King Louis II (KLII) Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 1 minute ago, YOVMO said: You are exactly correct with laziness and lack of creativity. However, I think it is more than that. I want to tread lightly here, but I think a huge part of the problem is simply hubris. The writers of this show have been bullet proof from the critics, worshipped by the fans, coddled by the network, heaved praise upon from every single angle season after season after season. How many times do you think d&d walk into a room and say something like "I've got a great line....something about needing a bad pussy" and the writers who are subordinate say "ooooh, erm, yeah, so...that's really fucking terrible" No, it doesn't happen. They walk in and say "oooh let's get Jamie to say "the things I do for love" and the hound to say he wishes he had some chicken" and a room full off people give them the praise equivalent of a hand job -- why...because they are working on game of thrones and that is a pretty dope job. Being insulated from serious criticism is a problem. Watch the post show d&d interviews. They are incredibly pleased with their product. They look excited when they talk about it. I have serious doubts that there are people close to them that will take them to task if the writing seems lazy, contrived, illogical or just plain bad. That's right. Thats why my biggest concern is GoT becoming LOST 2.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Just now, King Louis II (KLII) said: That's right. Thats why my biggest concern is GoT becoming LOST 2.0 That is a serious concern indeed. My question is simple though. What is D&D's job? Is there job to turn out the best quality product possible or is there job to win accolades and fans and ratings for the show. If I am being honest, if their job is the later they are doing a wonderful job. If I was an HBO producer who didn't give a shit about asoiaf and only cared about network ratings, reviews, awards and shit like that I would be creaming my pants with glee over these two writing the show. I hate what they are doing to this show, but in no way can I argue that they have been successful. However, being successful at the business of television is not the same as turning out quality product. I am not sure they see the difference because they seem to be very happy with the product they are turning out (for reasons stated above) and are more than happy to conflate the commercial success and the quality of the writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Louis II (KLII) Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, YOVMO said: That is a serious concern indeed. My question is simple though. What is D&D's job? Is there job to turn out the best quality product possible or is there job to win accolades and fans and ratings for the show. If I am being honest, if their job is the later they are doing a wonderful job. If I was an HBO producer who didn't give a shit about asoiaf and only cared about network ratings, reviews, awards and shit like that I would be creaming my pants with glee over these two writing the show. I hate what they are doing to this show, but in no way can I argue that they have been successful. However, being successful at the business of television is not the same as turning out quality product. I am not sure they see the difference because they seem to be very happy with the product they are turning out (for reasons stated above) and are more than happy to conflate the commercial success and the quality of the writing. You may be right, but I think the reason that the show is so successful it is the uniqueness. Major characters dying, no good/bad characters, "middle ages" being portrait without fantasy glamour/romanticism. Basically NOT BEING LIKE NORMAL ACTION MOVIES. If they start to detract to that and keep going towards typical Hollywood movies then the series will become more and more cookie-cutter. Funny that the success my be driven than further away from their initial goal. That's why Arya/Waif scene and Dany immediately burning the Dothraki made me so angry.... added in EDIT; With LOsT was a bit like that, the success made them change and become the biggest frustration in TV (however I think it was a scam since the begining but I don't want to derail the discussion) Edited June 14, 2016 by King Louis II (KLII) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Just now, King Louis II (KLII) said: You may be right, but I think the reason that the show is so successful it is the uniqueness. Major characters dying, no good/bad characters, "middle ages" being portrait without fantasy glamour/romanticism. Basically NOT BEING LIKE NORMAL ACTION MOVIES. If they start to detract to that and keep going towards typical Hollywood movies then the series will become more and more cookie-cutter. Funny that the success my be driven than further away from their initial goal. That's why Arya/Waif scene and Dany immediately burning the Dothraki made me so angry.... If you would have said this yesterday I would have agreed 100% but I have done some thinking. Yes, the reason the show caught on was for just the reasons you said...the books too. However, it is possible that terminal velocity was hit and they couldn't grow any more. The truth is, normal action movies in Hollywood make a lot, a lot, a freaking dumptruck full of money every single day. Stuff like the aria/waif scene and dany burning the dothraki (forgetting that the dothraki