Sansa's cloaks of many colors

[YOVMO]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 6:34 PM, Elisabetta Duò said:

…the singers sing only part of the truth,

correct. At one of the great moments when Ygritte is telling Jon Snow the Bael and the Bard song (first she mentions how the girl loved Bael but then says, brilliantly, "to tell the truth, all those girls in them songs Bael wrote seemed to love him" or something like that) but Jon basically has the auto react of saying that the story is not true. Ygritte tells him it is true  "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine." That one line, I feel, always summed up just the attitude to take towards singers tales.

[Elisabetta Duò]

23 hours ago, YOVMO said:

correct. At one of the great moments when Ygritte is telling Jon Snow the Bael and the Bard song (first she mentions how the girl loved Bael but then says, brilliantly, "to tell the truth, all those girls in them songs Bael wrote seemed to love him" or something like that) but Jon basically has the auto react of saying that the story is not true. Ygritte tells him it is true  "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine." That one line, I feel, always summed up just the attitude to take towards singers tales.

I didn't remember that line but I agree.

[Seams]

On ‎6‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 9:15 PM, Isobel Harper said:

I wonder if the clothing represents the people on the Shy Maid.  

This might be true. Tyrion has picked up clothing (the shadowcat cloak), books, weapons, a scar across his face, a lover, a sellsword, and a wife in his past travels. Maybe the fool's motley is his souvenir from this stage of his journey. Or maybe the various patterns and colors represent other aspects of his adventures to date.

This part of the excerpt might be important, though, too:

Whilst Young Griff went off with Septa Lemore to be instructed in the mysteries of the Faith, Tyrion stripped off the wet clothes and donned dry ones.

Septa Lemore was in charge of making the outfit for Tyrion out of a trunk of leftover child's clothing that came from Ilyrio. While Tyrion is getting dressed, Septa Lemore is educating Young Griff (Aegon) about the faith of the 7. Is the outfit supposed to represent something about the new gods?

I am also recalling that Dany's dragon eggs came to her as a wedding gift in a trunk from Illyrio that also held fine fabrics. My assumption was that this represented her role in "sewing" the fabric of Westeros together to make a fine new garment or cloak. The Dothraki don't use cloaks at weddings; maybe the fabric was the closest substitute without asserting the ownership of the bride that is implied by the husband's cloak, and signaled that Ilyrio was behind the scenes protecting Dany's interests.

Are the seven fabrics or patterns in the fool's motley a symbol that Tyrion has also accepted Ilyrio's protection? Or has Tyrion "married" Westeros? Does the "hatching" of another trunk from Ilyrio signal that Tyrion will soon be coming into contact with his own dragons? Or Dany's dragons?

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 10:25 AM, Springwatch said:

My best guess for Tyrion's outfit is this:

Tyrion's identity is a mix of many parts, represented by motley clothing.

I agree with this part of your theory. Tyrion is already a study in contrasts: mismatched eyes, the two colors in his hair, the fact that he is high-born but also small (folk). He has finally freed himself of Tywin's control, and is allowing his inner fool to show. This foolish aspect seems to be expressed with these complementary colors; loud, bold opposites brought together. Like the Trident unites blue, green and red forks? Maybe it's like Quaithe's prophecy, which alludes to the bringing together of opposites:

To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow. 

(I also think that a good bit of this prophecy describes what happens when you look and move in front of a mirror. So wearing a new outfit is something that might take you to a mirror to have a look at yourself. Or, like Bran, to look at your reflection in the pool by a heart tree in a godswood. But the mirror allusion makes me think that both Tyrion and Dany had to pass through Meereen before departing again for Westeros. I also think Quaithe's mask might be the red door that Dany "remembers.")

I gave up pretty early trying to come up with a single interpretation for each color. I know people have tried to analyze house colors and banners, and maybe I just haven't seen enough posts to know whether there is a definitive code. I know GRRM doesn't throw in meaningless details, but I'll be very surprised if each color turns out to have a single explanation that applies in all instances.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

On 6/16/2016 at 11:42 AM, YOVMO said:

correct. At one of the great moments when Ygritte is telling Jon Snow the Bael and the Bard song (first she mentions how the girl loved Bael but then says, brilliantly, "to tell the truth, all those girls in them songs Bael wrote seemed to love him" or something like that) but Jon basically has the auto react of saying that the story is not true. Ygritte tells him it is true  "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine." That one line, I feel, always summed up just the attitude to take towards singers tales.

This goes for A LOT in ASOIAF. Also why the "invasion" from the Others is a threat to humans from the humans perspective, However, from the perspective of the Others, there is a chance that the concept is reversed and humans are the threat to them. So, who is in the "right" in this situation?

What I have learned over these years is foreshadowing in a POV with one character does not always mean that event is meant for that same character later. Take Bran playing "Lord of the Crossing" with the Frey boys back in Winterfell. They play the game and tell you the rules in that chapter, but the events play out in real life when Robb is at the Twins asking Lord Walder for crossing. Lord Walder even says "mayhaps" three times when talking to Cat and Robb about crossing... so that was a clear set up for the Red Wedding, but it happened in someone else's chapter.

The same with the Arya/Gendry flirting and wrestling. That is a set up for two other people in the series and the focus is on what one wants but cannot get because they are a bastard >>> (that's a hint )

It still amazes me what I miss during first reads that I only find on re-reads/re-listens. To understand the books, we need to consider the entire series and supporting books as a whole... the World Book, Dunk & Egg, the Princess and the Queen story included. These were authored or heavily co-authored by GRRM himself. And tales and prophecy from the past do not have to mirror 100% of what is being set up to happen now. Just the major plot points have to hit.

