R+L=J v.161

[Greymoon]

21 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Maybe I am missing something regarding the relevance of this debate, but I think one important factor is that this description is part of literature. Sure, in real life, someone might say that two people look alike -- but it turns out that they really don't look that much alike but body language and other mannerisms make them appear to look alike.

But GRRM is highly unlikely to be going that route as so few people would understand what is being meant. When the text says that they even look alike -- GRRM almost certainly means for the readers to understand that their physical appearance was similar. GRRM is not going to be playing games by later justifying this misleading comment by Ned to mean that Ned thought they looked alike for mannerism reasons when they really had little physical similarities. Statements in literature just don't work that way. In real life, people make those sort of mistakes -- in literature, not so much.

The missing point is that I was not speaking about a specific passage in literature and that I'm not even objecting to the fact that they have similar appearance. I was only adding that body language / mannerism is part of the visual characteristics that establishes resemblance, even between people that don't really look like each other upon closer inspection.

Had I known this would actually start a debate about something I didn't even mean, I'd have kept it to myself.

[UnmaskedLurker]

24 minutes ago, Greymoon said:

The missing point is that I was not speaking about a specific passage in literature and that I'm not even objecting to the fact that they have similar appearance. I was only adding that body language / mannerism is part of the visual characteristics that establishes resemblance, even between people that don't really look like each other upon closer inspection.

 

Had I known this would actually start a debate about something I didn't even mean, I'd have kept it to myself.

 

No need to keep it to yourself. As we all wait for WoW -- we have nothing better to do with our time than debate pointless issues. I certainly agree that in real life, people can be thought to "look alike" based on the "illusion" of looking alike do to body language/mannerisms. I also reiterate that in ASOIAF, when GRRM has Ned state that Lyanna and Arya looked alike -- he almost certainly means physical resemblance -- but I get that you never meant to suggest otherwise.

[Greymoon]

14 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

No need to keep it to yourself. As we all wait for WoW -- we have nothing better to do with our time than debate pointless issues. I certainly agree that in real life, people can be thought to "look alike" based on the "illusion" of looking alike do to body language/mannerisms. I also reiterate that in ASOIAF, when GRRM has Ned state that Lyanna and Arya looked alike -- he almost certainly means physical resemblance -- but I get that you never meant to suggest otherwise.

well, cheers to pointless issues, then

[yakisikli123]

Any possibility Lyanna not to be the mother. Maybe REJ, Ok Rhaegar thinks Ellia cant get a Child anymore, what if.

What if Lyanna wants him alive, because she is in love or what if Lyannas child died and changed with Ellias and Lyanna doesn't know it.

As father I cant think of anyone, as Rhaegar, because of the guards.

And is this a complicated or a simple theorie, because from promise me Ned and Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna and Ned wanting to tell Jon his mother, it seems simple. That was told from a new book reader without Internet.

[The Wolves]

13 hours ago, yakisikli123 said:

Any possibility Lyanna not to be the mother. Maybe REJ, Ok Rhaegar thinks Ellia cant get a Child anymore, what if.

What if Lyanna wants him alive, because she is in love or what if Lyannas child died and changed with Ellias and Lyanna doesn't know it.

As father I cant think of anyone, as Rhaegar, because of the guards.

And is this a complicated or a simple theorie, because from promise me Ned and Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna and Ned wanting to tell Jon his mother, it seems simple. That was told from a new book reader without Internet.

If Rhaegar is the father than who else would be the mother except a Stark?  

Jon looks like a Stark so common sense says that one of his parents was a Stark. Jon doesn't look like anyone except a Stark. 

[jbent87]

How are there 161 continuations of this thread? That is remarkable. 

[Ygrain]

25 minutes ago, jbent87 said:

How are there 161 continuations of this thread? That is remarkable. 

New people keep coming and asking, and the oldtimers indulge in the regular bouts of "why were the KG at TOJ?".

[MtnLion]

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 9:26 AM, purple-eyes said:

that is a big "if". 

Dany? her origin is unarguable. she was born from rhaella at DS and she was carried to essos by loyalists with her brother. unless you believe those dany-baby-swap stuff, she is no doubt a Targ. 

