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teemo

[Spoilers] Criticize without repercussion

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Just now, King Louis II (KLII) said:

It cannot be undone, but I don't want them destroying even more, and making this LOST  all over again

I understand, but changing show characters to their book counterparts would be stupid too as they already went totally different ways. Stannis can't come back from the dead, Quentyn and Arianne can't appear from nowhere, Jaime can't start hate Cersei from nowhere and JonSnow can't have personality change year after being resurrected. This can be hard to acknowledge but this show is LOST even more than LOST.

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On Thursday, 16 June 2016 at 8:27 PM, legba11 said:

Stephen Dillane clearly did not like D&D's writing... ...incredibly damning to the writers and directors.  If one of your principle actors doesn't understand his character after seasons something is seriously wrong.

Well, in this case, the writers didn't understand the character either.

On Thursday, 16 June 2016 at 9:17 PM, The fanny from hell said:

The book-bashing thread is not here, is it? So, if I'm not mistaken, you should change the subject.

On Thursday, 16 June 2016 at 10:45 PM, The fanny from hell said:

...let's stay ON TOPIC.

Oh no - someone's having some fun outside of the designated fun zone! Heaven forfend!

On Thursday, 16 June 2016 at 10:39 PM, ummester said:

I was just reading an article that suggested even Sopranos jumped the shark near the end - though it managed to pull it together for the finale. I watched Sopranos back to back and, though I thought it became a little silly around the time it focused on the gay gangster, it still held my interest. I think everything has a shelf life and if you go past it, it turns to shit - nothing is ever good enough to be stretched on forever and less is often more.

Well, "jumped the shark" would be far too strong, but yes, I think it did go off the boil in season 6. I blame their reluctance to throw red meat to the audience. Consider the ending (and I don't just mean the last scene). It was deliberately inconclusive. Now, there's nothing wrong with that per se, but I think there was a desire in the writer's room not to do traditionally satisfying storytelling; knowing that a great many viewers wanted to see Tony blast a load of fools and somehow "win", whatever that would mean, the writers sought to avoid doing anything like that.

A good story has the elements for the end baked in near the beginning, but all the options for the closing of a grand arc were closed off:

Spoiler

Tony and Carmela had returned to their detente, Johnny Sack was dead, Carmine Lupertazzo was dead, the FBI weren't interested anymore... Phil Leotardo ends up a sort of de facto Big Bad, but he never carried the weight that some of the other mafia antagonists did. Junior's dementia was a fitting end for him, but it took him out of Tony's story... the only remaining conflict of dramatic weight to get resolved in the show's final stretch was between Tony and Dr. Melfi, and that ended up feeling perfunctory because it should have happened 2 seasons previous.

The Sopranos started out asking, can a man like Tony Soprano change? And it finished by asking, why don't people change? Season 6... I dunno, I felt like they were repeating a lot of the plot points they'd hit earlier, only more explicitly. It felt like they were saying, "Look, see? Tony's been given every opportunity to change, but he still won't do it. What a bastard he is!" Perhaps there was just nowhere else to go.

On Thursday, 16 June 2016 at 11:09 PM, ummester said:

Two main reasons, I think:

1) Now we have Tyrion, Grey Worm and Missendai treading water, waiting for Dany (who is also treading water) waiting for things to line up for her return in Westeros. The whole Dany plotline has totally run out of steam - and won't have any until her dragons start burning Westeros.

2) Dinklage is a very overrated actor and not at all interesting when he has boring material.

Hizzy was the best thing left in Dany's story. I agree, killing him was a mistake. He was the only sensible voice in Mereen last season :D

Re the slavers - yea, it's boring - I still hope Varys is behind it. or possibly the Iron Bank, or possible Varys working for the Iron Bank - but after how Arya's story has been resolved, I'm giving up hope for anything that interesting.

The Iron Bank! Add that to the list of wasted elements.