Now, back to Sansa and the fox cloak. I think the Sansa fox cloak is a reference to Florys the Fox from the World Book. Sansa has been learning what to do, and what not to do, from both Littlefinger and Cersei. Her chapters are far from "boring" as many state, but they are filled with her figuring out how to be clever and moving things around for her own/her family's own benefit. And there is a little insight as well with the "hidden husbands" aspect of Florys.

Florys the Fox, the cleverest of Garth's children, who kept three husbands, each ignorant of the existence of the others. (From their sons sprang House Florent, House Ball, and House Peake).

 

Anyway, just a thought.

[YOVMO]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So, who is in the "right" in this situation?

depending on origin story it might be that the WW are monsters but, like you say, it could very well depend on which side of the wall you are on

[The Fattest Leech]

Forgot to mention... @Seams, I love your threads! As off-the-wall as they may seem on first glance, there is so much truth and discovery in what you theorize

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, YOVMO said:

depending on origin story it might be that the WW are monsters but, like you say, it could very well depend on which side of the wall you are on

The source to so much frustration and specualtion that we have without all of the books to pick apart. Aaahhhh!

I loove it

[YOVMO]

35 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The source to so much frustration and specualtion that we have without all of the books to pick apart. Aaahhhh!

I loove it

As do I friend 

[Seams]

On 6/11/2016 at 7:40 PM, Seams said:

All this complex cloak stuff came to mind because another discussion of House Lothston and its tenure at Harrenhal had brought up the taking and passing of a shield with the Lothston bat sigil. Ever since I’ve started trying to sort out the sewing and fabric and garment symbolism, I’ve wondered whether armor and garments are all part of one big motif. With their protection functions, it seems like shields and cloaks are definitely linked.

The Lothston bat sigil is uniquely connected to Sansa as she talks about feeling bats in her tummy and is associated with other bat imagery as her arc progresses. The shield itself picks up a number of associations and passes through a variety of hands. Jaime gives Brienne the old shield he picked up at Harrenhal to use on her quest to find Sansa. So Jaime is like a groom giving a cloak to a bride and Brienne - a maid, like Sansa - accepts it. The charge to find the Stark daughters originated with Catelyn but is renewed by Jaime; bats are associated with Sansa who is the object of the quest; and the shield comes from Harrenhal where Sansa's creepy mentor / father is the new Lord.

In the countryside, the reaction to the Lothston bat sigil is that it has bad associations. Brienne soon has the shield repainted with the arms of Ser Duncan the Tall – does this represent a divorce of Brienne from Jaime? Brienne is sort of taking her mother’s maiden name by using Dunk’s arms. Or is the repainted shield like Sansa’s effort to hide by changing her name to Alayne Stone? Both sigils represent a return to the past: no one uses the arms of House Lothston, and we don’t know of anyone using the name or arms of Ser Duncan the Tall, although GRRM has confirmed that Brienne is related to him in some way, presumably through a female descendant.

I am listening to AFfC again on audiobook, and it struck me that the reaction to Brienne's borrowed bat shield is not just that it has bad associations, but that it represents lying. So Sansa learning to be a liar under Littlefinger's direction seems to coincide with her growing bat association. The hedge knight, Ser Illifer the Penniless, who recognizes the Lothston bat sigil also recognizes Brienne and calls her out as a kingslayer, repeating the report that she killed Renly. At this moment, Sansa is also widely suspected to have played a part in poisoning Joffrey. Brienne, of course, tells Ser Illifer that she did not kill Renly and she soon has her shield repainted.

Brienne's references to Dunk's sigil do not mention her mother and do not seem to make a conscious connection with Ser Duncan the Tall. She just remembers seeing the shield hanging in her father's hall. This is early days in Brienne's big quest. She has the sword Oathkeeper, but has mostly kept it covered (cloaked, sheathed, whatever)  at this point. This sword represents both Stark family justice (just Ice) and Jaime the Kingslayer's repentance. Perhaps the repainting of the liar's shield to instead bear the arms of a True Knight represents a similar transformation of the shield to the one the sword has undergone.

I assume we are supposed to compare Ser Illifer the Penniless, who forces the confession from Brienne, to Ser Arlan of Pennytree, who was Dunk's mentor. I don't know if the two penny knights are supposed to represent honesty personified, or if the "penny" association is just to show that we are dealing with genuine smallfolk.

I don't want to get too far off the cloak / shield analysis, but there is a lot of content about kingslaying and the dying out of old royal lines in this part of Brienne's arc - the whispering heads of slain kings and other men who advised the knight at Crackclaw Point, the Darklyns who had been ancient kings of Duskendale many years before King Aerys wiped them out (making Aerys something of a kingslayer himself); the Hollards are mentioned because they often married Darklyns (implying that they received several Darklyn cloaks over the years); Chief undergaoler Rennifer Longwaters tells Jaime that he is descended from a Targaryen princess. Even the gold coin found in the dirt under the chamberpot of the missing jailer, Rugen, is an echo of a king from before the conquest. And then the references to Sansa, Brienne and Jaime as kingslayers or suspected kingslayers.

Maybe the extinguished royal houses and the repainted shields are all part of a set of symbols that emphasize the transience of power or that once-powerful people will be remembered for little things they didn't intend to be central to their histories: like pennies nailed to a tree or bats that become associated with lying or lowly descendants who will remember and tell of their connections to mighty figures from the past.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

On 6/30/2016 at 9:04 PM, Seams said:

I am listening to AFfC again on audiobook, and it struck me that the reaction to Brienne's borrowed bat shield is not just that it has bad associations, but that it represents lying.