Who witnessed Daenerys' birth?  If she was born from Rhaella, who was her father?  You might not have a doubt, but there are plenty of other scenarios. 

Not a big "if", we will likely see Jon admit that he is a Targaryen before the end of the story. 

[MtnLion]

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 10:18 AM, Rippounet said:

Well, less than two weeks ago, MtnLion was trying to argue that the SSM about Ned's fever dream was somehow not a warning against literal reading...

Anyway, as of now, there is no definite proof that Jon is legitimate, there is no proof that he isn't, and we don't even know whether it will matter.

And Rippounet steadfastly refused to acknowledge that GRRM had subtly changed the subject in his answer, from Ned's dream to our dreams. 

[purple-eyes]

17 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

Who witnessed Daenerys' birth?  If she was born from Rhaella, who was her father?  You might not have a doubt, but there are plenty of other scenarios. 

Not a big "if", we will likely see Jon admit that he is a Targaryen before the end of the story. 

yeah, actually my favorite pet theory is that dany is the love child of rhaella and lewyn martell. that is why she got her name because first dany is ancestor of lewyn. 

[RumHam]

23 hours ago, MtnLion said:

And Rippounet steadfastly refused to acknowledge that GRRM had subtly changed the subject in his answer, from Ned's dream to our dreams. 

Quote

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Are you seriously arguing that because he says "our dreams" he wasn't warning that Ned's dream was not literal? Why would he bring it up at all then? He wasn't asked about it. To suggest that he brought up how it was a fever dream and then made an unrelated comment about how in real life dreams are not always literal is absurd. I seriously don't know how you can read that and not think the last sentence was relevant to Ned's dream. 

[MtnLion]

35 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Are you seriously arguing that because he says "our dreams" he wasn't warning that Ned's dream was not literal? Why would he bring it up at all then? He wasn't asked about it. To suggest that he brought up how it was a fever dream and then made an unrelated comment about how in real life dreams are not always literal is absurd. I seriously don't know how you can read that and not think the last sentence was relevant to Ned's dream. 

He didn't answer the question directly.  He isn't lying, if the dream turns out to be entirely accurate, is he? 

[Clegane'sPup]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

 

January 02, 2002

Concerning the Tower of Joy

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?

Certainly.

Cheers, I really hope you will answer these questions for me, I'll not bother you again if you do, I promise hahaha.

Merry Christmas btw, it's almost on us!

And a happy new year to you.

 

 

Arguing about a 2002 quote. This is 2016. I might mention though that Ned's account was in a fever dream...dreams are not always literal.

[RumHam]

24 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

He didn't answer the question directly. 

He didn't answer the question at all, which was why did Ned and the Kingsguard fight. He gave his standard "keep reading" response. Nobody asked him about the accuracy of the dream, he brought that up on his own. So why exactly would he bring it up and then try to be evasive about it? 

33 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

He isn't lying, if the dream turns out to be entirely accurate, is he? 

Well, no. It'd just be odd for him to bring that up unprompted if this were the case. 

20 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Arguing about a 2002 quote. This is 2016.

I'm not sure I get your point. People spend lots of time arguing about books that came out well before that. This doesn't really seem like the kinda thing Maritn would have changed his mind about over that last fourteen years. 

[mattc]

What were Targaryen succession laws like? Primogeniture? Wouldn't Lyanna's child, if not a bastard, been second or third in line among his children? I mean, they wouldn't have been able to tell it was going to be a boy. 

I'm sure R+L=J is correct, and furthermore that it's why the Kingsguard were at the tower. But it just doesn't make sense to me realistically. Three Kingsguard accompanied Rhaegar into battle, one stayed with the king and three went to protect Rhaegar's unborn third child? Meanwhile none were left to protect Rhaegar's actual living heirs, including his only son? Ok?

Seems like a poor allocation of resources. 

[Ser Creighton]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

He didn't answer the question at all, which was why did Ned and the Kingsguard fight. He gave his standard "keep reading" response. Nobody asked him about the accuracy of the dream, he brought that up on his own. So why exactly would he bring it up and then try to be evasive about it? 

Well, no. It'd just be odd for him to bring that up unprompted if this were the case. 

