Heresy 187

[Black Crow]

4 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Raising the wall to stop the Andales doesn't make sense.   The whole north is mostly first men, even South of the wall.  The Andales would not have made it that far,  even without a wall.

Ah nobody's suggesting the Wall was raised to stop the Andals. It goes back long before they tooled up. Their involvement comes later and I refer you to the fourth post on page 4 for a possible explanation that might make some sense.

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I'll agree with this bit. There's obviously a question of chickens and eggs, but given the manipulation involved I strongly suspect that the egg or rather eggs came first and that the old powers are awakening in response to that threat

Tyrion mentioned that the Valaryians knew about Westerous but it is strange they never invaded before Aegon.  I believe somehow the conquest woke the Others.

[Black Crow]

Possibly, but if so 300 years is a long time getting out of bed, which is why I'm be more inclined to look at Danaerys the Dragonlord and her eggs rather than going back that far.

As to Tyrion's remark, we did touch on it relatively recently, noting the similarity to a remark [don't remember the source] about how the Romans didn't go to Ireland despite knowing the gold was there, and what was noted as being of possible relevance was that Irelamnd was then reputed to be the island of the Dead

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

It's as Armstark said. Even Bran knows that when Old Nan says "white walkers" that she means Others, and the World Book also uses white walkers interchangeably with Others; clearly, in Westeros, it's known that the white walkers in legend lead armies of the slain against men during the Long Night.

Why would Mormont be ignorant of this fact? Why would he immediately bring up the Long Night, if he didn't specifically find rumors of the WWs troubling? I would never call the interpretation you present impossible, I just think it's the less natural fit for the information we have.

There's also the fact that the return - in the sense that they're being created once again - of the WWs is a better thematic parallel to the return of the dragons; the dragons didn't come back because it was their destined time, they came back because someone brought them back. I would suggest that the situation is the same for the Others--it's not yet clear how or why, but someone stirred that old magic awake.

While I too believe the characters understand the Others as the White Walkers, I would include the people creating the White Walkers as being the Others, even though the mummer's version shows the Children creating the White Walkers, which I am also open to. That being said I agree that Mormont is connecting the Others to the White Walkers. He may be shocked that they may actually be real, but I don't think he's poo-pooing the reports. On the contrary, I think he believes them.

The reason why we have direwolves, dragons, and white walkers is because magic has been returned. The warding that was holding the door that was shut upon it has come unraveled. How that happened hasn't been confirmed. IMO there are at least two explanations:

1) Euron removed the ward so that he could take Westeros with dragons.

2) Bran/Bloodraven removed the ward to utilize the white walkers and wights to defeat the Andals, wrest control of the Seven Kingdoms, and return the kingship to the King in the North.

I'm leaning towards #2.

[Black Crow]

12 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

On the contrary, I think he believes them.

 

He believes them certainly, but the point I'm making is that until that point he wasn't regarding them as a threat and until that point had no reason to regard them as a threat. This as I say is underlined by the fact that we readers don't know who the white walkers - and don't connect them to the lot who scragged Ser Waymar - until later in the book when Old Nan tells her bed-time story.

[Matthew.]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

He may be shocked that they may actually be real, but I don't think he's poo-pooing the reports. On the contrary, I think he believes them.

I agree that he believes the reports. My impression of that scene was that, had that same supposed WW spotting come in several years earlier, Mormont might have dismissed it in the same way that Tyrion dismisses the mermen; not because he doesn't believe WWs are a threat, but because he doesn't believe they're real (or still around).

Instead, the sighting is a part of a disturbing trend: direwolves, the wildlings being pushed to the south by something, and finally Royce's disappearance. To me, this is not "Oh, the white walkers of the wood? Sure, you see them every once in a while, no big deal," it's "the white walkers that I'd always thought were long dead or legendary have come again, and we're not prepared to perform our true duty."

In addition to the conversation with Tyrion, Mormont reasserts later in aGoT that he believes this is the LN come again:
 

Quote

"Spare me your but's, boy," Lord Mormont interrupted. "I would not be sitting here were it not for you and that beast of yours. You fought bravely … and more to the point, you thought quickly. Fire! Yes, damn it. We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered. The Long Night has come before. Oh, eight thousand years is a good while, to be sure … yet if the Night's Watch does not remember, who will?"