Don't mean to get off track here, but I think a big mystery is why the Lothston bat is associated with liars and lying in the first place.  From the wiki: 

Quote

The downfall of House Lothston came when Danelle turned to the black arts, causing chaos.[6] The last Lothston was killed with the help of an ancestor of Ser Illifer the Penniless in unknown circumstances.[2] After the line ended during the reign of King Maekar I Targaryen, the lordship of Harrenhal was given to House Whent, knights who had first served the Lothstons but then helped to defeat the mad family.

History is written by the winners and I think there's much to suspect here about things attributed to House Lothston.  The last of the line, Lady Danelle, or "Mad Danelle" was rumored to kidnap children with her bats, eat their flesh and bathe in blood.  She practices dark arts and causes chaos.  Of all the wild things she's accused of Illifer can only think to associate the sigil with lying?  Lying is kinda minimal on the list when you consider kidnapping, murder, cannibalism, and witchcraft.  And no character has yet to even hint at or specify what this lie could have even been.  It's not uncommon for history to slander especially uppity women to discredit them.  Either sexual slander, making her seem unnatural to gender norms (what's more non-maternal than killing and eating children?), or just making her plain crazy or "mad."  Maybe it wasn't a lie that Danellle knew or said, but it was that she knew an unpleasant or inconvenient truth and powers that be didn't like it.  We know Brienne is not a liar or kingslayer at all, but it's a lie that is being spread about her that she is.  Of course, Brienne is also slandered as unnatural.  So it's actually fitting that a decendent of someone that helped bring down Danelle Lothston and probably helped slander her is accusing Brienne, who we know is honest and innocent as Danelle probably was.  Harrenhal should be considered stolen property and what happened to House Lothston an injustice.    

Another "mad" redhead that also calls bullshit on the claims of Illifer and Creighton, Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse.   Mister "flying mouse would be a silly sight" = bat.  GRRM is a huge Batman fan so I think we'll see the bat sigil making a comeback for justice. If Sansa is a Batgirl she's with her (Sweet) Robin sidekick right now.   

 

 

[Isobel Harper]

@Seams.  Sorry.  Quote feature isn't working for me right now.

So we have his shirt:

left side was purple velvet with bronze studs;

the right, yellow wool embroidered in green floral patterns

pants:

right leg was solid green,

the left leg striped in red and white

 

...

 

A thought just occurred to me with regard to the colors mentioned in Tyrion's clothes: it's opposing sides/factions.  Perhaps that's why Moqorro saw Tyrion "snarling in the midst of all."

The pants represent dragons.  The green of the pants represent Rhaegal; the red and white represent Drogon and Viserion.  Could the Dance 2.0 involve Rhaegal fighting against Drogon and Viserion?

The shirt represents factions in KL maybe?  The green floral pattern on yellow (being somewhat reminiscent of a Tyrell bastard sigil) represent "bastard" and "Tyrell" - i.e., Margaery and her bastard husband.  No idea what the purple and bronze represent.  The Vale?   Will the Vale go to war against KL and/or Tyrell and Lannister? 

[Seams]

You happened to hit on a micro-topic that I've been pondering during my hiatus from the forum, and I can't resist replying.

I was looking at lump / plum as a wordplay pair (Arya is called "Lumpyface," Harrenhal has a lumpy courtyard, people eat bowls of plums with hard-boiled eggs, plum is a color that comes up from time to time and the fruit can be used as a metaphor to describe something.) I'm not sure I see the meaning of the connection in this pair of words yet, but they could represent an important hint, especially if the pair is connected to plumes: smoke and water (especially seawater) both create plumes throughout the books, but there are also a lot of silk plumes and that brings us back to plums because plum-colored silk also makes several appearances.

Anyway -

Littlefinger often wears plum-colored outfits, sometimes with yellow on them. In fact, there is a notable exchange between Littlefinger and Tyrion regarding this particular color combination:

Lord Petyr was seated on his window seat, languid and elegant in a plush plum-colored doublet and a yellow satin cape, one gloved hand resting on his knee. "The king is fighting hares with a crossbow," he said. "The hares are winning. Come see."

...

"Plum and yellow. Are those the colors of your House?"

"No. But a man gets bored wearing the same colors day in and day out, or so I've found."

(ACoK, Tyrion IV)

 

If I had to guess, I'd say that bit of dialogue reminds us that colors represent identities and loyalties. We may be getting a clue here that Littlefinger's identity is not what it seems and that his loyalties can change. He and Tyrion are observing Joffrey doing a bad job of shooting hares as they are released from cages. Hares might be associated with Daenerys, who wears a tokar that she refers to as floppy ears. (Hares might also be part of the hair / heir wordplay which has been discussed elsewhere. By the way, it is Brown Ben Plumm who comes up with the floppy ear rationale for wearing the garment that doesn't feel comfortable to Dany.) So it's possible that we are given a hint here that Littlefinger sees Dany as the likely "winner" in a contest between Joffrey and Daenerys, and he is demonstrating loyalty to her with his choice of a plum outfit.

 

The Daenerys connection is strengthened when you realize that the first use of the word plum in the series describes a gown of deep plum silk sent by Ilyrio to dress Dany for her meeting with Khal Drogo. So the color and the character are introduced together in her first POV.

 

The shirt Tyrion enjoys sewing for himself after his swim in Mother Rhoyne is also made out of things provided by Ilyrio. While the left side of the shirt is described as purple instead of plum, maybe that's just the author's way of not giving us too big of a hint right away that Tyrion will soon be joining Team Dany. Especially in juxtaposition with the embroidered flowers ("spiceflower perfume" is also mentioned in that dressing scene from the first Dany POV), there seems to be some kind of message here.

 

I don't have a theory yet about the colors of the leggings on Tyrion's outfit, or the bronze studs. It seems like there's something going on with the half man identity, though, and examining the half maester who is also on the boat might help us to make sense of the outfit that is half one thing and half another. Maybe the yellow side of the doublet and the red and white leg on that side represent Tyrion's Lannister identity, and the purple and green on the left represent his emerging alliance with Dany? The green doesn't have a strong association with Dany, though, in my mind.