23 hours ago, sarah.jenice said:

No fettuccine alfredo? Elisabetta, my life is ruined! :P 

Apparently they don't really have spaghetti bolognese either. Filthy savages

23 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Jaquen to Arya after killing the Waif : "you are no one now"
#1 rule in HofBW : to become a faceless man you must kill one of your colleagues

Jaquen will excel in any HR department

Zing!

21 hours ago, 43ry5274rg4ry3n said:

The only thing missed there was some audience laughter sound effect!

Last episode was trashy. I might rather that the show becomes self aware about its self parody and taking it to the max. I'm talking bringing Arnold Schwarzenegger in this shit as Azor Ahai come again! 

HOLY SHIT - Arnold Schwarzenegger for GoT! That would be amazing. Who could he play? (And bear in mind he's an old man now)

I'm dead serious btw, that would be super sweet

11 hours ago, teemo said:

Clarke and Harrington are the worst, obviously, because they were taken straight out of drama school.  It probably had a lot to do with budgetary reasons and they thought they could get away with it and the actors would grow into it with coaching, but it's not working.  Harrington is a little better, Clarke hasn't improved at all.  Clarke is also completely awful out of GoT, so it's not just a dialogue thing.  The other minor characters like Barriston and Jorah have tried to carry her in their scenes, but they're so out of her league that they just can't.  

I feel like the casting of Dany and Jon is not where you want to be cheap with your budget....what were they thinking??  A show this big should not have just very good actors, but AMAZING actors.  The fact that they have poor ones as main characters is mind-blowing.  I think Clarke was nominated for an Emmy or something, which is just so silly, but not really surprised considering how award shows are.  I think Lady Gaga won an Emmy or Golden Globe this past year!  lol.  Even AHS fans were shocked.

Gillen is a great actor, but I don't think he seems very good at all in GoT.  If I had never seen him before I would think this guy is talentless. And man, I loved him in The Wire.  

I feel kind of bad for Finn, because from what I can remember he was always very pro-book Loras.  

I actually think Emilia Clarke is pretty good... at least when the material's alright. As for hiring an inexperienced actor straight out of drama school, well, a cynic might say that's because an established actress would refuse to get her tits out...

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5 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

HOLY SHIT - Arnold Schwarzenegger for GoT! That would be amazing. Who could he play? (And bear in mind he's an old man now)

I'm dead serious btw, that would be super sweet

Bear in mind that he played Mr. Freeze in Batman and Robin. lel

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OT/  I think w/the Sopranos that the writers were trying to please themselves and do something 'different' w/out being crazy....where BB went the opposite, you can't say it was fan service exactly, but they more or less gave the fans what they wanted, Jesse lived, Walt died but went out on his own terms, the rest of the baddies Walt took out in totally Walter White manners.  But, truth be told, I'd say the vast majority of people loved the BB end much more than the Sopranos end, although I did think they went overboard in letting Walt tie up All of his loose ends.

OT/I've gone back and forth on Kit and Emilia, in the earlier seasons I thought she was better than him, but now I feel like he has grown and improved and she's exactly the same as she ever was, no change, no growth, no better, sometimes worse than her season 1.  Actresses do nude scenes all the time, so I don't think they couldn't get a more established actress who would do that, maybe they wanted to 'discover' someone or wanted someone who was dirt cheap for the pilot season.

Yes, the Iron Bank another wasted element.  All that effort to do that awesome set....and the bankers, never to be seen again, presumably.

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, the Iron Bank another wasted element.  All that effort to do that awesome set....and the bankers, never to be seen again, presumably.

Looks like The Iron Bank will not have its due.

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22 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

OT/  I think w/the Sopranos that the writers were trying to please themselves and do something 'different' w/out being crazy....where BB went the opposite, you can't say it was fan service exactly, but they more or less gave the fans what they wanted, Jesse lived, Walt died but went out on his own terms, the rest of the baddies Walt took out in totally Walter White manners.  But, truth be told, I'd say the vast majority of people loved the BB end much more than the Sopranos end, although I did think they went overboard in letting Walt tie up All of his loose ends.

