HexMachina Posted September 4, 2016 Author Share Posted September 4, 2016 I dont see where the show made "trashy fluff for the masses." Even the criticisms you've laid out don't point to that. Also, you talked about the shows "trashy roots". Since its roots and source material is drawn from 19th century gothic literature, yeah, that's pretty much what you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 I was referring to the original term for Penny Dreadful books, the cheap mass printed stories of the past that entertained the masses. If I was to compare the standalone episode from season one , a wonderful haunting bit of horror, to naked bald witches running around doing Kung fu , then it's like two different shows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Just finished ep4 of S3, the standalone Eva Green episode, which is usually the highlight of every year. I thought this was again a wonderful hour of television, if slightly slower and less rewatchable than the previous ones. However it did solidify in my mind what I thought the problem with S2 really was. This episode was about the inner workings of Eva's mind, and her connection to the dark lord and her, I guess past lives. This to me is the most interesting exciting element of the show. You have Lucifer himself, a fallen angel wanting to contact Vanessa and bring her back on board, and now you have I guess his brother Dracula doing the same. Its a fantastic concept full of deep powerful religious overtones, haunting and mysterious and open to interpretation. I found it wonderful in the first season, when Vanessa was locked in the room alone.. the crucifix etc. Compare that to season 2's story. Instead of being directly contacted by Lucifer himself, Lucifer decides to contract out the job to an old lady in a spooky house, who has 3 sexy daughters. The devil stops really being involved, except by being 'on the phone' to the head witch. Instead of Vanessa being the reincarnation of one of the forces of ultimate evil, Vanessa decides to have a short holiday on the moors learning how to be a witch. She goes from being innately full of unknown levels of power to being someone who learned a few spells. One of those stories is powerful and intriguing and taking steps in a new direction showing genuine scale, and the other is a small scale story that is hardly original and basically lays its cards on the table for you. Its no wonder I was less than impressed by it. Worse still, so far in S3 (havent seen the rest so might be wrong) but you could basically skip S2 altogether in Vanessas story and it wouldn't be much different. I'm yet to watch the whole season so things might change, but so far I'm enjoying it a hell of a lot more than S2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted September 5, 2016 Author Share Posted September 5, 2016 You could skip season 2 and nothing would change? Did you miss the crippling depression in episode one? The fact she has lost her faith? That she is seeing Dr. Seward? That she is alone because Ethan and Malcom have left London? Season 3 would be drastically different for Vanessa without season 2 Lucifer in season two is all about trying to psychologically break Vanessa. He has no physical form, as is pretty clearly established in S3 E4, yet he still needs Vanessa to come to him willingly. So he needs to break her, and to do that he needs to use intermediaries; Evelyn Poole and the other witches. You continue to summarise what happened in season 2 flippantly and the way you are doing so makes me wonder whether you watched it properly or it was more of a "I'll have it on in the background" thing. Nothing about Vanessa at the Cut-Wife's cottage says "short holiday" and it's directly connected to Mina so I really don't know what you are talking about at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said: You could skip season 2 and nothing would change? Did you miss the crippling depression in episode one? The fact she has lost her faith? That she is seeing Dr. Seward? That she is alone because Ethan and Malcom have left London? Season 3 would be drastically different for Vanessa without season 2 Thinking more about it, most of the storylines could easily have skipped season 2 without too much of a break, only minor changes could have make it work. - By the end of S1 Vanessa is traumatised by being possessed, killing a priest. She goes to rescue Mina but is unsuccessful. Thats a good place to be cripplingly depressed no? A good point for her to go to a psychiatrist. Especially seeing as there was a reveal in S1 that she was sent to an insane asylum, a good point for her to show that flashback. Instead out of nowhere there is some revelation about witches and cutwives, which doesn't quite fit with anything in season 1. The events of S3 seem to directly relate to those of S1, and nothing in S2 really seems to make much difference. Lucifer was talking directly to Vanessa in 1, didn't bother in 2, then went back to doing it in 3, doesn't make sense. I mean what is actually happens in S2 that progresses Vanessa's story along all that