 

I want to note that Littlefinger's doublet is all one color (plum) and his cloak is the part of this outfit that is yellow, in the hare-shooting scene. So there may be significance in the inner color being associated with Daenerys and the outer layer being a Lannister color. (There is also a reference to one glove he is wearing - a similar reference to one gloved hand occurs when Tywin takes center stage at the moment Joffrey dies. Is this a Hand-of-the-King or power-behind-the-throne symbol?) I've often associated cloaks with protection, but they are also used for disguises. When Cersei meets Ned in the godswood so he can confront her about the paternity of her children, she uses a cloak to cover a plum-colored bruise on her face, given to her when Robert strikes her with his hand.

[Isobel Harper]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

You happened to hit on a micro-topic that I've been pondering during my hiatus from the forum, and I can't resist replying.

I was looking at lump / plum as a wordplay pair (Arya is called "Lumpyface," Harrenhal has a lumpy courtyard, people eat bowls of plums with hard-boiled eggs, plum is a color that comes up from time to time and the fruit can be used as a metaphor to describe something.) I'm not sure I see the meaning of the connection in this pair of words yet, but they could represent an important hint, especially if the pair is connected to plumes: smoke and water (especially seawater) both create plumes throughout the books, but there are also a lot of silk plumes and that brings us back to plums because plum-colored silk also makes several appearances.

Anyway -

Littlefinger often wears plum-colored outfits, sometimes with yellow on them. In fact, there is a notable exchange between Littlefinger and Tyrion regarding this particular color combination:

Lord Petyr was seated on his window seat, languid and elegant in a plush plum-colored doublet and a yellow satin cape, one gloved hand resting on his knee. "The king is fighting hares with a crossbow," he said. "The hares are winning. Come see."

...

"Plum and yellow. Are those the colors of your House?"

"No. But a man gets bored wearing the same colors day in and day out, or so I've found."

(ACoK, Tyrion IV)

 

If I had to guess, I'd say that bit of dialogue reminds us that colors represent identities and loyalties. We may be getting a clue here that Littlefinger's identity is not what it seems and that his loyalties can change. He and Tyrion are observing Joffrey doing a bad job of shooting hares as they are released from cages. Hares might be associated with Daenerys, who wears a tokar that she refers to as floppy ears. (Hares might also be part of the hair / heir wordplay which has been discussed elsewhere. By the way, it is Brown Ben Plumm who comes up with the floppy ear rationale for wearing the garment that doesn't feel comfortable to Dany.) So it's possible that we are given a hint here that Littlefinger sees Dany as the likely "winner" in a contest between Joffrey and Daenerys, and he is demonstrating loyalty to her with his choice of a plum outfit.

 

The Daenerys connection is strengthened when you realize that the first use of the word plum in the series describes a gown of deep plum silk sent by Ilyrio to dress Dany for her meeting with Khal Drogo. So the color and the character are introduced together in her first POV.

 

The shirt Tyrion enjoys sewing for himself after his swim in Mother Rhoyne is also made out of things provided by Ilyrio. While the left side of the shirt is described as purple instead of plum, maybe that's just the author's way of not giving us too big of a hint right away that Tyrion will soon be joining Team Dany. Especially in juxtaposition with the embroidered flowers ("spiceflower perfume" is also mentioned in that dressing scene from the first Dany POV), there seems to be some kind of message here.

 

I don't have a theory yet about the colors of the leggings on Tyrion's outfit, or the bronze studs. It seems like there's something going on with the half man identity, though, and examining the half maester who is also on the boat might help us to make sense of the outfit that is half one thing and half another. Maybe the yellow side of the doublet and the red and white leg on that side represent Tyrion's Lannister identity, and the purple and green on the left represent his emerging alliance with Dany? The green doesn't have a strong association with Dany, though, in my mind.

 

I want to note that Littlefinger's doublet is all one color (plum) and his cloak is the part of this outfit that is yellow, in the hare-shooting scene. So there may be significance in the inner color being associated with Daenerys and the outer layer being a Lannister color. (There is also a reference to one glove he is wearing - a similar reference to one gloved hand occurs when Tywin takes center stage at the moment Joffrey dies. Is this a Hand-of-the-King or power-behind-the-throne symbol?) I've often associated cloaks with protection, but they are also used for disguises. When Cersei meets Ned in the godswood so he can confront her about the paternity of her children, she uses a cloak to cover a plum-colored bruise on her face, given to her when Robert strikes her with his hand.

Interesting. 

In the Mystery Knight, some of the horses in John the Fiddler's entourage are described as wearing plumes,  and the colors (if I recall correctly) match Viserion's colors.  BR is also in disguise as a Plumm.

I wonder, is maroon a purple or plumish color?  In Dance, Tyrion sees "pink and purple, maroon and gold,  pearl and saffron" and a cloud that looks like a dragon.  

ETA: I've discussed a possible connection between Sansa and Viserion via bat imagery.  The wordplay of plum/lump/plume appears to draw another connection.  

Plumes of the horses matching Viserion, LF (now lord of Harrenhal) wearing plum and yellow, Arya and Harrenhal being described as "lumpy."  Also note that the sigil for a bastard of House Whent would be yellow on a black field.  Very Targaryen.  Sansa has a possible claim to Harrenhal as "Sansa" and as "Alayne," as a Whent descendant and as LF's bastard. 

As for "hares," Victarion once describes Lord Volmark as a lord of rabbits.  House Volmark is descended from Harren the Black (who built Harrenhal) matrilineally.

[Seams]

6 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Interesting. 