are fiercely loyal to their kahls and have traditions and are not just stupid savages etc) and all the other mindfuckingly dumb things they have done is exactly the kind of stuff that big budget blockbuster Hollywood movies use to drag in audiences to the tune of hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. At some point this show went from a pretty good television adaption of asoiaf to "TITS! DRAGONS! CHICKEN! YAYYYYYY!!!!!" and while purists like me (and I am assuming you) are depressed about it here we are still watching while millions of others are there just cheering along for the tropes that avoiding used to be the whole point of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lothar Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: 1) Why is it a problem that he wants to get back to his sister? It shows that he has zero development. If Cersei is still what's driving all his decisions, then he hasn't changed from the beginning. In the book, his primary motivations in Riverrun are to do good, to be a better person, to settle things without breaking his vows. In the show, it's to have sex with his sister. He said he would kill every last person to get back with Cersei and I believe him. I see no sign that he's lying. Quote 2) Why is it a problem that Blackfish is dead? It isn't. The problem is that he's a moron. The problem is he's willing to throw away his life in an unwinnable battle rather than do what he can to help his family. That erases all the care that we ever had for him. Family is in his house motto. Why bother to do anything with him if they're just going to go "Hey, this guy is actually just a moronic douche." What a complete waste of screentime. Quote What did they do to Edmures character that was undone? He was always a craven and incompetent, is he supposed to be on some redemption arc as well? I'm looking for a point of all the Riverrun scenes. Since it didn't do anything for Jaime's character, and it didn't do anything for Blackfish, maybe it did something to make us feel more for Edmure. And in the scene with Jaime that seemed to be the case. While Jaime seemed like a total piece of shit, I did appreciate Edmure standing up to him, being strong after everything he's had to go through, remembering Catelyn and thinking Jaime didn't even deserve to talk about her. Edmure's actor was so good that it really worked. But it was all thrown away by what Edmure did after the scene. So what was the point of it? What did we learn? Edited June 14, 2016 by Lothar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Did you not notice it was Brienne who got him to take the castle in a non violent manner, which he did. The turning point in his character is just happening now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Live The Onion King Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 3 minutes ago, Lothar said: It isn't. The problem is that he's a moron. The problem is he's willing to throw away his life in an unwinnable battle rather than do what he can to help his family. That erases all the care that we ever had for him. Family is in his house motto. Why bother to do anything with him if they're just going to go "Hey, this guy is actually just a moronic douche." What a complete waste of screentime. I'm looking for a point of all the Riverrun scenes. Since it didn't do anything for Jaime's character, and it didn't do anything for Blackfish, maybe it did something to make us feel more for Edmure. And in the scene with Jaime that seemed to be the case. While Jaime seemed like a total piece of shit, I did appreciate Edmure standing up to him, being strong after everything he's had to go through, remembering Catelyn and thinking Jaime didn't even deserve to talk about her. Edmure's actor was so good that it really worked. But it was all thrown away by what Edmure did after the scene. So what was the point of it? What did we learn? Agreed. The Blackfish joining Sansa and Jon would've been much more compelling. In the books he's referred to as a great warrior. Maybe they start getting more northern support with him on their side. The whole Riverrun story seems like a waste of time. Brienne and Pod travel down, fail, travel back. Big deal. I get failure happens but this could've been better in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lothar Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 5 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: Did you not notice it was Brienne who got him to take the castle in a non violent manner, which he did. The turning point in his character is just happening now. So he could get back to having sex with his sister as quickly as possible. His motivations for why he's doing something makes a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Okay, lets say that's correct. He's now going to start some character development. How is that going to work? If as is widely suspected and foreshadowed sis burns KL to the ground, will this be the reason her brother finally cuts the tie? Because she went nuts? I hope not. That he would have remained crazy in love with her until she, herself, went crazy, and then is like, oh, I see now, you were always bad, when she's at her lowest point...that would be ridiculous and not much character development. But then , is he still going to love her after she burns KL down? That would be somewhat more believable, but then if your sister can burn down an entire city killing thousands and thousands of innocent people and you still love her, then nothing at all can turn you off. So, yet again, the show has sort of set itself up for failure, whatever Jamie does now, is going to be very abrupt, artificial and totally out of keeping with the character we've seen. He leaves her now, if she goes nuts, is not very character developing, abandoning your mentally ill lover..