Black Crow Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 5 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said: I've been on board with the weirwood grove/cave o' doom as the Heart of Winter for some time. Whether the show confirmed that or not, we must wait to see, but I think they hit the mark with that part. (Not with the rest of their shenanigans though) The story behind the creation of Others I'm impatiently waiting for. Very much so. I've been arguing for a long time that the Walkers are integral to the story and not just some random threat appearing from nowhere. This is why I've suggested that in literary terms we also need to consider the Nazgul as well as the Wild Hunt. The World book certainly identifies them as men and I'm thinking in terms of their first being turned voluntarily. Whether or not they still owe allegiance to the tree-huggers remains to be see, but I suspect that they want to reclaim what was once theirs. We've speculated before that the reason why the Wildlings distrust kings is because their own failed them in the Long Night, but it may run deeper than that if their kings "turned". That, incidentally, might explain the survival of the Thenns - if the Walkers originated not in the Land of Always Winter but further south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 On 6/29/2016 at 2:02 AM, PrettyPig said: Also, just couldn't let this pass without some applause. Well done! Does the White Bull dust off his midwife skills in the next segment? Given that Ned's version famously comes from a fever dream and isn't to be taken literally, I might get around to revealing what really happened next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttering Ed Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 52 minutes ago, Black Crow said: Given that Ned's version famously comes from a fever dream and isn't to be taken literally, I might get around to revealing what really happened next. Does what happens next involve rolling papers? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 Ah no spoilers please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsuwa Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Hello, new poster, long time reader. I have a question. Ned said,"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." During the events leading up to Roberts Rebellion was Ned's mother Lyarra alive. She is not mentioned that I know of. Rickon and Brandon in KL, Lyanna missing and Ned in the Vale. Who was, or was there a Stark in Winterfell? Could the lack of a Stark in Winterfell be the missing "trigger"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 I think Catelyn was there (Stark by marriage) with baby Robb, and maybe Benjen was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 4 hours ago, Tatsuwa said: Hello, new poster, long time reader. I have a question. Ned said,"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." During the events leading up to Roberts Rebellion was Ned's mother Lyarra alive. She is not mentioned that I know of. Rickon and Brandon in KL, Lyanna missing and Ned in the Vale. Who was, or was there a Stark in Winterfell? Could the lack of a Stark in Winterfell be the missing "trigger"? Wecome to Heresy The short answer is that we don't know. In fact until the World Book came out we didn't even know Ned's mother was named Lyarra and in response to questions scenting a possible mystery GRRM famously answered that Ned's mother was Lady Stark - which I interpret to mean that he hadn't bothered to figure that one out because she wasn't important until it was time to fill out the Stark family tree for the book. As to the Stark in Winterfell though its specifically mentioned [either in text or an SSM - I forget] that Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the rebellion and presumably in the events leading up to it, just as Bran filled in later while Robb was off to war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 1 hour ago, House Cambodia said: I think Catelyn was there (Stark by marriage) with baby Robb, and maybe Benjen was there. Benjen, as I've just responded. Catelyn wasn't there until afterwards and in fact Ned had returned there with Jon before she arrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodx Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 I start to think how prophecies work on this series,just remembers,Ned found a She Wolf death with a Stag wound in the serie's beginning, but we know that Joffrey is a Lannister and his execution was made by payne,what I want to say is : in a certain way, Ned was killed by both Robert and Stannis,a example : Just imagine that I says that Bran cut's Jaime's hand,We know that not,but Bran's fall triggered the entire serie's events,because of that Jaime's hand was cut by Bran, I hope you understand... We think that the Valoquar is Jaime,but even if was,don't necessary means that He will do directilly,the prophecy can also means that Aerys's death triggered Cersey's fall in the future trough butterfly effect ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 Something which occurs to me, which I don't think has been discussed before, is whether the trigger was Aerys' execution of Rickard [and Brandon] Stark. Back in Aegon's day, Torrhen Stark knelt to the Targaryen conqueror. We don't really know why - there was that business of the weirwood arrows and an intention to slay dragons - so was it just a simple submission or was there a pact of Ice and Fire - a pact broken by Aerys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsuwa Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Thank you. Sorry mixed up the rebellion and the start of ASOIAF , my mind placed Benjen in the NW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 3 hours ago, Black Crow said: Something which occurs to me, which I don't think has been discussed before, is