In the Mystery Knight, some of the horses in John the Fiddler's entourage are described as wearing plumes,  and the colors (if I recall correctly) match Viserion's colors.  BR is also in disguise as a Plumm.

I wonder, is maroon a purple or plumish color?  In Dance, Tyrion sees "pink and purple, maroon and gold,  pearl and saffron" and a cloud that looks like a dragon.  

ETA: I've discussed a possible connection between Sansa and Viserion via bat imagery.  The wordplay of plum/lump/plume appears to draw another connection.  

Plumes of the horses matching Viserion, LF (now lord of Harrenhal) wearing plum and yellow, Arya and Harrenhal being described as "lumpy."  Also note that the sigil for a bastard of House Whent would be yellow on a black field.  Very Targaryen.  Sansa has a possible claim to Harrenhal as "Sansa" and as "Alayne," as a Whent descendant and as LF's bastard. 

As for "hares," Victarion once describes Lord Volmark as a lord of rabbits.  House Volmark is descended from Harren the Black (who built Harrenhal) matrilineally.

Excellent point on the hares and Harrenhal. The Harrenhal connection to plums might be even better than the Daenerys connection to plum:

Harrenhal was one of the richest plums in the Seven Kingdoms, its lands broad and rich and fertile, its great castle as formidable as any in the realm . . . and so large as to dwarf Riverrun, where Petyr Baelish had been fostered by House Tully, only to be brusquely expelled when he dared raise his sights to Lord Hoster's daughter.

(ACoK, Tyrion IV)

Or maybe Dany and Harrenhal are connected in a way we don't yet understand, and the floppy ears, hares and plums are all hints. But there is also an important Balon Greyjoy quote, where he tells Theon that he hungers for a plum, and Theon seems to know what he means, but the reader is not told directly. If Euron and Victarion are aspects of their brother Balon (similar to Renly and Stannis representing aspects of Robert), they both "hunger" for Daenerys. And Harrenhal was built by an Iron Islander, so maybe Balon and/or the Seastone Chair "hungered" for both types of plums?

[Isobel Harper]

41 minutes ago, Seams said:

Excellent point on the hares and Harrenhal. The Harrenhal connection to plums might be even better than the Daenerys connection to plum:

Harrenhal was one of the richest plums in the Seven Kingdoms, its lands broad and rich and fertile, its great castle as formidable as any in the realm . . . and so large as to dwarf Riverrun, where Petyr Baelish had been fostered by House Tully, only to be brusquely expelled when he dared raise his sights to Lord Hoster's daughter.

(ACoK, Tyrion IV)

Or maybe Dany and Harrenhal are connected in a way we don't yet understand, and the floppy ears, hares and plums are all hints. But there is also an important Balon Greyjoy quote, where he tells Theon that he hungers for a plum, and Theon seems to know what he means, but the reader is not told directly. If Euron and Victarion are aspects of their brother Balon (similar to Renly and Stannis representing aspects of Robert), they both "hunger" for Daenerys. And Harrenhal was built by an Iron Islander, so maybe Balon and/or the Seastone Chair "hungered" for both types of plums?

Had to look up that Theon quote.  I'm sure the "plum" Balon was referring to was Winterfell.  I can't think of any other place left "unguarded."

Plums in this sense depict keeps or castles that someone hungers for.  Balon hungers for Winterfell; LF, for Harrenhal.  As for Daenerys and her connection to the color plum in AGoT, the plum colored dress is one that Illyrio picks out for her, not one that she chooses.  She just wants to go home.  Viserys approves of the color though when  holds the dress up to her.  HE is the hungry one.  He is even described as "gaunt," a term that implies being too thin or starved, and, therefore, hungry.  Viserys' hunger for the throne literally and figuratively "starves" him. 

 

Here's a "lump" that you might find interesting:

 Lump had been born a month before his proper time, and he was sick so often that no one expected him to live. His mother waited until he was almost four to give him a proper name, and by then it was too late. The whole village had taken to calling him Lump, the name his sister Meha had given him when he was still in their mother's belly.

That's Varamyr Six Skins, from his prologue.   

With regard to the lumps as babies, the importance of producing an heir to secure a conquered keep is mentioned several times in the series.  Tywin urged Tyrion to get Sansa with child to secure the Lannisters' hold on the North.  Roslin prays for a girl, knowing that a son will secure the Frey hold onto Riverrun and, thus, make Edmure expendible.  Ya need a lump for a plum, so to say. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 hours ago, Seams said:

You happened to hit on a micro-topic that I've been pondering during my hiatus from the forum, and I can't resist replying.

Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
'Relax' said the night man
'We are programmed to receive
You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave!

[Greywater-Watch]

On ‎12‎.‎06‎.‎2016 at 1:40 AM, Seams said:

All this complex cloak stuff [...]

If I understand you correctly you try to hint at hidden messages on characters send to us (the readers) by way of the cloaks they wear.

My feeling is that cloaks in the books are "tools" many characters chose on purpose being well aware of the message this cloak sends to their environment or that cloaks are just chosen due to their functionality. So in my opinion no hidden messages (at least not hidden from those who wear the cloaks).

Some few examples:

• Tyrion tried to get the Shadowcat-cloak because he was cold and wanted something warm.
• Sansa as Alayne in the Vale was trained by Littlefinger to use modest cloaks as befit her role as a bastard and not a highborn girl.
• The Tattered Prince was very well aware of the effect of his cloak, 

[Seams]

On 11/18/2016 at 8:58 PM, Isobel Harper said:

Here's a "lump" that you might find interesting:

 Lump had been born a month before his proper time, and he was sick so often that no one expected him to live. His mother waited until he was almost four to give him a proper name, and by then it was too late. The whole village had taken to calling him Lump, the name his sister Meha had given him when he was still in their mother's belly.

