[Poll] How would you rate episode 608?

[Eddy1]

5 minutes ago, johndance said:

I'm willing to bet most people here who have kids would have done the same thing. 

It would make sense if his son wasn't a Frey. There's no way Jamie would be permitted to kill one of his allies biggest assets.

[Gargarax]

32 minutes ago, dbunting said:

See, again I am not saying that. I have been stating over and over that a lot of people who dislike the show do so because the show doesn't fit what they want to happen based on their expectations and find any details they can to rant and rave.

If you can suspend belief for one show, or one trope, then why not another? The show is hugely popular and has a loyal following, so it may not be the story telling you and others are looking for, but apparently others are.

Plenty of mis steps in the show no doubt, anything Dorne related, too many brothel scenes, Arya stabbing and quick recovery, too many times where Dany makes a grandeur stance in front of or surfing on a crowd, etc..  But, in my mind, the great things out weigh the others and I am ok with that.

On the contrary, the show does exactly what I expect to happen, which is one thing that makes it such poor storytelling. Everything is predictable. Again, this is a lame excuse - not only is this not the reason why many people dislike the show, the criticism is also definitely not about details. There have literally been hundreds of plotholes since the beginning of season 5, it's silly to dismiss them as details.

Of course there is nothing wrong with people who like the show, if they like that kind of storytelling, that is fine with me. However, saying that popularity has anything to do with the quality of storytelling is a fallacy. In terms of storytelling, the show is doing poorly from an unbiased, objective point of view (Here's how I've tried to explain this before). That didn't bother me in a show like True Blood, which I enjoyed for other reasons than storytelling, but this show used to be a lot better at storytelling, and it's shit at it now.

[Cas Stark]

If we say that the audience starts out with their suspension of disbelief in tact, any program still has to maintain it.  If you inject too many over the top contrivances, then you lose it.  Of course more latitude is given a slasher flick or Bond film, because the expectation is that it's going to be over the top...but GOT started out as a well grounded realistic drama with well drawn, believable characters who lived in a world where magic was real.  Magic being real doesn't exempt the show from making sense, being consistent with itself or having characters act in reasonable ways.

The show has given up on almost all of this original level of grounding and realism in favor of spectacle.  And that's fine, lots of people love escapist spectacle and unearned unrealistic but badass moments.  But GOT can't be both things, it can't be escapist spectacle that utilizes Hollywood action/slasher film tropes and also be grounded in realism.  And what happens again and again, is that you see fans try much much harder to figure out how to keep the show grounded in realism when it's pretty clear the writers no longer bother with this.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Cas Stark

[TinfoilToolate]

6/10, which is the lowest ranking I'd give any episode in the series thus far.  I've always been impressed with the cohesiveness of not just every season, but each episode's narrative.  This episode just fell short of GoT's normal "flow."  Mereen might as well have been ignored entirely.  The Riverlands, while providing with some great dialogue with Brienne/Blackfish/Jaime, and especially Pod and Bronn, really detoured for the worst from the books.  The Blackfish I thought I knew wouldnt standby and let his home be surrendered, and then die for no reason.  He's smarter than that.  Family, Duty, Honor, right?  He put his personal honor before that of his family and duty.  

 

The Brotherhood and Hound scenes were fantastic, though I half expected the Hound to look down as he was pissing off the shores of the Trident and see Catelyns face.  Arya and Braavos scenes were excellent; however Im disappointed we didnt get to see her and the Waifs final fight.  Kings Landing, much like Mereen, seemed absolutely irrelevant to the rest of the episode, and only served to interrupt and stop progress on other storylines.  Now we have 2 episodes to squeeze in the battle for the North, Bran/Meera/Benjen, some greensight flashbacks, the White Walkers and their army, possibly The Wall, Sam/Gilly, Arya's journey home, Dorne(?), Kings Landing, the Iron Born fleet, Euron's pursuit, some more Riverlands stuff, The Vale, and Dany.  2 hours to find enough time to have some kind of resolution, but enough to bring the audience back for one more season, if that is still the goal?  At this point the narrative is becoming very rushed and sloppy, and I'm a little worried about how they are going to set the stage for season 7.  

 

All praises and complaints aside, the preview for next week looks like we will finally get the battle we've been waiting all season for.  The fact that they can drag that out while rushing through all other aspects of the show is a little disappointing to me.

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, Modesty Lannister said:

Can you stop ranting and raving about the people who rant and rave. I read the whole thread and there was no one but you.

Who is ranting? I am not YELLING, or insulting people. I actually thought Gargarax and I were having a civilized discussion, with both making valid sane points.

