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RumHam

R+L=J v.161

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1 hour ago, MtnLion said:

Whent and Dayne likely escorted Rhaegar from the tower back to King's Landing, when Hightower relayed the essence of his mission to Rhaegar.  Rhaegar would want Kingsguard protection for Lyanna at least until she was able to travel back to King's Landing.  But, when Rhaegar arrives at King's Landing, he does not want Aerys to question his bodyguards, so he sends them back to help Hightower.  This scenario makes sense to me, and does not waste any of the Kingsguard.  Lewyn, Barristan, and Jonothor can command the armies on the battlefield. 

When Whent and Dayne get back to the tower of joy, it is likely near the time of Lyanna's delivery, which would hold Hightower until Lyanna was ready to move.  Then news arrives about the Trident, King's Landing, et al.  They have Jon, and a gravely ill Lyanna, still unable to move.  But, they are safe, at a remote location, off the beaten track, at least that is what they believe. 

I hear what you are saying, but if it was a matter of not wanting Aerys to know he could have sent Whent and Danye into the field with Barristan and redeployed the other two in other ways if he wished. 

I get what you are saying about the security of the Kings Landing, but I still don't see the deployment of three kings guard at the Tower of Joy as logical. But the heart wants what it wants and we don't always think logically. 

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Maybe the better question for me to ask is what Rhaegar protecting her from. Did he imagine he would lose on the Trident and that Tywin Lannister would order his family slaughtered? He couldn't have, and if he did he probably would have kept more Kingsguard there or taken other steps. 

So what was he protecting Lyanna from by placing her in the tower with three Kingsguard? What would three people, even if they were the best fighters of their time, be able to do against a large group that wanted to take the tower. If that was what he was worried about, wouldn't he have been better to place a larger guard there. But the more people who know, the greater the chance someone talks and your secret gets out I suppose. It seems secrecy would be the biggest ally in keeping her safe at the tower.

But if that's the case, I just keep coming back to why you need three Kingsguard there, especially in such a critical war time situation.  

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8 minutes ago, mattc said:

Maybe the better question for me to ask is what Rhaegar protecting her from. Did he imagine he would lose on the Trident and that Tywin Lannister would order his family slaughtered? He couldn't have, and if he did he probably would have kept more Kingsguard there or taken other steps. 

So what was he protecting Lyanna from by placing her in the tower with three Kingsguard? What would three people, even if they were the best fighters of their time, be able to do against a large group that wanted to take the tower. If that was what he was worried about, wouldn't he have been better to place a larger guard there. But the more people who know, the greater the chance someone talks and your secret gets out I suppose. It seems secrecy would be the biggest ally in keeping her safe at the tower.

But if that's the case, I just keep coming back to why you need three Kingsguard there, especially in such a critical war time situation.  

From whom: anyone possibly finding the secret place

3 Kingsguard: Its enough, an army would be salient. Its like come find us we are here.

Maybe they wanted change the place, but Lyanna was not in healthy condition to act quickly

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6 hours ago, MtnLion said:

Modified Agnatic Primogeniture.  A male, any male is preferred over any female in the line. 

Since we know that Jon is a male child we can cite the sequence of claims, starting with Aerys:  Rhaegar, Aegon, Jon, Viserys, Robert, Stannis, Renly . . .

Not quite true (not that it really matters). It was clarified (I think in WOIAF) that males from a female line do not get a better claim than their female ancestor. So because Robert's claim would come from his grandmother, his claim cannot be better than his grandmother's claim which would come after Dany and Rhaenys and Rhaella (if they had lived). So Dany and Rhaenys and Rhaella would all come before Robert under the formal Targ succession rules because all of those females would have had a superior claim to Rhaelle, Robert's Targ grandmother.

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5 hours ago, yakisikli123 said:

From whom: anyone possibly finding the secret place

3 Kingsguard: Its enough, an army would be salient. Its like come find us we are here.

Maybe they wanted change the place, but Lyanna was not in healthy condition to act quickly

Well, it's an odd location to be sure. Rhaegar who had been to Dorne many times more than likely did not use the Princes Pass. He would of used the Boneway which runs from Summerhall through the red mountains and is the more direct rout.