Again, there's lost knowledge, but there's no confusion about who the enemy is, and what they're connected to in legend. I'll go back to Lord Eddard's comment about how no living man has seen the Others in 8,000 years, and point out again that the Watch isn't some isolated organization; they recruit throughout the realm, and many of the leaders are the sons of important Houses. Hell, the maester at the Wall is a man who could have been king.

Surely these noble sons would have told their own households that the WWs are still around at various times over the last 8,000 years, and the discovery on Aemon's part that the WWs are real should have been an incredibly noteworthy event, in scholarly terms--so why the hell is there so much skepticism around the Others?

IMO, the best answer is because they've only recently returned; it's not just that nobody was raising the dead, nobody was even raising new white walkers.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Tyrion mentioned that the Valaryians knew about Westerous but it is strange they never invaded before Aegon.  I believe somehow the conquest woke the Others.

While I don't agree with the interpretation that the Others are building up as a countermeasure to the dragons, it is fair to point out that Dany's invasion is likely to have a more dangerous context than Aegons. Aegon was not a revolutionary, and was largely content to allow local government, local custom, and local religion to remain in place, with the caveat that he's now at the top of the food chain; this is especially clear with the North where, for all intents and purposes, all that changed was that the King of the North became the Lord of the North, while wielding a nearly identical level of power.

Dany, on the other hand, is bringing Dotharki, who are arguably even more of a problem than the dragons. With the dragons, we have evidence that they're not incompatible with civilization, regardless of their terrifying potential. The Dothraki, on the other hand, are nomadic pillagers, so what's going to happen after Dany "wins?" Will they set down their arakhs and become farmers?

While Dany's path in the immediate future seems decidedly more dangerous to Westeros, I'm still not convinced that's the end point of her journey; I think there are certain bits of foreshadowing in the books, and even the show - such as their version of the HoTU - that communicate the idea that Dany could be the ruin of Westeros, but it's not inevitable--eventually, someone in this series has to use their 'power' responsibly, rather than perpetuate the cycle of revenge and entitlement.

Edit: Specifically, I think the message (to Dany) of the show's version of the HoTU was that she must set aside her desire for the Iron Throne.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Tyrion mentioned that the Valaryians knew about Westerous but it is strange they never invaded before Aegon.  I believe somehow the conquest woke the Others.

IMO they were invited by the Children to control the fanatical Andals, as well as the Ironborn who were cutting down weirwoods to build Harrenhal.

1 minute ago, Matthew. said:

I agree that he believes the reports. My impression of that scene was that, had that same supposed WW spotting come in several years earlier, Mormont might have dismissed it in the same way that Tyrion dismisses the mermen; not because he doesn't believe WWs are a threat, but because he doesn't believe they're real (or still around).

Instead, the sighting is a part of a disturbing trend: direwolves, the wildlings being pushed to the south by something, and finally Royce's disappearance. To me, this is not "Oh, the white walkers of the wood? Sure, you see them every once in a while, no big deal," it's "the white walkers that I'd always thought were long dead or legendary have come again, and we're not prepared to perform our true duty."

In addition to the conversation with Tyrion, Mormont reasserts later in aGoT that he believes this is the LN come again:
 

Again, there's lost knowledge, but there's no confusion about who the enemy is, and what they're connected to in legend. I'll go back to Lord Eddard's comment about how no living man has seen the Others in 8,000 years, and point out again that the Watch isn't some isolated organization; they recruit throughout the realm, and many of the leaders are the sons of important Houses. Hell, the maester at the Wall is a man who could have been king.

Surely these noble sons would have told their own households that the WWs are still around at various times over the last 8,000 years, and the discovery on Aemon's part that the WWs are real should have been an incredibly noteworthy event, in scholarly terms--so why the hell is there so much skepticism around the Others?

IMO, the best answer is because they've only recently returned; it's not just that nobody was raising the dead, nobody was even raising new white walkers.

Before magic was contained there were white walkers and wights. When magic was contained there were no white walkers nor wights. Now that magic has been released again, there are white walkers and wights again. The religion of the Ironborn is based on an old abuse of the old gods. The practice of drowning and resuscitating their followers is in memory of their past ability to raise the dead before magic was contained. It's kind of like the Christian ceremony of communion. "Do this in memory of me", the priest or pastor will say before offering the communal wine and bread.

