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20 minutes ago, My friend Alayne Arya mad said:

Just a thought on "becoming no one."  Perhaps every faceless man has to kill another faceless man sent to kill them.  Being given to the many faced god and giving him the killer instead is perhaps how one becomes "no one."

Seems like this is not a sustainable business model for the FM.

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Sorry something is very screwy when I try to quote...

 

Perhaps there is only supposed to be a static number of FM and you must replace one.  My thoughts that led to this are centered around the kindly man saying "Finally a girl..."  I just don't understand what Arya did that is remarkable outside of killing the waif.

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Late to the party but only just saw the episode.

1. I am super disappointed that Arya was just... Arya. I really don't care about her storyline or whether she lives or dies, and I wasn't invested in any of the theories except for the fact that without them her story makes no sense. Agree 100% with those who have said that a line or two from Lady Crane mentioning how her injuries weren't that bad would have been far better than leaving her with massive stab wounds last episode followed by a parkour chase this episode. I was sad for Lady Crane and that we won't be seeing any more of the hilarious play - the only half decent parts of Arya's whole arc for the last two seasons. What a phenomenal waste of time.

2. Riverrun was pretty great, although I could have done without the long lingering stares between Jaime and Brienne - why is it so hard for tv writers to capture friendship and respect between male and female characters without making it weirdly shippy (and shut up Bronn - nobody would fuck Brienne of Tarth - not you, not Pod, not Jaime - that's sort of her whole deal) Loved the Edmure/Jaime scene, and since I have watched Outlander since the last time we saw Edmure, I would have more than happy to watch Jaime kill him. I interpreted Jaime's speech to Edmure slightly differently, as I thought it was a bit of a long winded, rambling answer to Edmure's question of how Jaime lives with himself, and tells himself he's decent. In the books Brienne asks Jaime why he wasted his whole life in the Kingsguard and he doesn't answer, but thinks to himself 'for love, of course'. And I thought this was him saying the same thing - he lives with himself by genuinely believing everything he has done has been for love. He's done terrible things for love, and he will continue to do terrible things, including giving back Edmure's baby "with a trebuchet" (heh). God, Edmure is such a whiny baby (it's war! And last time it was Jaime being held captive by the Tullys - it's not like this is cruel or unusual) I would have liked to put him in the trebuchet.

3. I was so sure about LSH and now I am sad. I adore Cat and would have loved to see her back. Actually... between my love of Catelyn and hatred of Arya and Jaime/Brienne, this whole post may belong in some unpopular opinions thread, if such a thing exists. In related news...

4. I am absolutely rooting for Cersei to burn King's Landing to the ground. Ageing Tommen up has been such a bad move - a seven year old being manipulated into turning against his family would be understandable, a teenager doing it just looks like an asshole. Incidentally, a few people have said that if Cersei is found guilty, Tommen's rule will be undermined, but unless I'm watching wrong, I don't think that's true. She was never accused of incest, she is standing trial for adultery with Lancel, right? Which is treason, as she is the queen, but doesn't have any bearing on Tommen's legitimacy - meaning if she was found guilty, she would be killed and Tommen would remain king. I don't see why Margaery would let Tommen go through with changing the trial, given that it will almost certainly lose Loras his head as well.

5. Tyrion continues to be pointless, but I liked the character beat of having him talk about making wine for only his friends to drink, and then that little pause as he realises he has nobody. Wish they had met the book halfway with Tyrion's depression here (only halfway though - I don't need to know where whores go).

TL;DR: Arya's story is a joke; shut up Bronn; RIP Catelyn; nobody loves Tyrion, and he should really be sadder about that.

Also, I think we know what a trebuchet is - just say trebuchet. It sounds so much better than catapult.

 

 

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56 minutes ago, My friend Alayne Arya mad said:

Sorry something is very screwy when I try to quote...

 

Perhaps there is only supposed to be a static number of FM and you must replace one.  My thoughts that led to this are centered around the kindly man saying "Finally a girl..."  I just don't understand what Arya did that is remarkable outside of killing the waif.

That might be true for the show, but in the books, there are many assumed FM milling about the temple at most times.

 

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8 hours ago, JMJ said:

100% yes. Through 5 books, she has had so many alter egos: Arya Horseface, Arya Underfoot, Arry, Lumpyhead, Weasel, Nymeria, Nan,Squab, Salty, Cat of the Canals, Beth, The Blind Girl, The Ugly Little Girl, Mercy etc. This is the first time as far as I know Arya calls herself "Arya Stark of Winterfell".