That's Varamyr Six Skins, from his prologue.   

With regard to the lumps as babies, the importance of producing an heir to secure a conquered keep is mentioned several times in the series.  Tywin urged Tyrion to get Sansa with child to secure the Lannisters' hold on the North.  Roslin prays for a girl, knowing that a son will secure the Frey hold onto Riverrun and, thus, make Edmure expendible.  Ya need a lump for a plum, so to say. 

Varamyr Six Skins was on my radar for the lump / plum / plume analysis, but you raise the connection to pregnancy, and I think this is important. Fertility seems to be part of the lump / plum symbolism. These complex symbols may be coming together in a new way, thanks to your point.

Pies, especially wedding pies filled with live birds, seem to represent rebirth. There are many symbolic rebirths in the books but the pies are definitely in that category.

Also, in an old British nursery rhyme, a child "stuck in his thumb and pulled out a plum" from a pie. @ravenous reader pointed out on another thread that one theory of the origin for this rhyme is that deeds to church-owned properties were bake into pies at a time of unrest to hide them from being confiscated by the king. An assistant to a bishop took one of the deeds out of a pie and kept it for himself, securing ownership of a valuable castle and land. This seems to reflect Littlefinger's arc to becoming the Lord of Harrenhal. The title and castle were given to him for arranging the marriage of Joffrey and Margaery, which brings us back to the wedding pie with birds inside.

Dany was pregnant, so the plum / lump connection seems to be embodied in her character as well.

I just went back and re-read a portion of the Mystery Knight where the wedding pie is opened at the Butterwell wedding at Whitewalls in the presence of Ser Maynard Plumm (who might be Bloodraven in disguise) and John the Fiddler (who is Daemon II Blackfyre in disguise). (And we can round out the disguised Targ group by noting that Aegon is disguised as Dunk's squire, Egg.) Daemon II Blackfyre is at the wedding feast because he has had a dream that an egg will be hatched at Whitewalls, so there is the rebirth symbolism alongside the pie and the Plumm again. There is a conversation at the Butterwell wedding feast about the pie representing marriage, countered by a vulgar assertion that the purpose of marriage is to produce an heir:

"The pie is meant to be the marriage, and a true marriage has in it many sorts of things—joy and grief, pain and pleasure, love and lust and loyalty. So it is fitting that there be birds of many sorts. No man ever truly knows what a new wife will bring him."

"Her cunt," said Plumm, "or what would be the point?"

(The Mystery Knight)

So the Plumm surname comes into play alongside the pie symbol as well as a fertility reference. And I remembered that Ser Ossifer Plumm's claim to fame is that he supposedly fathered a child just as he died in bed with his wife on his wedding night. (Although the bride may have been hastily impregnated by the Targ king, who needed her to have a "Plumm" heir.) So there is the pregnancy or fertility connection again as well as a possible Targ disguise. Cersei thinks about Ossifer Plumm on the morning of Tommen and Margaery's wedding, just as she is served a hard-boiled egg that turns out to have a dead chick inside. (My suspicions are growing that Margaery was pregnant when she married Joffrey, and obtained moon tea from Grandmaester Pycelle, resulting in a miscarriage before she married Tommen. The fertility and stillbirth symbols of the wedding pie with the live birds and the egg with the dead chick are fueling my suspicions.)

Others - sweetsunray, I think? - have pointed out that Sansa feels fluttery bats in her tummy when Joffrey looks at her, and that there is a symbolic pregnancy based on that and some other clues. Bats instead of birds coming out of a pie is a specific Lothston/Whent symbol and brings us back again to Harrenhal.

Hard-boiled eggs and plums are often served together at breakfasts in Westeros, for what it's worth. There has been discussion of hard-boiled egg symbolism on other threads, with the early heavy lifting done by @Lost Melnibonean. It makes sense that eggs and live birds (or dragons?) "hatching" out of pies would be related, but I can't quite pin it down. I suspect there are further clues in the name "Whitewalls" symbolizing an egg shell that will be broken, and in the "flying" of convicted criminals from the Moon Door at the Eyrie or from the sky cells (rhymes with pie shells) there. If you can stand this symbol going even further down that path, when Tyrion is imprisoned at the Eyrie, he says at one point that he wonders what is happening "beyond the wall" of his sky cell. This may be a hint that the giant ice wall is also part of the egg shell symbolism, and that we will eventually see a massive "hatching" at that location. I will also note that the stone from which the Eyrie is built came from the island of Tarth. I had wondered about tart / Tarth wordplay, and this connection between egg shells and pie shells and white walls may explain why the author threw in that detail about the source for the stone - a hatching will occur at the Eyrie. (See @sweetsunray's good analysis of the foreshadowed earthquake / landslide at the Eyrie for more information.)

I wish I could say that this all comes together neatly and clearly in my mind, but I'm not quite there yet. The symbols do seem to support the connection of Sansa as the Whent heir (through her mother), with a claim on Harrenhal. I.e., Harrenhal is a "plum," plums come out of pies, Sansa is symbolically pregnant with bats in her tummy; apparently GRRM would have us believe that babies come out of tummies in somewhat the same way that birds (or bats) fly out of a pie at a wedding feast. But Dany has already symbolically given birth to flying things (in a pyre, not a pie). She wears the plum-colored silk to meet her bridegroom for the first time and she eats a lot of fruit. Will her path take her to Harrenhal? Is Harrenhal itself "pregnant"? Will there be a Sansa vs. Dany showdown for control of Harrenhal? If so, will Sansa be hit with more fruit (Arya threw a blood orange at her; Ser Dontos hit her with a melon)?

Tune in tomorrow - same bat-time, same bat-channel! (<-- This is a joking reference to an old Batman tv show in the U.S. I don't actually have more to post tomorrow.)

