Jump to content

Manderly?


Pies are coming

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Xarkar said:

Starting to wonder if that is exactly what "the north remembers" meant in the description.  IE the north remembers Robbs failed war.

 


With that said, I honestly do find it hard to believe any house would support the Bolton (especially now that Roose is gone).  They actively Flay their own bannermen.  Yes this may have instilled obedience, but it certainly does not make them Loyal.  I get that house Glover is not willign to help (hey he just got his castle back with the boltons help and has no time to go back to war).  But there are so many other Northern houses, it makes no sense none are willing to help.

Are they honestly all happy having a Bolton as their Leige lord?  I doubt it.  

Happy? No. But what are you gonna do? You can either obediently stay out of the affair or you can decide to join the cause of Jon Snow and his 2000 undisciplined wildlings, featuring about 400 Northerners, all the while praying that Wyman Manderly helps out.

Vs

Houses Bolton, Umber and Karstark, who combined probably have 6 times as many forces.

Also keep in mind that the Glovers fought a war with House Lannister, who are notorious for wiping out houses that rebel, they probably dont wanna face the same fate at the hands of the Boltons, especially after they've already lost so much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Red Tiger said:

Happy? No. But what are you gonna do? You can either obediently stay out of the affair or you can decide to join the cause of Jon Snow and his 2000 undisciplined wildlings, featuring about 400 Northerners, all the while praying that Wyman Manderly helps out.

Vs

Houses Bolton, Umber and Karstark, who combined probably have 6 times as many forces.

Also keep in mind that the Glovers fought a war with House Lannister, who are notorious for wiping out houses that rebel, they probably dont wanna face the same fate at the hands of the Boltons, especially after they've already lost so much.

I hate to bring up the book.  But I am confused as to why the show would change this element to such a major degree, where the Starks are going to take back Winterfell in spite of the North, because the majority of the North isn't interested or loyal.

A huge theme throughout the books is that people in the North are unbelievably loyal to the Starks.  The Wull wants to bath in Bolton blood to save Ned's little girl.  The Liddle recalls that women could walk naked down the KL when there was a Stark in Winterfell.  Manderly has been building war ships on his own and has an entire plot to get a Stark back.  Fucking hell, even Lady Dustin who, herself, hates the Starks, admits that the North loves them and that she, herself, has not forgotten the Red Wedding.

There is literally not only none of this in the show, but the opposite.  Of all the strange choices the show has made, this is the strangest.  Stranger even than marrying Sansa to Ramsay.  Turning the Stark return to Winterfell into some totally hollow victory that occurs because of Littlefinger and the Vale, I don't get it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I hate to bring up the book.  But I am confused as to why the show would change this element to such a major degree, where the Starks are going to take back Winterfell in spite of the North, because the majority of the North isn't interested or loyal.

Dont, please just dont. Pretending the books dont exist is the only thing that has gotten me through this season. I actively have to shut down parts of my brain to forget about the book versions of Robett Glover and Wyman Manderly. Else this show is unbearable. It is so bad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I hate to bring up the book.  But I am confused as to why the show would change this element to such a major degree, where the Starks are going to take back Winterfell in spite of the North, because the majority of the North isn't interested or loyal.

A huge theme throughout the books is that people in the North are unbelievably loyal to the Starks.  The Wull wants to bath in Bolton blood to save Ned's little girl.  The Liddle recalls that women could walk naked down the KL when there was a Stark in Winterfell.  Manderly has been building war ships on his own and has an entire plot to get a Stark back.  Fucking hell, even Lady Dustin who, herself, hates the Starks, admits that the North loves them and that she, herself, has not forgotten the Red Wedding.

There is literally not only none of this in the show, but the opposite.  Of all the strange choices the show has made, this is the strangest.  Stranger even than marrying Sansa to Ramsay.  Turning the Stark return to Winterfell into some totally hollow victory that occurs because of Littlefinger and the Vale, I don't get it.

The change occurs because they can't have an equal battle where Stark victory is assured, they need to have conflict.

However, that said, I completely understand the show going the way it did.  They had no choice with writing Stannis the way they did. Without Stannis, it would be fantastic and unrealistic to have Northern lords to not the act the way they did. In the book, Stannis went around gathering Northern lords and getting back lands/castles from Iron born thus getting Northern loyalty (on advice from Jon, who was a bit more politically acute than in the show)

If they just join in with Jon (a Bastard and Nights Watch possible deserter, without Robb's letter) and Sansa who if not Bolton is a Lannister now ( I mean book Robb had her disinherited even if she was forced to marry) while Starks did absolutely nothing for them but lead them into disaster. Robb's and Catelyn's missteps led to Iron Born conquering part of north and Winterfell, to Red Wedding where most of Northern lords (the loyal fathers/oldsters too boot) have been slaughtered leaving behind disenchanted sons being bitter at Robb's defeat. First thing that Bolton did - had Ramsey free Moat Caitlin instead of mucking around south like Robb 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Masha said:

The change occurs because they can't have an equal battle where Stark victory is assured, they need to have conflict.