Well sense the beginning, but it goes back to that time she left Winterfell with her father and sister. What happened, there was an incident, and Nymeria her wolf was forced to runaway and Arya ran away and hid. And from that point on we see her running away a lot. She does tell Gendry who she is, and Hot Pie, but she keeps moving away from her identity. Riverrun was kind of like the last draw. Essentially she ran away to become no one and ended up finding herself. And maybe she finds Nymeria, at least in the books, I don't know about the show. But as she moves towards Winterfell I think that happens. Because that would be more of her identity returning.

I can't say the show laid it our great but I think it is there.

7 hours ago, olibar said:

I agree that this is the most logical and likely account of events, but I maintain that because we did not see Arya kill the Waif, it allows for a convenient loop hole should GRRM wish to have a major twist in the plot line.  These are face changing assassins, after all, and what better way to infiltrate Westrosi society than by being able to pretend to be the daughter of a prominent house (that is, other than actually having said daughter be a brainwashed tool of your own organization).   

Again, I don't think it's likely that this is the case, but it also possible, given the current text, that we got a switcheroo in the darkness, thus subverting the expected narrative and giving real consequence to Arya's decision to join and then leave the FM.  And if it is the case that we now have a FArya, then the surviving members of house Stark may be in grave danger.

GRRM and the show are two different animals, and Arya did have the Waif's face. Only one way you get those. Anything can happen but it would seem unlikely.

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On June 12, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Undead Cat was in GRRM's outline

she'll have a bigger role than whatever is happening between Jaime and Brienne 

basically whatever Beric does in the show would be your indicator of what alas does in the books 

Maybe she was embalmed and wrapped in strips of white linen so she can come back as Mummy Stark. : = )

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20 hours ago, Big Daddy said:

I thought it was an obvious homage to the Godfather. Oranges were always shown to depict danger or death.

I thought that was the show’s way of telling us they weren't in Bravos, since oranges cannot grow there. Probably they were in Dorne somewhere.

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42 minutes ago, Ser Creighton said:

Well sense the beginning, but it goes back to that time she left Winterfell with her father and sister. What happened, there was an incident, and Nymeria her wolf was forced to runaway and Arya ran away and hid. And from that point on we see her running away a lot. She does tell Gendry who she is, and Hot Pie, but she keeps moving away from her identity. Riverrun was kind of like the last draw. Essentially she ran away to become no one and ended up finding herself. And maybe she finds Nymeria, at least in the books, I don't know about the show. But as she moves towards Winterfell I think that happens. Because that would be more of her identity returning.

I can't say the show laid it our great but I think it is there.

GRRM and the show are two different animals, and Arya did have the Waif's face. Only one way you get those. Anything can happen but it would seem unlikely.

Under the assumption that if they were going for a twist with this, it would have been GRRM who designed it in the first place.  

It's possible the Waif cut off her own face, thus officially becoming a Faceless (wo)Man (going with a very literal interpretation here in regards to final FM initiation and why Jaqen said what he said).  She was wearing Arya's face in the scene and replied that she was Arya Stark and returning to Winterfell because that's what the Waif's mission is.  I don't like this interpretation, and I'm certainly not convinced that it is right, but it seems to be much more in line with what we know about how the FM work.  It would also set up a "heartbreaking" finale for the series, to have FArya reunited with her family, having just won the war against the white walkers (and Danny?) and claimed the rule of Westeros, Jon, Sansa and the rest of the surviving Starks are murdered in their beds by FArya, The End.

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33 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Nope nope nope nope.

And nope.

Why not? Frankengregor has already demonstrated that heads are detachable in Westeros.

Perhaps the Waif cut her own head off.

Edit: Perhaps GRRM will tell us if there is a safety lock mechanism. Be awfully inconvenient if your head came off at the wrong moment. 

Edited by hallam

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5 hours ago, My friend Alayne Arya mad said:

Just a thought on "becoming no one."  Perhaps every faceless man has to kill another faceless man sent to kill them.  Being given to the many faced god and giving him the killer instead is perhaps how one becomes "no one."

Well in the Thuggee death cult, an assassin would kill someone, burn the body, bury the remains in the middle of a road and then go back to their temple and commit ritual suicide.

That was the legend taught by my history master at any rate and it was complete bollocks. It would be utterly unsustainable as the numbers would inevitably decline.

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I don't know if this was discussed yet but how come Jaqen H'ghar told arya that she finally became "no one"?