OT/I've gone back and forth on Kit and Emilia, in the earlier seasons I thought she was better than him, but now I feel like he has grown and improved and she's exactly the same as she ever was, no change, no growth, no better, sometimes worse than her season 1.  Actresses do nude scenes all the time, so I don't think they couldn't get a more established actress who would do that, maybe they wanted to 'discover' someone or wanted someone who was dirt cheap for the pilot season.

Yes, the Iron Bank another wasted element.  All that effort to do that awesome set....and the bankers, never to be seen again, presumably.

Yes, I think you're write about The Sopranos writers. Now why couldn't I say it that succintly?

Speaking only for myself, I actually wanted to see Walt rot in jail for a good few episodes and truly have to reckon with what he'd done. The ending felt a little perfunctory... if that really is the ending... check out this sweet theory:

Or, if you don't have 15 minutes to spare:

As for actresses doing nude scenes, they're far more likely to do them earlier in their career when they're taking any part that's offered. As soon as they have enough leverage, they tend to keep their clothes on. If you disagree, ask the experts on the subject: horny teenage boys.

22 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Bear in mind that he played Mr. Freeze in Batman and Robin. lel

Ice to see you're familiar with his work.

19 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Looks like The Iron Bank will not have its due.

Boom!

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Oh, I forgot to mention: further to the idea that Garge is no longer stoked on the show, I saw this in some other thread where somebody had dinner with him at Balticon:

OH and also GRRM talked about Dorne! He wasn't exactly dissing the show, but he didn't have anything good to say about it. One guy talked asked if season 6 would spoil the books for him. Something like "Don't think what happens in the show will happen in the books, the show is completely different. The books will be nothing like that." You could really feel the dislike he had for it. 

So there's that.

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4 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Oh, I forgot to mention: further to the idea that Garge is no longer stoked on the show, I saw this in some other thread where somebody had dinner with him at Balticon:

OH and also GRRM talked about Dorne! He wasn't exactly dissing the show, but he didn't have anything good to say about it. One guy talked asked if season 6 would spoil the books for him. Something like "Don't think what happens in the show will happen in the books, the show is completely different. The books will be nothing like that." You could really feel the dislike he had for it. 

So there's that.

Yeah, but he should realize that even tho they are doing most things different, they still decide to put twists what GRRM has told them. For example burning shireen and hodor's death. Because of this, they manage to fuck GRRM storyline and spoil book fans at one go.

6 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Ice to see you're familiar with his work.

You know what killed The Children of The Forest? Ice Age!

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1 minute ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Oh, I forgot to mention: further to the idea that Garge is no longer stoked on the show, I saw this in some other thread where somebody had dinner with him at Balticon:

OH and also GRRM talked about Dorne! He wasn't exactly dissing the show, but he didn't have anything good to say about it. One guy talked asked if season 6 would spoil the books for him. Something like "Don't think what happens in the show will happen in the books, the show is completely different. The books will be nothing like that." You could really feel the dislike he had for it. 

So there's that.

This is has been controversial for some time, some see it, some don't.  To me, reading between the lines, it seems that he lost a lot of love for the show somewhere between seasons 4, when he was still really positive, even saying that he preferred Show Shae and he loved the Brienne/Hound fight...and Season 5, where it became much more 'these people aren't dead in the books and the books are the books/show show and talking about butterflies.  He also stopped writing an episode @ that time.  Also, the timing of his chapter releases strongly suggests there is a message there.  But, there are a lot of people who are going to say that this is pure speculation and will never believe it unless Martin comes and says "Dan and Dave have ruined my story" or something equally direct, which will never happen.

The whole thing is very unfortunate, because if the later seasons have shown anything, it's that they DESPERATELY need the guiding hand of GRRM, meanderer though he is, to keep the show on track.  They can't do it themselves.  They can't plot their way out of the back yard.