Going from Harrenhal to the Princes pass without notice would have been difficult, given his standing and his company. I always imagined he took a ship which would of been faster and avoided detection. More than likely to Starfall, the ship could then been sent to Essos on a trading voyage, taking it out of the game. From Starfall he would have had to Journey north with company. I would suggest given the Ashara suspected connection that he was indeed at Starfall and the Tower of Joy acted as a meeting place, for him and Hightower.

Lyanna was not so pregnant that she could not ride, as we know from Dany in this world riding late into pregnancy is not impossible and we know Lyanna could ride. Though I doubt Rhaegar wanted her exposed to his father.

As a hiding place it was not the best, it sits in a major trade rout of Dorne's and they are in an old watch tower. Now they could probably sneak past a Castle or two in a small party taking something along the lines of goat paths through the mountains. But once you stop at that tower it is visible. It's there to be seen, though it's advantage as a guard post is that being manned in a time of war would be normal. Begging the question, why wasn't it manned?

Another way to that tower is the Wyl river, but they would of had to pass house Wyl to do it. You know there is a known Wylla from Wyl? Perhaps not the Wylla one might think of, but a Wylla from Wyl is not unheard of.

I can't say the symbolism at or around the tower is very good. Night Song guards the north end of the pass, Night Song, then comes the Tower and to the south Kingsgrave. Marked by a dead king, Skyreach is little better with it's blind blue hawk, and Neds dream is more of a nightmare.

It's not all that inconspicuous of a hiding place, it's a guard tower and meant to be seen and also manned. Considering a war was going on, you might wonder why it was abandoned, but who knows. For all we know Hightower met them at Starfall, question is why bring Lyanna with just to leave her behind? Unless she was injured on the journey as she would have not been all that pregnant at the time. Then again Starfall may have been checked, Harrenhal as well. The King did want to find his son. Starfall would of been the best place to search. And Essos the best place to hide. Of course Starfall could always lie, not that this would ever happen. Seems unlikely the Tower would have had a years worth of supplies even for a small group. Though it could of been supplied by someone but then why hide there when you can hide with the people who are essentially hiding you?

I guess that's why it's called a mystery.

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16 hours ago, mattc said:

I hear what you are saying, but if it was a matter of not wanting Aerys to know he could have sent Whent and Danye into the field with Barristan and redeployed the other two in other ways if he wished. 

I get what you are saying about the security of the Kings Landing, but I still don't see the deployment of three kings guard at the Tower of Joy as logical. But the heart wants what it wants and we don't always think logically. 

Actually Rhaegar could not send Whent and Dayne anywhere except back to the tower, since we know that he spent some time at King's Landing seeing to preparations of the army.  The army was being gathered from the field, after being scattered by rebel forces, and marshaled for Rhaegar's command.  During that time it would be easy for Aerys to summon Whent, Dayne or both and asking them pointed questions that Rhaegar did not want answered.  Remember that Whent and Dayne seem to be Rhaegar's personal bodyguards, as they are with the prince when he encounters Lyanna Stark.  They appear to have spent all of the time with Rhaegar at the tower.  It is sensible that they escort him back to King's Landing when Hightower relays Aerys' summons, since it is wartime and the prince must travel through hostile territory.  It is sensible that Hightower is willing to remain as the single Kingsguard protection for Lady Lyanna, if he believes that she and Rhaegar are married, and recognizes that it would be too dangerous for her to travel.  It would also make sense for Rhaegar to instruct Whent and Dayne to not return too early to the tower to release Hightower.  (One needs to think along the lines of honestly and honorably protecting a secret, for as long as possible.) 

The final disposition of the Kingsguard is sensible.  Jaime in command at the Red Keep, having many men at arms at his disposal to protect the royal family within a castle within a keep.  Rhaegar having three to muster and command the royalist forces in the field.  And three at a remote tower, near enemy territory, to protect Lyanna and her precious, expected child. 