BTW - misinterpretation of emotions is easy when reading something someone else has written in forums like this.

Edited June 13, 2016 by dbunting
Added the BTW

[dbunting]

45 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

On the contrary, the show does exactly what I expect to happen, which is one thing that makes it such poor storytelling. Everything is predictable. 

So I assume you predicted that Dany would get herself out of the issue with the Dothraki? Not that she would be saved by Jorah and Daario or by Drogon, but that she already had her plan and was ready to do it?

I assume you predicted that Dondarion was still alive and that the BWB were still "somewhat" good guys and that LSH wasn't behind it?

There are times where they get heavy handed with for shadowing, Jaime to Edmure would be one of them, but other times they aren't and that's ok.

This episode probably got my 2nd or 3rd lowest vote of all the ones I have ever given, but there was still plenty about it I found entertaining.

[umuckurlife]

6/10

Low Points

• Braavos.  Arya's completely unrealistic recovery from being stabbed in the gut a few times is a head scratcher.  With all of the training she had, to have this storyline NOT use some Faceless Man tricks is a major disappointment. 
• Meereen.  It was sloppy.  I am SOOO over the bad writing of these scenes!  I'd be pissed if I were Peter Dinklage.  Not even the best actor can salvage a scene with those lines.
• King's Landing. Of all the things I dread for this series, preparing to watch seven bloody septons judge Cersei and Loras is near the top of my list.
  • Granted, I'm pretty sure we won't be seeing a trial.  What we will see should be wild.

High Points

• Sandor Clegane, Beric, and Thoros
• Brienne & Jamie.  I did roll my eyes a bit at the boat to rampart goodbye.
• Jamie & Edmure. 
• Mountain rips a dude's head off.

 

[DireWolfSpirit]

2 hours ago, Not a kneeler said:

Loved it and let me tell you why. Arya's story arc. I think the weakness of this season and all seasons is that D&D are following GRRM's system which involves POVs spun out over a long period. This is tricky in book form, but in TV land it can lead to what seems like useless or next to useless scenes. Watching Arya's story arc in Braavos seemed slow, time wasting, whatever, yet we see her time and again failing to learn. What is she failing to learn? Arya is filled with rage which spills out as impulsive acts of violence or impulsive decisions, such as going back and suddenly saving Lady Crane. She never thinks of consequences, never plans ahead. Everything is in the moment. Over the season we see her do this again and again. We see her reveal herself. This is who Arya is, but can she learn to control it? In the end of this episode finally the payoff. It looks like Arya is just running mindlessly for her life, but she is luring the waif into the place where she has hidden Needle. She couldn't have planned the candle, but either that was just D&D shortcutting which you are allowed to do in TV and not in books, or there really is a reason why the candle was burning. Anyway, Arya springs the trap and kills the waif by controlling the situation. Arya knew she learned to fight in darkness because the waif had trained her while she was blind. The waif lost because she didn't learn. She underestimated Arya.

This whole season has plots cooking on the stove. Cooking, unless you are doing a TV cooking show, is time consuming and this type of narrative makes it possible to watch plots evolve. The other plotlines will do so as well. It does, however, require a bit of patience.

Agreed, and I loved this episode solely based on Arya and Arya's arc. Her journey is my central interest in the entire ASOIAF universe. The other characters are of passing interest but they can all burn in wildfire and I wont bat my eyes. GOT's and ASOIAF is all about Arya Stark for me and I got what I want, her coming home. That is worth a 10 ten times over for me. I couldnt care less about the other scenes compared to this one central fact of Arya defeating the waif, escaping the FM and pivoting towards Winterfell. The entire rest of the GOT characters are just supporting actors to Arya for me.  I enjoy many of the characters (Cersei, the Sandsnakes, Blackfish) and occasionally deplore some of them (Tommen, the HS, Sansa) but none of them have even a remote closeness to the importance of Arya's journey for me. I'm in invested in her story first and foremost. Her injury recovery and the lure were not all that different in scenes from any number of James Bond movies, its a fantasy genre not a biographical depiction ffs.

[JagLover]

Worst episode of the season for me and ranked a 5.

The good. Book scene with Jamie and Edmure, KLs ok but dragging immensely as it is held back for other storylines. Hound OK.

The bad. Tyrion drivelling on and the Arya storyline which people had believed would be more intelligent than the crushingly stupid reality. 

 

 

[JagLover]

6 hours ago, Rhollo said:

What bothers me the most is how it was in no way necessary for the plot that Arya had those serious injuries. If the first attack by the Waif had just resulted in something like, say, a stab in the Arm (because Arya realized what was about to happen and managed to defend herself to some degree), the whole recovery & chase thing wouldn't have been so utterly ridicolous. And also, the Waif wouldn't have looked like such an incompetent assassin for not killing her first try.