[Isobel Harper]

8 hours ago, Seams said:

Varamyr Six Skins was on my radar for the lump / plum / plume analysis, but you raise the connection to pregnancy, and I think this is important. Fertility seems to be part of the lump / plum symbolism. These complex symbols may be coming together in a new way, thanks to your point.

Pies, especially wedding pies filled with live birds, seem to represent rebirth. There are many symbolic rebirths in the books but the pies are definitely in that category.

Also, in an old British nursery rhyme, a child "stuck in his thumb and pulled out a plum" from a pie. @ravenous reader pointed out on another thread that one theory of the origin for this rhyme is that deeds to church-owned properties were bake into pies at a time of unrest to hide them from being confiscated by the king. An assistant to a bishop took one of the deeds out of a pie and kept it for himself, securing ownership of a valuable castle and land. This seems to reflect Littlefinger's arc to becoming the Lord of Harrenhal. The title and castle were given to him for arranging the marriage of Joffrey and Margaery, which brings us back to the wedding pie with birds inside.

Dany was pregnant, so the plum / lump connection seems to be embodied in her character as well.

I just went back and re-read a portion of the Mystery Knight where the wedding pie is opened at the Butterwell wedding at Whitewalls in the presence of Ser Maynard Plumm (who might be Bloodraven in disguise) and John the Fiddler (who is Daemon II Blackfyre in disguise). (And we can round out the disguised Targ group by noting that Aegon is disguised as Dunk's squire, Egg.) Daemon II Blackfyre is at the wedding feast because he has had a dream that an egg will be hatched at Whitewalls, so there is the rebirth symbolism alongside the pie and the Plumm again. There is a conversation at the Butterwell wedding feast about the pie representing marriage, countered by a vulgar assertion that the purpose of marriage is to produce an heir:

"The pie is meant to be the marriage, and a true marriage has in it many sorts of things—joy and grief, pain and pleasure, love and lust and loyalty. So it is fitting that there be birds of many sorts. No man ever truly knows what a new wife will bring him."

"Her cunt," said Plumm, "or what would be the point?"

(The Mystery Knight)

So the Plumm surname comes into play alongside the pie symbol as well as a fertility reference. And I remembered that Ser Ossifer Plumm's claim to fame is that he supposedly fathered a child just as he died in bed with his wife on his wedding night. (Although the bride may have been hastily impregnated by the Targ king, who needed her to have a "Plumm" heir.) So there is the pregnancy or fertility connection again as well as a possible Targ disguise. Cersei thinks about Ossifer Plumm on the morning of Tommen and Margaery's wedding, just as she is served a hard-boiled egg that turns out to have a dead chick inside. (My suspicions are growing that Margaery was pregnant when she married Joffrey, and obtained moon tea from Grandmaester Pycelle, resulting in a miscarriage before she married Tommen. The fertility and stillbirth symbols of the wedding pie with the live birds and the egg with the dead chick are fueling my suspicions.)

Others - sweetsunray, I think? - have pointed out that Sansa feels fluttery bats in her tummy when Joffrey looks at her, and that there is a symbolic pregnancy based on that and some other clues. Bats instead of birds coming out of a pie is a specific Lothston/Whent symbol and brings us back again to Harrenhal.

Hard-boiled eggs and plums are often served together at breakfasts in Westeros, for what it's worth. There has been discussion of hard-boiled egg symbolism on other threads, with the early heavy lifting done by @Lost Melnibonean. It makes sense that eggs and live birds (or dragons?) "hatching" out of pies would be related, but I can't quite pin it down. I suspect there are further clues in the name "Whitewalls" symbolizing an egg shell that will be broken, and in the "flying" of convicted criminals from the Moon Door at the Eyrie or from the sky cells (rhymes with pie shells) there. If you can stand this symbol going even further down that path, when Tyrion is imprisoned at the Eyrie, he says at one point that he wonders what is happening "beyond the wall" of his sky cell. This may be a hint that the giant ice wall is also part of the egg shell symbolism, and that we will eventually see a massive "hatching" at that location. I will also note that the stone from which the Eyrie is built came from the island of Tarth. I had wondered about tart / Tarth wordplay, and this connection between egg shells and pie shells and white walls may explain why the author threw in that detail about the source for the stone - a hatching will occur at the Eyrie. (See @sweetsunray's good analysis of the foreshadowed earthquake / landslide at the Eyrie for more information.)

I wish I could say that this all comes together neatly and clearly in my mind, but I'm not quite there yet. The symbols do seem to support the connection of Sansa as the Whent heir (through her mother), with a claim on Harrenhal. I.e., Harrenhal is a "plum," plums come out of pies, Sansa is symbolically pregnant with bats in her tummy; apparently GRRM would have us believe that babies come out of tummies in somewhat the same way that birds (or bats) fly out of a pie at a wedding feast. But Dany has already symbolically given birth to flying things (in a pyre, not a pie). She wears the plum-colored silk to meet her bridegroom for the first time and she eats a lot of fruit. Will her path take her to Harrenhal? Is Harrenhal itself "pregnant"? Will there be a Sansa vs. Dany showdown for control of Harrenhal? If so, will Sansa be hit with more fruit (Arya threw a blood orange at her; Ser Dontos hit her with a melon)?

Tune in tomorrow - same bat-time, same bat-channel! (<-- This is a joking reference to an old Batman tv show in the U.S. I don't actually have more to post tomorrow.)

I agree that birds flying out of a pie represent some sort of rebirth.  Visually, it's very similar to bats flying out of a cave,  bats being a symbol of rebirth and caves symbolizing the womb.  We have at least one cave called a "womb" in the series!  The Womb of the World.  Any pie/cave puns that you know of? 