[Black Crow]

26 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Dany, on the other hand, is bringing Dotharki, who are arguably even more of a problem than the dragons. With the dragons, we have evidence that they're not incompatible with civilization, regardless of their terrifying potential. The Dothraki, on the other hand, are nomadic pillagers, so what's going to happen after Dany "wins?" Will they set down their arakhs and become farmers?
 

Not bloody likely is the short answer and in support of this argument its worth noting that although the dragons themselves are included in the synopsis, the threat to Westeros posed by Danaerys the last of the Dragonlords is not her winged beasties but her Dothraki horde

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Possibly, but if so 300 years is a long time getting out of bed, which is why I'm be more inclined to look at Danaerys the Dragonlord and her eggs rather than going back that far.

Craster was sacrificing his sons long before Daenerys hatched her eggs.  In fact, Craster is a big question I have about the timelines.  Something happened at Whitetree, so the sacrifices could have been going on before he was born.

 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I agree that he believes the reports. My impression of that scene was that, had that same supposed WW spotting come in several years earlier, Mormont might have dismissed it in the same way that Tyrion dismisses the mermen; not because he doesn't believe WWs are a threat, but because he doesn't believe they're real (or still around).

Instead, the sighting is a part of a disturbing trend: direwolves, the wildlings being pushed to the south by something, and finally Royce's disappearance. To me, this is not "Oh, the white walkers of the wood? Sure, you see them every once in a while, no big deal," it's "the white walkers that I'd always thought were long dead or legendary have come again, and we're not prepared to perform our true duty."

In addition to the conversation with Tyrion, Mormont reasserts later in aGoT that he believes this is the LN come again:
 

Again, there's lost knowledge, but there's no confusion about who the enemy is, and what they're connected to in legend. I'll go back to Lord Eddard's comment about how no living man has seen the Others in 8,000 years, and point out again that the Watch isn't some isolated organization; they recruit throughout the realm, and many of the leaders are the sons of important Houses. Hell, the maester at the Wall is a man who could have been king.

Surely these noble sons would have told their own households that the WWs are still around at various times over the last 8,000 years, and the discovery on Aemon's part that the WWs are real should have been an incredibly noteworthy event, in scholarly terms--so why the hell is there so much skepticism around the Others?

IMO, the best answer is because they've only recently returned; it's not just that nobody was raising the dead, nobody was even raising new white walkers.

Both Eddard and Mormont's reaction to the white walkers is solid evidence that people don't "see them every once in a while", and most people don't believe they still exist.  That doesn't mean a few isolated individuals (Craster or the people at Whitetree) couldn't be keeping a secret.  

Direwolves are entirely different - people are surprised by where they are, not that they still exist.  Rangers might "see them every once in a while".

[Armstark]

Dany could of course always shatter the old order and create a throne that is even higher than the Iron Throne .

In the end the King of the Seven Kingdoms might just be one of her many vassals. Surely there will be a place for the surviving Dothraki somewhere in her vast empire.

 

Aegon the Conquerer reborn. 

[Melifeather]

Consider the Ironborn's faith of the Drowned God. Isn’t it interesting that the Children once called down their hammer of waters to defeat the First Men and the Ironborn's god is drowned? Their practice of drowning and resuscitating believers is a ritual that is repeated in memory of a historical ability to raise the dead. This is evidence that they are connected to the Others, and the hammer of waters was just one attempt to defeat them.

 

[House Cambodia]

I've been mulling over the claim that dragonsteel was used to defeat the Others. It would appear to be an obvious anachronism since we know that the First Men used bronze, thus there was no iron or steel in WESTEROS at the time of the Long Night.

So, can you help me out with some speculative timelines here; I want to explore the heretical notion that during said Long night, Andals fought the Others on the north coast of Essos.

Look at what WOIAF says about the prehistory of Lorath, the city on an island off the north coast of Essos in the Shivering Sea. At some undetermined time the prehistoric Hairy Men, successors of the indigenous mazemakers were slaughtered by iron-weapon wielding Andals. When? (The indigenous Lorathians left no evidence of themselves other than their mazes - which I suspect are very akin to what I believe the Children have build under Westeros. There are hints they were the product of breeding between giants and Men? Children?)