However, that said, I completely understand the show going the way it did.  They had no choice with writing Stannis the way they did. Without Stannis, it would be fantastic and unrealistic to have Northern lords to not the act the way they did.

If they just join in with Jon (a Bastard and Nights Watch possible deserter, without Robb's letter) and Sansa who if not Bolton is a Lannister now ( I mean book Robb had her disinherited even if she was forced to marry) while Starks did absolutely nothing for them but lead them into disaster. Robb's and Catelyn's missteps led to Iron Born conquering part of north and Winterfell, to Red Wedding where most of Northern lords (the loyal fathers/oldsters too boot) have been slaughtered leaving behind disenchanted sons being bitter at Robb's defeat. First thing that Bolton did - had Ramsey free Moat Caitlin instead of mucking around south like Robb 

If that's all true, then the Starks don't deserve to get Winterfell and the rule of the North back.  They're losers, ineffectual, incompetent.  One wonders why his bannermen named him King or agreed to follow him on his quixotic quest to save his father's life in the first place, instead of telling him to fuck off, it was Ned's fault afterall, another incompetent Stark.

Which, isn't the story I have thought I was following, but maybe it is.

The story I thought I was following was going to reward the Starks for having been just lords for centuries, the story I thought I was following had a huge level of support and loyalty for the Starks, including people willing to fight and die for them, even against huge odds, and they had nothing to gain personally except honor,  because they have been just lords for centuries and the people rulling the North are turncloak mad dogs.

But maybe not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont have a problem with the North remembering the negatives that the war brought to their own respective families. Its quite clear Littlefinger will come save the day, and we have been saying that since even  before the season started. As for the Manderlys, I just hope since its plotholes anonymous these days, that they honestly just show up and fight along side with Jon. Or they appear at the end with the other northern houses and pledge themselves to Jon and name him king of the north

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

If anything the last episode showed that the North DOES remember, unfortunately that includes the negative aspects as well.

 

I'm just confused, b/c it seemed espisode was the perfect episode to bring Manderly or hint at him being seen in the 8th episode.  The synopsis stated the "North is Reminded." However, at the end of the episode I'm just confused on what they were reminded of.  Was it Glovers speech of Rob f'ing everything up.  Was it Lyanna's speech of keeping faith with the Starks.  Was it Davos's speech of the dead coming.  Was it Jon's speech to the wildlings of survival.  Was it a reminder to Sansa and Jon of how the Stark name has just lost most of its value.  Honestly, I thought we were going to conclude with a possible speech by Wymann in order to bring a large force to Jon in order to make the inevitable, surprise appearance of the Vale army in the 9th episode a little more of a surprise but idk. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Red Tiger said:

Happy? No. But what are you gonna do? You can either obediently stay out of the affair or you can decide to join the cause of Jon Snow and his 2000 undisciplined wildlings, featuring about 400 Northerners, all the while praying that Wyman Manderly helps out.

Vs

Houses Bolton, Umber and Karstark, who combined probably have 6 times as many forces.

Also keep in mind that the Glovers fought a war with House Lannister, who are notorious for wiping out houses that rebel, they probably dont wanna face the same fate at the hands of the Boltons, especially after they've already lost so much.

Then why have they been constantly telling us "the north remembers"
The old lady told Sansa this and was flayed. Its been in show titles etc. \

Yet so far, no one in the north has remembered the starks at all.

 

Unless of course it is all build up for when the Manderlays show up and give a great speech.  

 

We know one northern lord changes sides.  Could this potentially be the Umbers at the same time the Maderlays show up?  

 

We also have Ramsay saying "Do you like games little boy"... What if this is because Ramsay finds out Rickon is in on some kind of ploy? (i doubt it but maybe?)  Remember Roose saying, If a stark were to walk though those doors the entire north woudl rally?  Maybe the Umbers and Rickon take the risk of having him captive, so the north Rallies?  (ya thats stupid but this is HBO)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Xarkar said:

Then why have they been constantly telling us "the north remembers"
The old lady told Sansa this and was flayed. Its been in show titles etc. \

Yet so far, no one in the north has remembered the starks at all.

 

Unless of course it is all build up for when the Manderlays show up and give a great speech.  

