory". 

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8 hours ago, RumHam said:

Should make it plainly clear that the Kingsguard could have been staying just due to Rhaegar's orders. Now it might turn out that Jon is legitimate and they had that reason as well, but to suggest that Martin's "they were following orders" explanation is not valid is dumb. Even if it's a cover story, the cover story still has to make sense. Despite what @MtnLion keeps insisting, the Kingsguard's presence is not a dead giveaway that Jon is legitimate. It's just a clue. 

 

More than their presence, it's the KGs' statements at the ToJ that lends credence to Jon's legitimacy 

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5 hours ago, teej6 said:

And this is your "own theory". 

oh, you will be so dissppointed. so far nothing can serve as true proof for a legal marriage. 

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3 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

oh, you will be so dissppointed. so far nothing can serve as true proof for a legal marriage. 

So, if Jon says I am Jon Targaryen, first of his name, etc.  It is invalid?  Why is it that everyone takes Daenerys at face value?  It is just as legitimate for Jon to claim it as Daenerys. 

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20 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

So, if Jon says I am Jon Targaryen, first of his name, etc.  It is invalid?  Why is it that everyone takes Daenerys at face value?  It is just as legitimate for Jon to claim it as Daenerys. 

that is a big "if". 

Dany? her origin is unarguable. she was born from rhaella at DS and she was carried to essos by loyalists with her brother. unless you believe those dany-baby-swap stuff, she is no doubt a Targ. 

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9 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

that is a big "if". 

Dany? her origin is unarguable. she was born from rhaella at DS and she was carried to essos by loyalists with her brother. unless you believe those dany-baby-swap stuff, she is no doubt a Targ. 

Those three dragons she hatched are pretty indicative as well.

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18 hours ago, RumHam said:

Should make it plainly clear that the Kingsguard could have been staying just due to Rhaegar's orders. Now it might turn out that Jon is legitimate and they had that reason as well, but to suggest that Martin's "they were following orders" explanation is not valid is dumb.

Well, less than two weeks ago, MtnLion was trying to argue that the SSM about Ned's fever dream was somehow not a warning against literal reading...

Anyway, as of now, there is no definite proof that Jon is legitimate, there is no proof that he isn't, and we don't even know whether it will matter.

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