We know the Long Night affected Essos, and an Other-bearing Winter could have included the north coast of Essos. Were there Andals with knowledge of iron and steel operating during the Long Night on Essos? WOIAF says that the Andals existed for 'thousands of years' before hitting Westeros. Well, they hit Westeros a mere TWO thousand years after the Long Night, so I'd say they were already well established in Andalos and conquering their nearest neighbours by the time the Long Night happened (i.e. Andal invasion of Westeros, 6000BC, Long Night 8000BC).

So, my contention is that in the north of Essos Andals with dragonsteel swords could have combatted the Others during the Long Night.

[Black Crow]

17 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Craster was sacrificing his sons long before Daenerys hatched her eggs.  In fact, Craster is a big question I have about the timelines.  Something happened at Whitetree, so the sacrifices could have been going on before he was born.

 

Yeah but the point of the discussion on the previous page is that it isn't just Craster's boys who are disturbing Mormont's sleep. What's new are the dead, and all the other signs and portents which are manifesting themselves as the story opens

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I've been mulling over the claim that dragonsteel was used to defeat the Others. It would appear to be an obvious anachronism since we know that the First Men used bronze, thus there was no iron or steel in WESTEROS at the time of the Long Night.

So, can you help me out with some speculative timelines here; I want to explore the heretical notion that during said Long night, Andals fought the Others on the north coast of Essos.

Look at what WOIAF says about the prehistory of Lorath, the city on an island off the north coast of Essos in the Shivering Sea. At some undetermined time the prehistoric Hairy Men, successors of the indigenous mazemakers were slaughtered by iron-weapon wielding Andals. When? (The indigenous Lorathians left no evidence of themselves other than their mazes - which I suspect are very akin to what I believe the Children have build under Westeros. There are hints they were the product of breeding between giants and Men? Children?)

We know the Long Night affected Essos, and an Other-bearing Winter could have included the north coast of Essos. Were there Andals with knowledge of iron and steel operating during the Long Night on Essos? WOIAF says that the Andals existed for 'thousands of years' before hitting Westeros. Well, they hit Westeros a mere TWO thousand years after the Long Night, so I'd say they were already well established in Andalos and conquering their nearest neighbours by the time the Long Night happened (i.e. Andal invasion of Westeros, 6000BC, Long Night 8000BC).

So, my contention is that in the north of Essos Andals with dragonsteel swords could have combatted the Others during the Long Night.

The First Men came over with bronze swords, but that's not to prevent them as time goes on from acquiring steel ones by trade long before the Andals brought the skill over with them.

GRRM actually addresses the Long Night in Essos in this 1999 SSM:

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

Mr Martin, why does Westeros seem the only place effected by the Others and the long winters? The other parts of the world seem not to care.

GRRM: Westeros is not the only place affected, but it's affected most strongly, because it's the only landmass that extends that far north. The other continent is bounded to the north by an icy polar sea.

[House Cambodia]

So it didn't freeze over. Interesting, thanks.

[Black Crow]

20 hours ago, Armstark said:

Surely there will be a place for the surviving Dothraki somewhere in her vast empire.

Internal security 

[wolfmaid7]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Internal security 

Har!!!

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Yeah but the point of the discussion on the previous page is that it isn't just Craster's boys who are disturbing Mormont's sleep. What's new are the dead, and all the other signs and portents which are manifesting themselves as the story opens

Actually it occurs to me that we may be able to narrow things down a little. The story, obviously, opens with Ser Waymar getting scragged by some of Craster's boys. Various things follow with improbable swiftness, but we need to allow at least a year between that and the Great Ranging. At that point when Jon joins the Wildlings he learns that Mance has spent five years trying to pull them together under his leadership. Its implied he was rallying them against the threat from the blue-eyed lot from the outset. I'm not convinced this was actually the case but it does provide an envelope for when things may have started to happen - not the first appearance of Craster's boys but everything coming together.

And then on the other side we have whatever Rugen/Varys and Illyrio are up to and the question of whether the dragon eggs are accidental; a gift with unintended consequences or whether they are integral to what they are planning. 

Either way, although the roots might go deep, this is all very recent.