I'm not sure I get your point. People spend lots of time arguing about books that came out well before that. This doesn't really seem like the kinda thing Maritn would have changed his mind about over that last fourteen years. 

There is little chance the dream is fully literal, do you believe there was a storm of rose petals? Grey wraiths on horses made of mist, is clearly not literal. But when you start getting Mist, and a storm of rose petals that looked as blue as the eyes of death, you are going well into symbolism there.

It's repetative, it involves the 3 KG, and the Tower, and Lyanna in a bed of blood, Red Mountains of Dorne. Jaime Killed Aerys, Ned was at the Trident they were not, Darry fled to Dragonstone with the Queen and Viserys, chances are "I promise" is also literal as Ned recalls this.

Most of the more literal aspects of the dream are supported in the text, and the more symbolic stuff is relating other ideas to the readers. Both serve a purpose.

I can't speak for anyone else but I am guessing Lion is referring to the more literal aspects of the dream and not the symbolic, and so was Martin. It's not a lie at all, there is symbolic imagery that is never meant to be taken literally in the dream. I don't see why this would even be a debate, Martin has always loved to play the literal and symbolic off each other.

Good example off the top of my head. Was Marg, doesn;t she look like Lyanna? No she doesn't, but that did not stop her from being a rose. Literally no she does not, symbolically she totally does.

He can play it both ways as well, Lemon Tree's and Red Doors, they can be literal but also contain symbolic meaning.

Because of the way he uses both, we often see confusion by fans who take more symbolic aspects literally and more literal aspects symbolically and sometimes they just write Fan fic, ie Sansa will ride Viserion, become a powerful Wizard, defeat the Night's King to save Jon, Marry him and kill Dany. Because The mad mouse said a mouse with wings would be silly. And of course a mouse with wings is a bat, and bat = Harrenhal, and Harrenhal = Magic, and Jon, and Rhaegar, and Bran said giant bats looked like Dragons, and so it will all happen. Then someone like Ser Me might say, well maybe her tie to Harrenhal is because she is the lady of Harrenhal because of Littlefinger, and the dragon symbolism you are getting is tied to Aegon who is connected to Varys, who the mad mouse said was offering a bag of gold for Sansa. "Shut up Ser Creighton, she is getting a Dragon and Magic powers, and Jon and saving the world because a few random fans want that." The I might say ok and sit and wait for that moment where I will once again drink their sweet sweet tears.   

 

[MtnLion]

21 minutes ago, mattc said:

What were Targaryen succession laws like? Primogeniture?

Modified Agnatic Primogeniture.  A male, any male is preferred over any female in the line. 

22 minutes ago, mattc said:

Wouldn't Lyanna's child, if not a bastard, been second or third in line among his children?

Since we know that Jon is a male child we can cite the sequence of claims, starting with Aerys:  Rhaegar, Aegon, Jon, Viserys, Robert, Stannis, Renly . . .

24 minutes ago, mattc said:

Three Kingsguard accompanied Rhaegar into battle, one stayed with the king and three went to protect Rhaegar's unborn third child? Meanwhile none were left to protect Rhaegar's actual living heirs, including his only son? Ok?

Jaime was supervising gold cloaks and the king's personal men at arms in defense of the Red Keep.  (Check what he did before he found out that the pyromancer was going to set off the wildfire.)  Elia and her children were in the Red Keep, too, so logically Jaime is protecting them as well.  They are within a castle, within a keep; that is King's Landing. 

Whent and Dayne likely escorted Rhaegar from the tower back to King's Landing, when Hightower relayed the essence of his mission to Rhaegar.  Rhaegar would want Kingsguard protection for Lyanna at least until she was able to travel back to King's Landing.  But, when Rhaegar arrives at King's Landing, he does not want Aerys to question his bodyguards, so he sends them back to help Hightower.  This scenario makes sense to me, and does not waste any of the Kingsguard.  Lewyn, Barristan, and Jonothor can command the armies on the battlefield. 

When Whent and Dayne get back to the tower of joy, it is likely near the time of Lyanna's delivery, which would hold Hightower until Lyanna was ready to move.  Then news arrives about the Trident, King's Landing, et al.  They have Jon, and a gravely ill Lyanna, still unable to move.  But, they are safe, at a remote location, off the beaten track, at least that is what they believe. 