whether the trigger was Aerys' execution of Rickard [and Brandon] Stark. Back in Aegon's day, Torrhen Stark knelt to the Targaryen conqueror. We don't really know why - there was that business of the weirwood arrows and an intention to slay dragons - so was it just a simple submission or was there a pact of Ice and Fire - a pact broken by Aerys? Not sure if there was a recent trigger or we are just seeing the effects of long term events. Craster has been giving away his sons for 20 or 30 years so their forces have been probably growing for at least that long. Jon Snow's birth might be an important event as it is the late fullfillment of the Pact of Ice and Fire signed during the Dance of Dragons. The WW could be Stark loyalists supporting his claim :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 6 hours ago, Black Crow said: Something which occurs to me, which I don't think has been discussed before, is whether the trigger was Aerys' execution of Rickard [and Brandon] Stark. Back in Aegon's day, Torrhen Stark knelt to the Targaryen conqueror. We don't really know why - there was that business of the weirwood arrows and an intention to slay dragons - so was it just a simple submission or was there a pact of Ice and Fire - a pact broken by Aerys? The various 'triggers' have been well discussed, but I can't remember which threads! There are. however, possibly two separate 'triggers' (i.e. reactivations of the Others) to consider. 1. Their reactivation after 6000-8000 years of hibernation (of course, it's not a given that they WERE non-active all that time; they might just have been milling about in the Land of Always Winter) 2. Their threat to hit the Wall and cross over. It's possible that Mance Rayder and Craster were responding to threats to the wildlings north of the Wall that weren't actually a threat to Westeros beyond the Wall. It's not even certain that the opening of GoT indicated a threat to the South as NW rangers were operating too far north. I'm still attracted by the idea expressed some months ago that the event that triggered the Others to decide to attack Men south of the Wall was Stannis and Melisandre rocking up like the US Cavalry to rout the Wildlings - with R'hllor banners. But if we want earlier dates we have a range of options - Jon's birth, Dany's birth, hatching eggs and others. The one i like best is the possible failure of the Starks for the first time in 6-8000 years to fail to consecrate the ldest son at the Winterfell Heart Tree (i.e. Robb being consecrated at Riverrun) and/or all the Stark kids being of impure stock (i.e. Catelyn not being of First Men blood). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 I can't see it being down to Stannis and Mel. They went up there precisely because appeals were being made for help against the blue-eyed lot. Indeed Mel hadn't a clue what was going on until she was shown the letter from Castle Black. Whatever triggered it happened long before that. Here I'm mindful of Mance Rayder spending five years trying to pull the Wildling clans together. I'm not taking that as a precise estimate, but it suggests that the threat was starting to be recognised at least five years before that. How far back remains to be seen since some needed more convincing than others, but if for the sake of argument we say that the threat was known five years before its reasonable to assume [if Mance is telling the truth] that trouble had been building before that, its not stretching things to suggest that the first stirrings may date back another 10 years to the burning of Rickard Stark thus breaking of the pact of Ice and Fire made when Torrhen knelt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amoracchius Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 9 hours ago, Black Crow said: Something which occurs to me, which I don't think has been discussed before, is whether the trigger was Aerys' execution of Rickard [and Brandon] Stark. Back in Aegon's day, Torrhen Stark knelt to the Targaryen conqueror. We don't really know why - there was that business of the weirwood arrows and an intention to slay dragons - so was it just a simple submission or was there a pact of Ice and Fire - a pact broken by Aerys? Very interesting, but I'm inclined to go back a bit further. I've been wondering if Howland Reed's visit to the Isle of Faces didn't inadvertently trigger something. Right after leaving the place where the Pact between the COTF and the First Men was signed, he attends the tourney at Harrenhal and, through his encounter with the squires, set in motion Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 4 minutes ago, Amoracchius said: Very interesting, but I'm inclined to go back a bit further. I've been wondering if Howland Reed's visit to the Isle of Faces didn't inadvertently trigger something. Right after leaving the place where the Pact between the COTF and the First Men was signed, he attends the tourney at Harrenhal and, through his encounter with the squires, set in motion Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna. Arguably yes, but only I think in so far as that led to the burning of Lord Rickard - a more decisive act and symbolic in that Fire rather than an executioner's axe was used to destroy him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Are you trying to figure out when magic was released? Or what event led to magic being released? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 Looking at a possible event of sufficient magnitude to trigger a "slow burn" release of the magic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 OK I'm off to Scouts for the next few hours, so this seems a suitable point to end Heresy 187 and move on to discuss this possible trigger on Heresy 188. See you over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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