 

We know one northern lord changes sides.  Could this potentially be the Umbers at the same time the Maderlays show up?  

 

We also have Ramsay saying "Do you like games little boy"... What if this is because Ramsay finds out Rickon is in on some kind of ploy? (i doubt it but maybe?)  Remember Roose saying, If a stark were to walk though those doors the entire north woudl rally?  Maybe the Umbers and Rickon take the risk of having him captive, so the north Rallies?  (ya thats stupid but this is HBO)

I guess he was wrong.  The North got three Starks: Rickon, Sansa and Jon Snow, and still not rallying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I guess he was wrong.  The North got three Starks: Rickon, Sansa and Jon Snow, and still not rallying.

Well not that we know of.
Who says they need to respond to the letters.  maybe they want to keep it a secret who knows.

 

If Mormont only sends 62 men... why the hell are there flag bearers for them on the battle field... I mean is that really needed lol.

 

I think the Vale shows up late, and then there is a tense moment where Jon/Sansa and LF have a conversation where it looks like LF is going to use the Vale forces against them, but in the end it doesnt happen.  LFs plan all along has to come in and sweep up the mess... why would he care for Sansa, (unless he thought he could marry her)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can only say what I've been saying.

The show has shown that the North is not interested in restoring the Starks to Winterfell.  It has absolutely contradicted Roose's statement(s) from last year that the North would rise for the Starks.  The majority of Houses that we have seen are either anti Stark are don't care.  Sansa and Jon's pleas have been lame and lackluster.  

I can't begin to think why the show is playing out this story in this way. It guts everything about the Starks retaking Winterfell.  But I guess most viewers don't really pay attention so when they joyously are restored and everyone is happy they will have forgotten that 2 episodes prior the Northern lords told them to fuck off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I can only say what I've been saying.

The show has shown that the North is not interested in restoring the Starks to Winterfell.  It has absolutely contradicted Roose's statement(s) from last year that the North would rise for the Starks.  The majority of Houses that we have seen are either anti Stark are don't care.  Sansa and Jon's pleas have been lame and lackluster.  

I can't begin to think why the show is playing out this story in this way. It guts everything about the Starks retaking Winterfell.  But I guess most viewers don't really pay attention so when they joyously are restored and everyone is happy they will have forgotten that 2 episodes prior the Northern lords told them to fuck off.

Maybe there were still bolten men with the Glovers, so he didnt have any option but say no.

 

Who knows.  I suspect its all just to let LF save the day with his army.  It would be hilarious if the season ended with LF killing Jon and taking WF.... 2 seasons in a row with Jon dead hahahahha

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Xarkar said:

The Manderlys have to show up at some point.  They have been name dropped far too many times to not be there.  If the Knights of the vale are the army that saves Jon/Sansa that will be rather cheesy.  

 

We know that there is a fat northern lord that will show up at some point.  The question is when.  We also know there is a northern lord who changes sides.  Is that the umbers siding with Ramsay, or is that them changing during the battle?  

 

It would be pretty pathetic if Jon attacks, gets almost destroyed, KoTV show up, Umbers change sides and the battle is over.  The umbers should then be killed on the spot (unless it was all a plan to begin with, which I dont think it is).

 

Well, Sansa had that right. The Umbers delivered Rickon to Ramsay, they have to be executed if the battle is won. And she has to do it.

4 hours ago, Dan Hayes said:

To get a messenger there he would need to travel past both Winterfel and Moat Calin. 

Brienne did just that

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do agree that the northern story from the books has changed this season and is quite disappointing but understandable as to fitting so much detail in one season. 

My thoughts on House Manderly are: 

Manderly will rock up with some other northern lords and the Vale army at the end of the battle. There was a character cast of a fat northern lord that would make a statement or some sort, he only filmed for one day. This will make perfect sense.

Why I believe this is because little finger is a schemer and at the moment is sitting at Moat Cailin, he would definitely rally some northern lords like Manderly cause that are literally right next to each other. Plus House Manderly is loyal to the Starks and have been heavily mentioned throughout this season so far. My bet is that he will appear at the end of episode 9 and 10 to declare:

Spoiler

Jon Stark "King of the North" 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I guess that's a matter of opinion.  So far, the Umbers & Karstarks actively and happily support the Boltons.  Little girl Mormont didn't care about the Starks,  she was convinced to help by a stranger from Flea Bottom because of WW.  House Glover told the Starks to fuck off, and BTW Robb Stark sucked as king, LOL.

So, I'm not sure how that can be seen as anything but the North not remembering, and the majority of houses not being willing to support the Starks.