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11 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Not quite true (not that it really matters). It was clarified (I think in WOIAF) that males from a female line do not get a better claim than their female ancestor. So because Robert's claim would come from his grandmother, his claim cannot be better than his grandmother's claim which would come after Dany and Rhaenys and Rhaella (if they had lived). So Dany and Rhaenys and Rhaella would all come before Robert under the formal Targ succession rules because all of those females would have had a superior claim to Rhaelle, Robert's Targ grandmother.

No females come before all males are exhausted, even from extended lines.  It is a male preferential inheritance.  Female branches are less favored after the Dance.  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Targaryen

Quote

Since the Dance, House Targaryen has practiced a highly modified version of agnatic primogeniture, placing female claimants in the line of succession behind all possible male ones, even collateral relations.

So, if there is a male available, anywhere in the line, he comes before any females in the line.  A Great Council can do as it likes, they must interpret the laws, and they have dishonored the succession in the past. 

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17 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

I think MntLion generally expects that certain things are understood. "Entirely Accurate" I can't speak for him there, but I would find it strange if he wasn't referring to the more literal aspects. The number of people, the conversation, location, etc... Rather than the more symbolic. I think after awhile the longer term members such as yourself, Lion, get a little exasperated having to fully detail everything, or spell everything out and figure that amongst members who have been around long enough certain things are implied. I could be wrong, but it would seem odd in this case as we all know that dream really well and have all discussed it to death.

The dream itself on the literal side contains many omissions and is not fully accurate in filling the reader in. We don't know why they were there, we don't know how Ned found them, or what occurred in the battle, or between the battle and Lyanna's death. There is speculation and theory but that does not make the dream more or less accurate, as it does not change the text.

It's a fevre dream, even "Lord Stark" does not appear to be accurate as I doubt Lyanna would call Ned Lord Stark and it's rather tied to Ned being woken and reality bleeding into that moment of the dream.

We got a vampire reference, mists, a bat, wraiths, blue eyes of death, plenty of stuff pointing to the Joy that was that Tower. Joy would seem a very accurate name for that Nightmare. If you're Vlad the Impaler.   

Whatever he thinks is understood, his claim that Martin subtly changed the subject from Ned's dreams to everyone but Ned's dreams is patently ridiculous. 

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22 hours ago, RumHam said:

I'm not sure I get your point. People spend lots of time arguing about books that came out well before that. This doesn't really seem like the kinda thing Maritn would have changed his mind about over that last fourteen years. 

I might need to get my eyes glasses checked again but it seems to me that whoever was asking the leading questions got no conformation about nutin, therefore I can not say that Martin changed his mind about anything over the last 14 years. :mellow:

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10 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I might need to get my eyes glasses checked again but it seems to me that whoever was asking the leading questions got no conformation about nutin, therefore I can not say that Martin changed his mind about anything over the last 14 years. :mellow:

Yeah, he didn't answer the question asked. However he did point out that dreams, especially fever dreams, are not literal. Which is really more fact than opinion. That's what I was saying he wouldn't change his mind about. He's not going to turn around and reveal that the dream was an exact depiction of how it went down, wraiths and all. 

 

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Whatever he thinks is understood, his claim that Martin subtly changed the subject from Ned's dreams to everyone but Ned's dreams is patently ridiculous. 

I didn't really understand the comment so I didn't really respond to that aspect of it, rather the totally accurate aspect, as that is really all I could respond too. Wasn't sure if it was entrenchment or what the logic was behind it. So I leave that for Lion to explain. All I could address was what Martin said about the dream, the dream itself, and some of the confusion that often occurs on the boards.

But outside of that what ever clarification you would like is up to someone else, I just was addressing what I felt could be clarified nothing more. The post was also used to point out where we see literal and symbolic, thus supporting Martins comment, and allowing for more common ground and less conspiracy theory to help move the comment at hand forward from an entrenched debate to a more progressive understanding and discussion. 

Facts are still facts, and accuracy is still accuracy. We have all seen some strange posts used in order to support ones stance that sometimes move away from facts and into speculation. Those tend to be the products of debate rather than the reality of what is or is not. Restate the facts and let the other reassess their stance. Tends to work well for me.