[RumHam]

30 minutes ago, Ser Creighton said:

There is little chance the dream is fully literal, do you believe there was a storm of rose petals? Grey wraiths on horses made of mist, is clearly not literal. But when you start getting Mist, and a storm of rose petals that looked as blue as the eyes of death, you are going well into symbolism there.

It's repetative, it involves the 3 KG, and the Tower, and Lyanna in a bed of blood, Red Mountains of Dorne. Jaime Killed Aerys, Ned was at the Trident they were not, Darry fled to Dragonstone with the Queen and Viserys, chances are "I promise" is also literal as Ned recalls this.

Most of the more literal aspects of the dream are supported in the text, and the more symbolic stuff is relating other ideas to the readers. Both serve a purpose.

Oh, I agree. I don't think the dream being a dream really detracts from the R+L=J theory at all. I just find MntLion's reading of that SSM to be really odd.

[Rumy Stark]

56 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

Modified Agnatic Primogeniture.  A male, any male is preferred over any female in the line. 

Since we know that Jon is a male child we can cite the sequence of claims, starting with Aerys:  Rhaegar, Aegon, Jon, Viserys, Robert, Stannis, Renly . . .

Jaime was supervising gold cloaks and the king's personal men at arms in defense of the Red Keep.  (Check what he did before he found out that the pyromancer was going to set off the wildfire.)  Elia and her children were in the Red Keep, too, so logically Jaime is protecting them as well.  They are within a castle, within a keep; that is King's Landing. 

Whent and Dayne likely escorted Rhaegar from the tower back to King's Landing, when Hightower relayed the essence of his mission to Rhaegar.  Rhaegar would want Kingsguard protection for Lyanna at least until she was able to travel back to King's Landing.  But, when Rhaegar arrives at King's Landing, he does not want Aerys to question his bodyguards, so he sends them back to help Hightower.  This scenario makes sense to me, and does not waste any of the Kingsguard.  Lewyn, Barristan, and Jonothor can command the armies on the battlefield. 

When Whent and Dayne get back to the tower of joy, it is likely near the time of Lyanna's delivery, which would hold Hightower until Lyanna was ready to move.  Then news arrives about the Trident, King's Landing, et al.  They have Jon, and a gravely ill Lyanna, still unable to move.  But, they are safe, at a remote location, off the beaten track, at least that is what they believe. 

I like this explanation a lot and think it's a solid explanation of the situation. Alternately we could potentially assume that Rhaegar was not going to leave Lyanna alone at the TOJ, so Dayne or Whent was there already. With the Battle of the Trident lost and KL under siege it also makes sense that 1-2 KG would have felt compelled to go south to protect Rhaegar's other heir. Ned and company don't go down there until after the siege, so it gives them plenty of time to get to the Tower before him.

Generally there are plenty of explanations for why there were three KG at the Tower. 

[Ser Creighton]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Oh, I agree. I don't think the dream being a dream really detracts from the R+L=J theory at all. I just find MntLion's reading of that SSM to be really odd.

I think MntLion generally expects that certain things are understood. "Entirely Accurate" I can't speak for him there, but I would find it strange if he wasn't referring to the more literal aspects. The number of people, the conversation, location, etc... Rather than the more symbolic. I think after awhile the longer term members such as yourself, Lion, get a little exasperated having to fully detail everything, or spell everything out and figure that amongst members who have been around long enough certain things are implied. I could be wrong, but it would seem odd in this case as we all know that dream really well and have all discussed it to death.

The dream itself on the literal side contains many omissions and is not fully accurate in filling the reader in. We don't know why they were there, we don't know how Ned found them, or what occurred in the battle, or between the battle and Lyanna's death. There is speculation and theory but that does not make the dream more or less accurate, as it does not change the text.

It's a fevre dream, even "Lord Stark" does not appear to be accurate as I doubt Lyanna would call Ned Lord Stark and it's rather tied to Ned being woken and reality bleeding into that moment of the dream.

We got a vampire reference, mists, a bat, wraiths, blue eyes of death, plenty of stuff pointing to the Joy that was that Tower. Joy would seem a very accurate name for that Nightmare. If you're Vlad the Impaler.