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 4 hours ago, YOVMO said: Reading through the posts here is odd. Every time I read someone saying the episode was more than 3/10 I have to re-read because I assume they are being sarcastic. I literally read one positive review like 4 times before I realized the poster actually liked it and wasn't joking. This is how bad it is. I think scores of 2 or 3 are generous and 4 and above are totally sarcastic or tongue in cheek. It seems like in every rating thread, there's someone complaining about other posters' ratings. These numbers really don't mean anything, so I'm not sure why you care so much. Let people vote how they want to vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 20 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: Okay, lets say that's correct. He's now going to start some character development. How is that going to work? If as is widely suspected and foreshadowed sis burns KL to the ground, will this be the reason her brother finally cuts the tie? Because she went nuts? I hope not. That he would have remained crazy in love with her until she, herself, went crazy, and then is like, oh, I see now, you were always bad, when she's at her lowest point...that would be ridiculous and not much character development. But then , is he still going to love her after she burns KL down? That would be somewhat more believable, but then if your sister can burn down an entire city killing thousands and thousands of innocent people and you still love her, then nothing at all can turn you off. So, yet again, the show has sort of set itself up for failure, whatever Jamie does now, is going to be very abrupt, artificial and totally out of keeping with the character we've seen. He leaves her now, if she goes nuts, is not very character developing, abandoning your mentally ill lover..... I'm not going to argue its not abrupt, or that there hasn't been too much of him in character stasis. But that this is his turning point is a totally valid twist. He meets Brienne again it reminds him of who he could be and it will let him see Cercei in a new light, all of which will come to bear once she's burnt down the city and killed his son. He doesn't have to stop loving Cercei to hate her or want to distance himself from what she represents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 12 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said: It seems like in every rating thread, there's someone complaining about other posters' ratings. These numbers really don't mean anything, so I'm not sure why you care so much. Let people vote how they want to vote. I didn't mean to complain about their ratings per se. I was more saying something about my own view of things in that it wasn't like some of the other episodes that I didn't like but could totally see how others did....but rather I am genuinely baffled how they got away with this one. I understand that there are different ways to watch and appreciate something and that tastes do run subjective....but at some point things just seem irreparably bad...so much so that I am shocked that the feeling wasn't universal...something more about me than about anyone who felt otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: I'm not going to argue its not abrupt, or that there hasn't been too much of him in character stasis. But that this is his turning point is a totally valid twist. He meets Brienne again it reminds him of who he could be and it will let him see Cercei in a new light, all of which will come to bear once she's burnt down the city and killed his son. He doesn't have to stop loving Cercei to hate her or want to distance himself from what she represents. Twist is the word. But then I miss Cersei going slowly crazy after finally getting everything she said she wanted, and destroying it all. Lena could have KILLED it, getting more and paranoid, making more bad decisions, alienating her brother, ranting and raving while getting drunk in the Red Keep...that could have been her Emmy winning stretch for GOT. They could have still pulled that off this year. Instead, she's like Jon Snow, muted in the extreme and then out of nowhere SHOCKER...eh. I trust that she will give a great performance when she finally goes off the deep end, but instead of a season long arc of deliciously unhinged Cersei it will probably be like 2 minutes worth. So many missed opportunities.... ETA..even a number of mainstream critics have complained this year that KL was boring...Lena going mad, that would have kept it much more interesting. Edited June 14, 2016 by Cas Stark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalunadelmar Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: But then I miss Cersei going slowly crazy after finally getting everything she said she wanted, and destroying it all. Lena could have KILLED it, getting more and paranoid, making more bad decisions, alienating her brother, ranting and raving while getting drunk in the Red Keep...that could have been her Emmy winning stretch for GOT. They could have still pulled that off