Why would killing the waif make her "no one"? Also, how come the waif wants to kill her or is allowed to kill her out of personal interest? I thought if you want to join them you have to become "no one" and get rid of your past, basically not caring about anything unless the many faced god requests it

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4 hours ago, dredglol said:

I don't know if this was discussed yet but how come Jaqen H'ghar told arya that she finally became "no one"?

Why would killing the waif make her "no one"? Also, how come the waif wants to kill her or is allowed to kill her out of personal interest? I thought if you want to join them you have to become "no one" and get rid of your past, basically not caring about anything unless the many faced god requests it

I believe the point of Arya being finally No One is that somehow being able to kill the Waif was a final test in the eyes of the FM that Arya passed. As others have wondered, perhaps Jaqen meant for this to happen. I know, it doesn't quite make sense in that it's not like Arya was very stealth or efficient about it.

RE: the Waif, as others have suggested, it's possible Jaqen and the FM were also testing her, in that it was clear the Waif was not able to let go of her emotions and identity either, as she for whatever reason clearly had a grudge against Arya. By not efficiently killing Arya when she had the chance, the Waif failed her task, and in the end she paid for it with her life, and the Many Faced God got his death.

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11 hours ago, dredglol said:

I don't know if this was discussed yet but how come Jaqen H'ghar told arya that she finally became "no one"?

Why would killing the waif make her "no one"? Also, how come the waif wants to kill her or is allowed to kill her out of personal interest? I thought if you want to join them you have to become "no one" and get rid of your past, basically not caring about anything unless the many faced god requests it

Right, it's why I'm saying it makes much more sense that he was actually talking to the Waif wearing Arya's face.  It was the final test for the Waif to become a Faceless Man.  Her mission is to return to Winterfell and assassinate the remaining Starks.  Real Arya didn't want to go back home, she wanted to explore what was "west of Westeros".   

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20 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Nope nope nope nope.

And nope.

If there is something I'm missing that rules out the possibility that the Waif killed Arya and took her place during the fight in the dark, please let me know.  I don't want to believe my own theory but I haven't been able to rule it out based on what we've seen and been told.

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32 minutes ago, olibar said:

Right, it's why I'm saying it makes much more sense that he was actually talking to the Waif wearing Arya's face.  It was the final test for the Waif to become a Faceless Man.  Her mission is to return to Winterfell and assassinate the remaining Starks.  Real Arya didn't want to go back home, she wanted to explore what was "west of Westeros".   

arya has cut off the waif's face though and added it to the "collection of faces" 

it's strange though that arya would do something like that and not use it as a ticket to become a faceless man

what did she want to prove by cutting off the waif's face? did she just do it to find out whether or not jaquen would accept her as faceless man, knowing she would decline?

btw she might've taken some faces with her for disguise :)

Edited by dredglol

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37 minutes ago, olibar said:

Right, it's why I'm saying it makes much more sense that he was actually talking to the Waif wearing Arya's face.  It was the final test for the Waif to become a Faceless Man.  Her mission is to return to Winterfell and assassinate the remaining Starks.  Real Arya didn't want to go back home, she wanted to explore what was "west of Westeros".   

No, just no. 

The Waif is dead, Arya killed her.

If Arya was dead, her face would be on the wall and bobcut would be gloating. The Waif's face cannot be on the wall if she is alive. 

16 minutes ago, dredglol said:

arya has cut off the waif's face though and added it to the "collection of faces" 

it's strange though that arya would do something like that and not use it as a ticket to become a faceless man

what did she want to prove by cutting off the waif's face? did she just do it to find out whether or not jaquen would accept her as faceless man, knowing she would decline?

btw she might've taken some faces with her for disguise :)

The point of putting the Waif's head on a spike was to complete the original contract. The faceless God would not be satisfied until there was a face on the wall. That was the literal contract.

Now it is quite possible that Arya takes the face afterwards but putting the head on a spike was about making sure that she wouldn't be looking over her shoulder for a FM assassin the rest of her life.

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55 minutes ago, hallam said:

 

If Arya was dead, her face would be on the wall and bobcut would be gloating. The Waif's face cannot be on the wall if she is alive. 

 

Do we have proof in the text that is how it works?  Isn't it just as possible that to become a Faceless Man, you remove your own face and add it to the wall?  That you truly become faceless, truly become no one?  

It gives purpose to why they needed the fight to be in the dark.  There are many different ways that they could have shown Arya becoming a better fighter, but blind fighting specifically allowed them to hide the actual fight between Waif and Arya, and therefore hide the proof of who won the fight.

Again, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong by something specific I've missed, but I can't think of anything that actually disproves this as a possibility.

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