much? I'd argue there really isn't very much at all. You say she is alone because Ethan and Malcolm have left london but... - At the end of S1 Ethan is approached by Pinkertons and told to go home. He didnt, and instead S2 is spent having witches chasing Ethan, not getting him, and by the end of S2 hes on his way to the US anyway. It didn't change anything really. Yes now he has a witch next to him but again you could easily write that out. - Sir Malcolm is depressed because of a number of things, one of them being the wife he didn't love is dead. This causes him to leave the country. BUT surely the one thing to make him leave the country would be Mina dying. Thats a far better opportunity for him to go. Instead he spends S2 in a sort of coma, doing very little at all, waking up at the end and putting himself back into the same position he started in. You see, that S2 seems like filler, because you really could cut most of it and the characters would be in the exact same places. I could point to Jon Clares story, which was basically a rehash of S1, and he ends up leaving too. The only real characters who S2 seem to affect in any meaningful way are Victor and Lily.. possibly Dorian. But again this seems like a subplot that isn't that vital to the overall story, so why not cut it. I'm almost convinced that they weren't expecting a second season, that they had a plan for S1 and S3 but didn't know how to fill in the gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsug Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 I just found this thread, and I wanna say HOLY SHIT. This show was amazing. I found the character of Vanessa to be perfect and tragic and beautiful in every way. Ugh I cannot say enough. I am truly heart broken that she died, but I'm glad it was on her own terms, and that she finally was at peace. Lol I could write a fuckin novel about how much I loved this show but none of you want to see that lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 I recently finished watching this on Netflix. I enjoyed it quite a bit overall as did my girlfriend. I liked all the characters with one glaring exception - I hated the John Clare character A LOT. Scrolling through the thread briefly, I see I'm perhaps in the minority there. I liked the aspect of the character when he was a live human orderly tending to Vanessa, but the emo, poetry spouting, self-conscious, self-pitying, un-dead monster - UGH, what the fuck man. Cheeseball. I did not like that take on Frankenstein's monster at all. The way it was realized made the character feel very much like an adolescent reject in a bad high school movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceChampion Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 4 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said: So they have more story to tell after all, and they wanted to continue it and wasn't allowed by Showtime. Prediction: resurrection of Vanessa Ives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martini Sigil Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 To me, this was the most frustrating show since Deadwood... I thought it was getting steadily better..... S1 was good.... S2 was very, very good.,,, and S3 was shaping up to be really interesting, if for no other reason than to set up an amazing S4.... and then they ended it.... and it seemed like they rushed the ending like they decided to call all of the actors back to film the finale because S4 wasn't coming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 On 31/10/2016 at 3:03 PM, S John said: I recently finished watching this on Netflix. I enjoyed it quite a bit overall as did my girlfriend. I liked all the characters with one glaring exception - I hated the John Clare character A LOT. Scrolling through the thread briefly, I see I'm perhaps in the minority there. I liked the aspect of the character when he was a live human orderly tending to Vanessa, but the emo, poetry spouting, self-conscious, self-pitying, un-dead monster - UGH, what the fuck man. Cheeseball. I did not like that take on Frankenstein's monster at all. The way it was realized made the character feel very much like an adolescent reject in a bad high school movie. Mostly I just hated the way he looked. What were they thinking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 On 17/09/2016 at 3:46 AM, dsug said: I just found this thread, and I wanna say HOLY SHIT. This show was amazing. I found the character of Vanessa to be perfect and tragic and beautiful in every way. Ugh I cannot say enough. I am truly heart broken that she died, but I'm glad it was on her own terms, and that she finally was at peace. Lol I could write a fuckin novel about how much I loved this show but none of you want to see that lol I would like to see it lmao bloody loved this show even if reason three let me down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: Mostly I just hated the way he looked. What were they thinking! Yea he looked like a Goth kid wearing white corpse paint and black lipstick. Any time there was a close-up it was very obvious he