I used to have a quote in my sig, Whatever your thinking, rethink it. It was a direct result of to many entrenched speculative debates, ie "ok posters here is what I am thinking, Jon died north of the wall and is actually a FM, and Ghost symbolizes this because Jon is a Ghost, and in Ghost, and eventually Ghost will transform into a dragon and Arya and Sansa will ride Dragon Jon. See the Dragon Bran saw was when he was in summer was actually Jon, he transforms when he sleeps, and being in summer indicates Jon will transform into a dragon while he is in Ghost. It's genius right?"  

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38 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Yeah, he didn't answer the question asked. However he did point out that dreams, especially fever dreams, are not literal. Which is really more fact than opinion. That's what I was saying he wouldn't change his mind about. He's not going to turn around and reveal that the dream was an exact depiction of how it went down, wraiths and all. 

 

I’m probably going to get hung out to dry. Here goes. Most of the people who post in this thread know the material forward and backward. That 2002 SSM that is tossed around confirms nothing.

Eddard had a waking remembrance while walking to Robert’s beside.

The royal apartments were in Maegor's Holdfast, a massive square fortress that nestled in the heart of the Red Keep behind walls twelve feet thick and a dry moat lined with iron spikes, a castle-within-a-castle. Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king's bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him. Ser Barristan's face was as pale as his armor. Ned had only to look at him to know that something was dreadfully wrong.

What I am suggesting is Eddard’s dreams are not factual, and that his remembrance holds more weight. Now I am going to run away:blush:

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On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 11:01 AM, RumHam said:

I seriously don't know how you can read that and not think the last sentence was relevant to Ned's dream. 

So, GRRM scored. 

The last sentence has a subject, that subject is "Our dreams".

The preceding sentence has a subject, that subject is Ned's dream.  Clearly the subject has been changed, in the same paragraph.  To make the connection that you seem to make, on your own, GRRM should have said, "Ned's dream, like our own".  That is the same trick that he uses in other spots, too. 

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19 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

So, GRRM scored. 

The last sentence has a subject, that subject is "Our dreams".

The preceding sentence has a subject, that subject is Ned's dream.  Clearly the subject has been changed, in the same paragraph.  To make the connection that you seem to make, on your own, GRRM should have said, "Ned's dream, like our own".  That is the same trick that he uses in other spots, too. 

Once again, this is absurd. He's speaking of dreams in general, which naturally includes the dream they were talking about in the email exchange. That's why Martin brought it up. There's no reason for him to bring up the fact that dreams are not always literal and then employ some weird trick of language to suggest that Ned's dream was literal. That makes no sense at all. 

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Once again, this is absurd. He's speaking of dreams in general, which naturally includes the dream they were talking about in the email exchange. That's why Martin brought it up. There's no reason for him to bring up the fact that dreams are not always literal and then employ some weird trick of language to suggest that Ned's dream was literal. That makes no sense at all. 

:agree:

It is by GRRM's standards a straightforward answer, to what's actually an odd question which clearly assumes R+L=J but asks whether a third party was present. Keep on reading says GRRM. And then that should be the end of it, but no, instead of leaving it at that, he entirely unprompted adds

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Note here that not only is GRRM saying that Ned's account [no-one else's] was in the context of a dream and a fever dream at that, but he is also referencing the account, the narrative, not the stuff about storms of petals, wraiths and blood red skies but the narrative of events and perhaps the order in which some of those events occurred.

 

 

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Jon is a trueborn Targaryen . A prince is not a bastard . Jon being a bastard still won't change much but him being a legit Targaryen will .

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On 6/17/2016 at 5:38 PM, aikojai said:

Jon is a trueborn Targaryen . A prince is not a bastard . Jon being a bastard still won't change much but him being a legit Targaryen will .

You're right-- it won't change much. 

If Jon is a savior/hero/king, it will be because of his deeds, not his father. 

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I think Jon's heritage will play a huge part in the outcome of the whole saga, whether it relates to the political wind or the war against WW. If being both ice and fire is needed to fight against WW then his heritage make sense. If it means for him to inherit the throne, it also makes sense. However I think he won't survive after the biggest battle against WW.. crying.

I bet we will know of his heritage being confirmed (to readers, not to the people in the book) by the wind of winter. 

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