All that served was a "Oh my god, is Arya dead"-scare that lasted 5 seconds and i guess most people didn't buy anyway..

What would have worked is a modified version of that storyline. Arya standing on a bridge apparently unconcerned but alert, an attack which she escapes with a wound but one survivable and where a parkour chase is feasible. A chase back to the hideout and then the tables are turned and the lights cut out.   

It wouldnt have been very subtle but it would have worked. What we got was just incredible stupid. 

 

[Gargarax]

1 hour ago, dbunting said:

So I assume you predicted that Dany would get herself out of the issue with the Dothraki? Not that she would be saved by Jorah and Daario or by Drogon, but that she already had her plan and was ready to do it?

I assume you predicted that Dondarion was still alive and that the BWB were still "somewhat" good guys and that LSH wasn't behind it?

There are times where they get heavy handed with for shadowing, Jaime to Edmure would be one of them, but other times they aren't and that's ok.

This episode probably got my 2nd or 3rd lowest vote of all the ones I have ever given, but there was still plenty about it I found entertaining.

First of all, I do appreciate the "civlized discussion" and didn't think you were insulting.

Regarding your comment: I did anticipate Dany would get herself out, but maybe because I've read the last chapter in ADWD which doesn't suggest the plot will employ the save-the-princess-trope. I didn't know Beric was alive in the show (but hoped so), but the show has to prove his purpose first, after so many characters were reintroduced for no good purpose at all. I didn't for a second expect LSH to appear, but I was glad to find the BwB hand not turned rogue.

However, I don't consider your examples good plot points. I agree Dany winning the Dothraki was a major one, but 1. I saw it coming and 2. I found it poorly motivated. The Dothraki were made to appear as savage rapists with no dignity or decency to make Dany's rather brutal coup seem justified. This is one of the things that I find so poorly done: introducing bad guys being really, really evil to increase the payoff of their death. It started with the "Fuck'em till they're dead"-Karl at Craster's, continues witn the Mountain butchering prisoners (probably THE most nonsensical scene of the series) and we had this season with the Dothraki, the BwB butchers and others.

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

The show has given up on almost all of this original level of grounding and realism in favor of spectacle.  And that's fine, lots of people love escapist spectacle and unearned unrealistic but badass moments.  But GOT can't be both things, it can't be escapist spectacle that utilizes Hollywood action/slasher film tropes and also be grounded in realism.  And what happens again and again, is that you see fans try much much harder to figure out how to keep the show grounded in realism when it's pretty clear the writers no longer bother with this.

This sums it up pretty well for me. The show is giving us spectacle - sometimes rather good spectacle, expecially for a TV series. However, I expect more of a show than spectacle, especially one I started watching because it told an interesting and original story with great characters and well-developed conflicts.

[Dolorous Gabe]

3 hours ago, Eddy1 said:

It would make sense if his son wasn't a Frey. There's no way Jamie would be permitted to kill one of his allies biggest assets.

Agreed. There really is no way the Freys would just let such a thing happen.

[Squall]

5/10

Well I'm afraid D&D are totally butchering it, and I'm not talking about visual blood and gore. The lack of a concrete GRRM manuscript seems to incite their imagination and it's not very good. I want a coherent story, not something where I and my friends are laughing the whole time with unlikely plot twists.

The bad

Arya At least she's going home because I don't know what she actually learned in Braavos. She let herself be fooled in Essos. Entertainment Weekly has an elaborate explanation that she finally managed to kill the Waif but if she had really learned, that woman would've died episodes ago.

Riverrun There was no real reason to change the story from the books (at least that's one part D&D could've used the original story). Though it happens in the real world a hostage lord rarely commands his former troops to drop down their guard. The trailers were a red herring. We saw Frey troops marching in the night but they weren't doing any fighting, just moving into the castle. Blackfish seemed to leave Riverrun but he just dies a pointless death.

King's Landing Making Tommen a teenager makes it really hard to make his gullability believable. Perhaps he's just very naive but I don't get why Kevan is supporting the FM. What's in it for him? And there's another red herring: Cersei chooses violence and some nobody bites the dust. Cleganebowl is out for now.

Meereen We already had the failed joke scene, couldn't they delete it and put something else in it or just a short "good joke" "and good wine" and then show the slavers' ships attacking.

The good

Riverrun I liked the Brienne and Jaime interaction. I believe it will be the last time, they're going in opposite directions, but their talk is as close as they're getting with fucking (as Bronn suggests).