When Manderly finally shows up as a Stark supporter, he's going to be a dead man walking, sucker, because the Starks will just get him killed immediately.

Karstark's turned on Robb originally so they're irrelevant. Chopping off their lord's head has that effect.

Umbers still make no fooookin sense.

We're going to see Manderly though, casting call called for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Xarkar said:

Well not that we know of.
Who says they need to respond to the letters.  maybe they want to keep it a secret who knows.

 

If Mormont only sends 62 men... why the hell are there flag bearers for them on the battle field... I mean is that really needed lol.

 

I think the Vale shows up late, and then there is a tense moment where Jon/Sansa and LF have a conversation where it looks like LF is going to use the Vale forces against them, but in the end it doesnt happen.  LFs plan all along has to come in and sweep up the mess... why would he care for Sansa, (unless he thought he could marry her)

The flagbearing is more about pride than numbers. Lyanna mentioned that Bear Island is very proud.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

If that's all true, then the Starks don't deserve to get Winterfell and the rule of the North back.  They're losers, ineffectual, incompetent.  One wonders why his bannermen named him King or agreed to follow him on his quixotic quest to save his father's life in the first place, instead of telling him to fuck off, it was Ned's fault afterall, another incompetent Stark.

Which, isn't the story I have thought I was following, but maybe it is.

The story I thought I was following was going to reward the Starks for having been just lords for centuries, the story I thought I was following had a huge level of support and loyalty for the Starks, including people willing to fight and die for them, even against huge odds, and they had nothing to gain personally except honor,  because they have been just lords for centuries and the people rulling the North are turncloak mad dogs.

But maybe not.

Why they followed Robb to rescue Ned? Simple, Ned had done a pretty awesome job running The North for years and in feudalism it was expected that The vassals protected their overlord.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

People sure say dues ex machina here a lot. The plot has already established that the Knights of the Vale are likely coming, and possible the Tullys as well. Them coming, after being requested to come, would not be deus ex machina. That would be the plot playing out exactly as expected. 

 

Noticed the same thing. In fact, it's as if the term deus ex machina has itself become a deus ex machina which people use to wiggle out of situations in which logic, wit, or understanding, fail them.

As for the notion that LF will betray the Starks... not a chance. Littlefinger already threatened Bronze Yohn's life once, thus Yohn & the other house leaders who also distrust LF, will jump at any chance to eliminate LF from the Vale equation. Robin Arryn sent the Knights of the Vale north for the sole purpose of helping Sansa and the Starks. Any variance to that mission on the part of LF is sure to be portrayed as treason by Bronze Yohn et al and LF would be immediately deposed. LF of course would realize this and therefore has no choice but to help the Starks and hope to reap whatever reward he can from the spoils afterwards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, SevasTra82 said:

I'll be more shocked if they cut out Howland Reed.  I mean, come on...Eddard Starks biggest supporter and closest friend...and Jon doesn't even at the very least send a raven to him?  WTF?

Howland Reed is completely absent from the books as well. Apparently his contribution to Robb's war was to send his kids to Winterfell.

But, since crannogmen are close to the children and the old gods, he might know more about the bigger picture and is saving his forces for the final battle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Not really.  In the book,the Karstarks and Dustins have personal, specific reasons to be against the Starks and the Ryswells as close relatives of Roose Bolton are along for the ride because they'll fare better.

There is nothing in the show that gives a sense of "The North fears the Boltons, but they love the Starks"  since the vast majority of Northern h houses introduced on the show are not Stark supporters.

Rickon is a prisoner of the Boltons, she should have rallied on that alone, she should have rallied to save her liege lord, Rickon Stark, but she doesn't, she rallies because Davos talks about White Walkers.

I've been waiting and hoping and pining for Manderly for 3 seasons, and now, when he finally shows up, he will be a chump.  Because he will support the Starks, who will proceed to get him and their tiny number of supporters killed.

It's a really strange way to tell the story, where we will see the Starks take back Winterfell in spite of the North, with virtually no support from the North, but will get it back because of Littlefinger and the Vale lords, who seem more willing to die for the Starks than their own bannermen.

Technically the Starks have been deposed, so their liege lord is Lord Bolton. When the northern armies were defeated they would have had to bend the knee to the king or be extinguished. And the king had made Bolton the new warden of the north. The Starks would then be usurpers, and supporting them would be treason (although many might have good reason for doing it). That is why no one is eager to give them support. Because if they do, and they lose, it would mean the end of their houses.

In practice the king would likely let them slug it out among themselves, but since Sansa (and the Starks in general) are persona non grata in the kingdom, that might not happen, and none of them want a royal army on their doorstep.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...