was wearing make-up. I also didn't think that he was really all that grotesque for all his moping about being a monster. He's got a scar on his head and he's pale? Big deal. But really it was just his cheeseball lines that killed the character for me. His hopeless pining was pathetic. One particular scene that stands out is when Dr. F first resurrects Lily: John Clare: [Mr. Clare looks into Lily's eyes] I want to fill her heart with poetry. Dr. Victor Frankenstein: Let me fill her head with language first. Honestly, it will be a process. You'll understand that. She must learn the actions of living anew. Leave me to it. I've had experience. John Clare: I've waited so long. John Clare: [Lily tries to touch Mr. Clare's hand as he smiles] She needs poetry. FUCKIN' *BARF* MAN. She needs Poetry? Jesus Christ. Just..... uuuugggghhhh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 12 minutes ago, S John said: Yea he looked like a Goth kid wearing white corpse paint and black lipstick. Any time there was a close-up it was very obvious he was wearing make-up. I also didn't think that he was really all that grotesque for all his moping about being a monster. He's got a scar on his head and he's pale? Big deal. But really it was just his cheeseball lines that killed the character for me. His hopeless pining was pathetic. One particular scene that stands out is when Dr. F first resurrects Lily: John Clare: [Mr. Clare looks into Lily's eyes] I want to fill her heart with poetry. Dr. Victor Frankenstein: Let me fill her head with language first. Honestly, it will be a process. You'll understand that. She must learn the actions of living anew. Leave me to it. I've had experience. John Clare: I've waited so long. John Clare: [Lily tries to touch Mr. Clare's hand as he smiles] She needs poetry. FUCKIN' *BARF* MAN. She needs Poetry? Jesus Christ. Just..... uuuugggghhhh. LMAO yeah he only started to really grow on me in season 3 when we get his human backstory. Vanessa saved him for me as well, the way she looked on him so kindly. I don't think the monster is all that horribly grotesque in the book either though to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said: LMAO yeah he only started to really grow on me in season 3 when we get his human backstory. Vanessa saved him for me as well, the way she looked on him so kindly. I don't think the monster is all that horribly grotesque in the book either though to be honest. Yea I did like him as the orderly helping Vanessa, and I agree that he was OK by the end of the third season. But it was a rocky road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 47 minutes ago, S John said: Yea I did like him as the orderly helping Vanessa, and I agree that he was OK by the end of the third season. But it was a rocky road. I agree lmao at first I was just like UHH dude SHUT UP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 He was such a disappointment as the first monster who died season one was far more interesting a take on it. the monster being a mopey goth is laughable and very hard to take seriously. One of many reasons I hated season 2 as they doubled down on his angst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsug Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 i hated john clare but i think that was the point. his fucking cruelty and entitlement was just so obnoxious. when lily went on a date with dorian he literally attacked her. not a great way to pick up chicks, caliban. overall, i think he was a giant pussy and i hated him. but, as i said, i'm 1000% sure that was the writer's intention. same with victor. arrogant, super creepy, possessive of lily. his idea of "oh i will kidnap lily, torture her, then she will love me again. brilliant brilliant briiiliant!" was just arrogance personified, but i've read the original shelley novel, and i can say he was very righteous and arrogant in that too, so once again, i trust the writer's decision. and also yall are crazy. madame kali was one of the best villains on tv in recent memory if you ask me. it was refreshing to see a woman who was genuinely a terrible person, and not some tortured character or "anti-heroine." They avoided all the tropes that female antagonists usually fall into, in this day and age: tragic backstory, abuse survivor, secret heart of gold, etc etc. She sold her soul to the devil because she wanted to and because she thought it would benefit her. She treated her daughter like shit, she killed babies, and she spent hundreds of years torturing people and ruining their lives. and looking damn good while doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyroclasticFlow Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 I miss Sembene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 Finally! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M0836E3/ref=cm_sw_su_dp Eta; huh, the link redirects because I'm in the U.K. But S2+S3 soundtrack release 16th December. Hope this will be available in the U.K. Too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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