(Side note: I wonder if GRRM is making a connection to womb/tomb/tummy?  Sansa feels bats fluttering "in her tummy," her tummy being a "cave"/womb... but tummy could be a pun on tomb - that is, some sort of connection to death in childbirth.)

Quote

Others - sweetsunray, I think? - have pointed out that Sansa feels fluttery bats in her tummy when Joffrey looks at her, and that there is a symbolic pregnancy based on that and some other clues. Bats instead of birds coming out of a pie is a specific Lothston/Whent symbol and brings us back again to Harrenhal.
 

 

I know I've discussed the flutterings being connected to pregnancy with several users.  We may have discussed it some on the Puns and Wordplay thread.   I'm almost certain I've brought it up in my The Bat and the Wolf thread.

Quote

If so, will Sansa be hit with more fruit (Arya threw a blood orange at her; Ser Dontos hit her with a melon)?

More womb/childbirth imagery: When Arya hits Sansa, it hits her in the face (on the forehead?  3rd eye?) and lands in her lap.  Sansa then dyes (dye/die pun?) the white dress black.  This may be some symbolism/hint for death in childbirth.  But I have a feeling that this hints at a loss of a lover/husband, not of herself (and probably not of Tyrion.)  So I'm thinking something along the lines of: white dress = wedding dress, areas where the blood orange hits = loss of a lover somehow paralleled with Lady (perhaps someone tries to kill Arya but kills him instead?), black dress = mourning dress. 

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I wish I could say that this all comes together neatly and clearly in my mind, but I'm not quite there yet. 

You and me both!  Sometimes I feel that I'm just rambling.  I hope I make sense.   Lol!

Quote

(My suspicions are growing that Margaery was pregnant when she married Joffrey, and obtained moon tea from Grandmaester Pycelle, resulting in a miscarriage before she married Tommen. The fertility and stillbirth symbols of the wedding pie with the live birds and the egg with the dead chick are fueling my suspicions.)  

Oooh!  Very interesting indeed. 

 

[Seams]

16 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I agree that birds flying out of a pie represent some sort of rebirth.  Visually, it's very similar to bats flying out of a cave,  bats being a symbol of rebirth and caves symbolizing the womb.  We have at least one cave called a "womb" in the series!  The Womb of the World.  Any pie/cave puns that you know of? 

(Side note: I wonder if GRRM is making a connection to womb/tomb/tummy?  Sansa feels bats fluttering "in her tummy," her tummy being a "cave"/womb... but tummy could be a pun on tomb - that is, some sort of connection to death in childbirth.)

I know I've discussed the flutterings being connected to pregnancy with several users.  We may have discussed it some on the Puns and Wordplay thread.   I'm almost certain I've brought it up in my The Bat and the Wolf thread.

More womb/childbirth imagery: When Arya hits Sansa, it hits her in the face (on the forehead?  3rd eye?) and lands in her lap.  Sansa then dyes (dye/die pun?) the white dress black.  This may be some symbolism/hint for death in childbirth.  But I have a feeling that this hints at a loss of a lover/husband, not of herself (and probably not of Tyrion.)  So I'm thinking something along the lines of: white dress = wedding dress, areas where the blood orange hits = loss of a lover somehow paralleled with Lady (perhaps someone tries to kill Arya but kills him instead?), black dress = mourning dress.

I LOVE the tomb / tummy notion. The word "tummy" seemed like the word a child would use, and didn't seem to fit with GRRM's usual word choices for his characters. So a wordplay explanation helps to make sense of it. The idea that tombs are like forges, where weapons are melted down and reborn as new weapons, has been discussed in the forum. So the tomb / tummy connection would extend and strengthen the metaphor with a link to the place where babies are "forged" and then born. Very nice catch!

The link between caves and tummies is also interesting. Jon and Ygritte have a memorable love-making session in a cave that is an extension of Mance Rayder's great hall. Since feasts are often associated with death, it seems important that Jon and Ygritte are engaged in a fertility-related activity off to the side of a feast location. I can't think of any pie/cave puns, but there was a discussion on the Puns and Wordplay thread of Pycelle / sky cell / pie shell / Celador and some other names that might relate to pies and cave-like prison cells.

Sorry I couldn't remember who had made the fluttering tummy / pregnancy connection - I couldn't even begin to remember where I had seen it. It was another good catch and I try to give credit where credit is due.

The blood orange that Arya throws at Sansa could, of course, be foreshadowing Ned's death. The orange lands in Sansa's lap because Ned would have snuck out of town and been safe if Sansa hadn't gone to Joffrey and Cersei, expressly violating Ned's instructions to keep their departure plans a secret. Sansa salvages the dress by dyeing it black and wearing it as a sign of mourning for King Robert (King of Summer). But Ned is a symbolic king as well (King of Winter) so the mourning dress has two layers of meaning almost immediately.

The melon that Ser Dontos uses as a "play" weapon in an attempt to divert Joffrey's attack on Sansa is probably symbolic as a "head" as well. I'll have to go back and look for your comments on the symbolic Joffrey / Sansa impregnation, because I think the melon scene, with the juice and seeds running down Sansa's face and the blue dress she chose that day because she thought Joffrey would like it, were part of that discussion. Melon is not associated with pies, but Sansa loves lemon tarts and there is melon / lemon wordplay in the books. Maybe a melon is the opposite of a lemon, for Sansa, so nightmare scenarios play out when she comes in contact with melons.

When Penny and Groat perform at Joffrey's wedding feast, part of the act is a pretend beheading, where a helmet that appears to have a head inside lands in someone's lap. The head turns out to be a melon and the actual head of the dwarf reappears again from inside of the armor he had ducked inside. This probably foreshadows Tyrion's reappearance after he returns to Westeros.