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

This is has been controversial for some time, some see it, some don't.  To me, reading between the lines, it seems that he lost a lot of love for the show somewhere between seasons 4, when he was still really positive, even saying that he preferred Show Shae and he loved the Brienne/Hound fight...and Season 5, where it became much more 'these people aren't dead in the books and the books are the books/show show and talking about butterflies.  He also stopped writing an episode @ that time.  Also, the timing of his chapter releases strongly suggests there is a message there.  But, there are a lot of people who are going to say that this is pure speculation and will never believe it unless Martin comes and says "Dan and Dave have ruined my story" or something equally direct, which will never happen.

I didn't even twig that about the preview chapters... it's also interesting that he's been popping out Dorne and Iron Islands chapters...

I wonder whether he has "fuck you" money yet, or whether there's a non-disparagement clause in the contract.

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2 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

I didn't even twig that about the preview chapters... it's also interesting that he's been popping out Dorne and Iron Islands chapters...

I wonder whether he has "fuck you" money yet, or whether there's a non-disparagement clause in the contract.

I don't think he would really badmouth the show even if he could w/out any legal ramifications.  It did bring millions more people to his books and got him presumably several more million from the deal as well as worldwide fame on an entirely different scale.

What I suspect you might see after the entire show wraps is a little more candor from him but still very politic, and same a little more candor from actors.  I think people were pretty surprised when Dillane left and said he felt like a cog in a machine and never had a handle on his character, while that's technically "neutral" it's a huge indictment of the writers/directors who are running things.  Guy was on the show for 4 years, is at least a book fan favorite, and says this...not exactly complimentary.

He released Mercy before Arya gouged out Trants eyes Hellraiser style, and releases a chapter about Euron right when Euron [miscast!!] shows up on GOT.  Can't be a coincidence.  

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't think he would really badmouth the show even if he could w/out any legal ramifications.  It did bring millions more people to his books and got him presumably several more million from the deal as well as worldwide fame on an entirely different scale.

What I suspect you might see after the entire show wraps is a little more candor from him but still very politic, and same a little more candor from actors.  I think people were pretty surprised when Dillane left and said he felt like a cog in a machine and never had a handle on his character, while that's technically "neutral" it's a huge indictment of the writers/directors who are running things.  Guy was on the show for 4 years, is at least a book fan favorite, and says this...not exactly complimentary.

He released Mercy before Arya gouged out Trants eyes Hellraiser style, and releases a chapter about Euron right when Euron [miscast!!] shows up on GOT.  Can't be a coincidence.  

And he released the Alayne chapter before the Winterhell abomination. :)

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

This is has been controversial for some time, some see it, some don't.  To me, reading between the lines, it seems that he lost a lot of love for the show somewhere between seasons 4, when he was still really positive, even saying that he preferred Show Shae and he loved the Brienne/Hound fight...and Season 5, where it became much more 'these people aren't dead in the books and the books are the books/show show and talking about butterflies.  He also stopped writing an episode @ that time.  Also, the timing of his chapter releases strongly suggests there is a message there.  But, there are a lot of people who are going to say that this is pure speculation and will never believe it unless Martin comes and says "Dan and Dave have ruined my story" or something equally direct, which will never happen.

The whole thing is very unfortunate, because if the later seasons have shown anything, it's that they DESPERATELY need the guiding hand of GRRM, meanderer though he is, to keep the show on track.  They can't do it themselves.  They can't plot their way out of the back yard.

Anyone who has read ASOIAF know that GRRM doesn't speak directly on a lot of important things.  One really needs to read between the lines and look for clues and may I add-themes in what he says/writes

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27 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

Anyone who has read ASOIAF know that GRRM doesn't speak directly on a lot of important things.  One really needs to read between the lines and look for clues and may I add-themes in what he says/writes

heh indeed.   And honestly, reading between the lines, I'd say we book readers who've kept with it for a while can pick up on his disgruntlement with the show that he can't express.