Meereen The battle for Meereen is finally happening so my hope is on next episode. Dany seems intent on mopping up this messy situation.

The Hound There's a nice exchange of thoughts with the BWB. But we already know that the Hound doesn't really belong anywhere, he'll always be an outsider and this confirms it again.

Conclusion

I'm pinning my hopes on the final episodes. But this seems to be a point of no return. The writing's bad and it'll be very hard to avoid "nitpicking" on plot holes. I don't expect visual spectacle with large battles but the story fails to engage me with all the suspensions of disbelief I just disconnect. I keep on watching, but for now I'm not really sitting on the edge of my seat for the next episode.

[YOVMO]

43 minutes ago, ImNoSer said:

What else does the show have going for it at this point besides meme culture and massive CGI battles? if there wasnt that meme culture the show would be even worse lol.

my inclination is to say "no, that's not true" but as I think it through I have to admit that this comment is, sad though it might be, perfectly accurate. CHICKEN!

[YOVMO]

Why are people talking about Arya escaping the FM? Escaping? She travelled half the world to get there. Impatiently tried to push herself through training. On 100 occasions refused to leave and said she was no one. Then she finally gets what she wants and, totally out of character, totally changes her story arc. At no point prior to her totally dicking over the Faceless Men for the third time did she not have the ability to just say "peace" and walk out the door. She fought tooth and nail to stay and then, despite them housing her, feeding her and training her, consistently screwed them over every chance she got. Then we are shocked when, after screwing over an assassins guild over and over again, they decide to kill her and we root for her to escape. dafuq is going on on this show?

[YOVMO]

4 minutes ago, Squall said:

I'm pinning my hopes on the final episodes. But this seems to be a point of no return. The writing's bad and it'll be very hard to avoid "nitpicking" on plot holes.

They manage to avoid having plot holes by not bothering to have a cohesive plot. No plot, no plot holes. Viola!

[dannyk65]

This episode was like a dick punch.  Totally incoherent, unnecessary fingerbanging/male rape attempt, Hound pissing toward the camera, another useless cock joke (while Bronn grabs Pod's rod).

It's just 
 

SO

FUCKING

BAD

[dbunting]

15 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

However, I don't consider your examples good plot points. I agree Dany winning the Dothraki was a major one, but 1. I saw it coming and 2. I found it poorly motivated. The Dothraki were made to appear as savage rapists with no dignity or decency to make Dany's rather brutal coup seem justified.

This is one of the things that I find so poorly done: introducing bad guys being really, really evil to increase the payoff of their death. It started with the "Fuck'em till they're dead"-Karl at Craster's, continues witn the Mountain butchering prisoners (probably THE most nonsensical scene of the series

 

As to the Dothraki, in the books all anyone knows about them is that if you don't pay them off they kill pillage rape and take slaves. If you do pay off and it's not enough, repeat scenario 1. I see their portrayal in the show to be pretty faithful to the books. And yes, since her last chapter in the book has her being surrounded by them, we all knew she was going to make them a part of her army(other wise why do they exist in the first place), the only question was the how.

As to the bad guys, yeah, they do make the bad guys really really bad. I guess that's so we can see how much worse they are when compared to the other bad guys in the show. That scene with the Mountain was just stupid and needless. Kind of reminds me of The Walking Dead tv series, they have to keep topping the last bad guy with a worse one. At some point it gets comical.

Funny part is that the show seems to magnify all the book issues. Dorne sucks (in my opinion) in the books and really really sucks on the show. Mereen-Mereenese knot sucked and dragged on in the books and still does on the show. Arya and her FM training seemed pointless in the books as no one believed she would ever not be Arya Stark, and we got the poor payoff this week.

 

I am glad that I wasn't coming off as insulting to you, other people were chiming in as if we weren't being civil and that's annoying.

BTW, I still say best part of this episode was the preview for next week!

[YOVMO]

5 minutes ago, dannyk65 said:

This episode was like a dick punch.  Totally incoherent, unnecessary fingerbanging/male rape attempt, Hound pissing toward the camera, another useless cock joke (while Bronn grabs Pod's rod).

It's just 
 

SO

FUCKING

BAD

BUT CHICKEN MAN CHICKEN

 

Seriously though, dick punches make much more sense than this episode. Yup. I am willing to say it (Dick Punch) > (No One)

[Cas Stark]

Is a well choreographed battle and "feel good" Stark moment really going to make up for the hash that the show has turned the Northern story into?  A couple good fight scenes and raise the Direwolf banner and all of the previous nonsensical actions of everyone in this plot is forgotten and forgiven?

Not me.  The North may not remember, but I do.