this year. Instead, she's like Jon Snow, muted in the extreme and then out of nowhere SHOCKER...eh. I trust that she will give a great performance when she finally goes off the deep end, but instead of a season long arc of deliciously unhinged Cersei it will probably be like 2 minutes worth. So many missed opportunities.... I would have loved to see Cersei slowly unravel and grow more and more paranoid. That would have been so much more interesting to watch. And I agree, Lena would have been able to pull that off more than convincingly. Edited June 14, 2016 by lalunadelmar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lothar Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 29 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: I'm not going to argue its not abrupt, or that there hasn't been too much of him in character stasis. But that this is his turning point is a totally valid twist. He meets Brienne again it reminds him of who he could be and it will let him see Cercei in a new light, all of which will come to bear once she's burnt down the city and killed his son. He doesn't have to stop loving Cercei to hate her or want to distance himself from what she represents. I thought this was going to be the case going into the episode and I hoped for it but I don't see it. How is he seeing Cersei in a new light? There's no evidence of that. Jaime turning on her for burning down the city and killing his son would be awful because that wouldn't be something brought on by Jaime's personal growth. He would have reacted the same way on Season 1 Episode 1 if she revealed herself to be as insane as Aerys and tried to burn down the city and kill his children. That means he has had no development. If Cersei is needed to become a monster so Jaime could finally be turned against her, that doesn't say much for his character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Offensive. These two utterly worthless hacks are out of ideas and they had no talent to begin with it. They are just trolling us now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guess who's back Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Giving it a 5. Overall it wasn't a bad episode, but all the hype that was killed, all the potential they had with Arya's storyline (fucking theories were great). It just makes me sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brAnthelAstgreenseer Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 This was the worst episode in the GoT series . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BellaBee Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Puh, that was somehow not satisfying. I am wondering, if the last two episodes will be completely awesome or if there is just so much not happening? So, Super-Arya against the Terminator. I lovelovelove, that she is going back, and the chase was amusing, but ..... ok. Gut wounds are usually very ugly... Blackfish should have gone north! no good ending for him! Tyrion - I used to like him a lot, but those scenes are completely pointless. Warming up with Greyworm and Messi? The writing here is indeed not perfect. And all Dany did in this season is getting the Dothraki support. Nothing more. I would expect Asha and Theon arriving now entering directly into the fight, like Victarion will do in the books (Barristan chapters). Next episode? Then in 10 Dany FINALLY leaving Meereen and heading west. PLEASE!!!! BwB going North is great, having the Hound with them is even better. Good!! Jamie and Brienne. For me the whole thing about the Riverlands was about those two. My favorite couple! I think Brienne reminded him of the honor part and when then Edmure was so negative, he simply used this to get Riverrun without killing anyone. Edmure did believe, he would kill the kid, which he never would, but he was playing the villain to get into that castle. The whole Cersei thing was made up. He was probably mostly trying to prevent fighting against Brienne. Loved the scene of them looking at each other when Brienne was leaving. Hope they end up together! (ok, my opinion....) So part of my problem with this episode is, that I already had 2 (?) episodes without anything happening, so I want action! Not battle necessary, I could also live with the Tower of Joy or more visions. So, hoping for the battle of bastards then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Lothar said: I thought this was going to be the case going into the episode and I hoped for it but I don't see it. How is he seeing Cersei in a new light? There's no evidence of that. Jaime turning on her for burning down the city and killing his son would be awful because that wouldn't be something brought on by Jaime's personal growth. He would have reacted the same way on Season 1 Episode 1 if she revealed herself to be as insane as Aerys and tried to burn down the city and kill his children. That means he has had no development. If Cersei is needed to become a monster so Jaime could finally be turned against her, that doesn't say much for his character. I think its more about how Jamie see's himself. He is clearly conflicted about wanting to be good and having to constantly do evil deeds to get things done. Seeing Brienne seems to be the turning point for that. I'm guessing once he gets back to Cercei he will see the bit of himself he hates within her and start to move away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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