Of course, he'll never say that because it would turn into a shitstorm that I doubt he wants.  I mean, he does get paid from this show and I'm sure he looks upon the first 2-3 seasons with some fondness.  I doubt he'll ever spit on it for that reason, but I also don't think he's honestly happy with it, just based on how he always seems to deflect and distance himself from it.

His editor was certainly much more forward though.

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Just now, Lord Syv Aldlark said:

I shouldn't have read the Aeron chapter... makesme even more mad

Dude... you and me both.  I read it almost immediately after watching the last episode.  Nearly turned my blood into soup.

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I've been grumpy here and there about various things mainly in the last two seasons or so...  but the Arya thing in the past two episodes was particularly hard to take...   My complaint really comes down to the writing, I can understand creative differences and taking the story in a different direction, but the writing and directing of the last two episodes (really the Arya part in particular, though I'm just waiting for Euron to have crapped out 1000 ships next time we see him) has been puzzlingly bad....

So, for the writing of Arya's scenes to make any sense (other than just explaining it away as horribly awful) I'm adopting the unlikely theory that because Arya was actually very injured, and the Waif had presumably progressed past Arya's training, that despite the cleverness... Arya died when the lights went out.

Suspend disbelief about how fatal the perforated bowels, infection and blood loss would be... even then its still clear Arya is substantially injured.  I can handle painkillers and plot necessity leading to the zany, painful chase through the city.  I can even believe that Arya is desperate enough to gamble her life on her ability to fight injured, while just having to hope that the Waif skipped "blind-fighting class" in her FM training...   but showing up seemingly uninjured to add a face to the wall, Jaqen saying "finally a girl is truly no one" and "Arya" stating that shes going home (when she just, in the same episode, said shes going west of Westeros, is just too much when taken all together.

Points enumerated:

1) Arya tells Lady Crane shes wants to go see whatever is west of Westeros, the actual destination isn't as important as where shes not mentioning...  she doesn't have a strong desire to go home at that point.  "Arya" at the end of the episode tells Jaqen Hghar that shes going home, and does it with authority...   Discrepancy in destination within the same episode...  waste dialogue time for something you're just going to contradict later? 

2) "Finally, a girl is no one" Makes no sense in this context at all if Jaqen is talking to Arya.  "Arya" is acting more like Arya than ever, shes exuding a stronger sense of identity than any of the other times shes been told that she is NOT no one...  Now Jaqen Hghar telling the Waif (who is wearing Arya's face, and just put her old face in the hall) that shes "Finally no one" makes a lot more sense.  "Arya"'s response is totally in line with the pre-established "game of faces"  Where the apprentice assumes an identity and tries to convince the master its true...  The master then either beats the crap outta said liar (in the case of Arya) or gets a smirk on his face and seems... proud? In this case, the Waif pulls off a convincing impersonation.

3)  Arya is injured, badly... then not?  "Arya" seems in pretty decent shape when hanging the waif face and talking to Jaqen Hghar.

4)  Arya is injured badly... then kills an uninjured heretofore MUCH better fighter who is substantially further along in the same training Arya has been getting?  The candle thing is clever, called by fans of the show pretty much as soon as it was apparent the two had to square off, but the Waif is further along in her training, enough so to be teaching Arya most times...  if blind fighting is part of it, the Waif has already been there and done that.

 

Jaqen letting the Waif go out on a mission to Westeros impersonating the daughter of a politically important house is a less happy scenario, but makes more sense than the alternative, for me.  While it fits the writing better I think its still an unlikely theory, which for my own sanity I'll hold on to, right up until the last episode and just envision the finale ending seemingly 5 minutes early when "Arya" kills someone (that we likely don't want her to) walks around a corner and is transformed into a different person.

 

 

This seems like it fits in this thread, however I tried (unsuccessfully) to make it its own topic, so apologies in advance if I've botched it...

 

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