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TheGreenBell

What is Edmure doing?

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9 minutes ago, Soccer69 said:

BF knew the Frey threats were empty, that in the long run Edmure was a dead man walking (he is a prisoner of the Freys, who hate the Tully's, who are not above murder, and the War is almost over and Edmure has pretty much served his purpose to the Freys), and the men with BF were supposed to have more respect for him, I believe, than the show made it out.  BF recruited those men to retake the castle, then they all just blindly give up when the Lannisters arrive and act like they didn't think a siege would actually occur.  The fact that the BF's men so willingly betrayed him, to his face, in order to appease Edmure (a current Frey/Lannister prisoner), especially after the BF has been made out to be a leader and well liked man among his men, was terrible writing.

They were Tully men not blackfish... Edmure was the lord over those men and unless they would have to betrayed their King Edmure. We don't know if those men were willing to die for blackfish and be caught up in a long siege they could not win. When it comes to life or death people do different things beside having honor. 1. Edmure was their rightful Lord, 2. Lannister/Frey siege was a certain death for anyone in the castle. Besides not showing Blackfish fight was the only problem I have. Most people liked the character and hated to see it end that way by his life being traded for safety. Never know with BWB around hopefully he might be brought back 

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9 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Blackfish has wisdom. He read that situation from a mile away.  Edmure is a fool. And him showing up at the gate alone demanding entry, was clearly a Lannister move. Edmure had no control over what was going to happen. Had Edmure had any sense. He would have understood his uncle's initial position of not surrendering the castle. Then they should have had a debate and Edmure could have shown some character development by telling his uncle that he is not gonna let him or any more Tully men be killed.  Then helped him to escape.  The way they played it, Edmure simply looks like a coward, fool, and turn cloak. You saw the way the Tully commander who backed his entry into Riverrun looked at him...

What wisdom does Blackfish have? How to successfully commit a group suicide? Defending the castle might have seemed admirable when he believed the cause is lost, the Freys are gonna execute Edmure and everyone is going to die anyway. It might have originated from his family and Stark loyalty, from the sense of duty to his dead king, from honor where was nothing else left. But when Edmure comes back, Blackfish shits on all three. Whether he likes it or not, Edmure is the rightful Lord of Riverrun and actually has the authority to negotiate with the Lannisters and yield the castle.

Edmure coming back to the castle gives the Tullys advantage, compared to the previous situation. Blackfish should have worked with him. Edmure should have worked with Blackfish. Against the Lannisters, towards what's best left for the family's interests. But no, the show just made them unsympathetic, totally unable to cooperate and uninterested in it, and that's why I am saying they ruined both of the characters.

 

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8 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Blackfish has wisdom. He read that situation from a mile away.  Edmure is a fool. And him showing up at the gate alone demanding entry, was clearly a Lannister move. Edmure had no control over what was going to happen. Had Edmure had any sense. He would have understood his uncle's initial position of not surrendering the castle. Then they should have had a debate and Edmure could have shown some character development by telling his uncle that he is not gonna let him or any more Tully men be killed.  Then helped him to escape.  The way they played it, Edmure simply looks like a coward, fool, and turn cloak. You saw the way the Tully commander who backed his entry into Riverrun looked at him...

Yep the commander was like "WTF did i just do"  My asshole lord just killed us all and the BF was right.

 

So Edmure traded his family home, lands, titles and honour for his wife and childs life (who he doesnt even know met his wife 1 night, and never met his son... assuming he has one).  It makes no sense.  

 

THe only thing i could see make sense is if Jamie let him keep the castle.  The problem is Jamie told him he could live in dragonstone.(i think thats what he said).  Makes no sense at all considering the family words are "Family Duty Honor".

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51 minutes ago, W1NT3RF3LL said:

I don't think it ruined his character at all.  I think it was pretty clear in the books as well as on the show that their relationship was not good at all.  On top of that Edmure for all intents and purposes is kind of a dink. He doesn't seem all that intelligent and the decisions that he has made have been piss poor.  Frankly, Edmure disliked his Uncle as his Uncle disliked him.

In the show maybe but definitely not in the books. If book!Edmure disliked the Blackfish so much why did he let him escape at the risk of his own life?

 

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I agree with not seeing BF die, that was very underwhelming. I understand they were Tully men and not BF men but BF was the only free Tully remaining at the time. He convinced those men to take RR from the Frey's (obviously we don't know if he convinced them to take it to free Edmure or just to retake their leige Lord's home) but they agreed to help with the understanding that a siege would occur. I don't understand the point to agree to perform an act (take RR), when you know there will be a response (siege), which will end 1 of 2 ways, 1. death 2. taking the black (there is the 3rd option, they win, but very unlikely). So, there has to be some loyalty or trust created in this instance between the men and BF, yet as soon as Edmure returns there is no rational thought that maybe we shouldn't rush to do something stupid here, like surrender. Further, everyone has stated how many poor decisions Edmure made during the war and during his life, yet no one thinks twice about surrendering and putting the Bf in chains.

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9 minutes ago, Xarkar said:

Yep the commander was like "WTF did i just do"  My asshole lord just killed us all and the BF was right.

 

So Edmure traded his family home, lands, titles and honour for his wife and childs life (who he doesnt even know met his wife 1 night, and never met his son... assuming he has one).  It makes no sense.  

 

THe only thing i could see make sense is if Jamie let him keep the castle.  The problem is Jamie told him he could live in dragonstone.(i think thats what he said).  Makes no sense at all considering the family words are "Family Duty Honor".

He said Castely Rock - Lannister house seat, not Dragonstone - belong to Stannis now Baratheons/Crown

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I think they did this RR storyline just to keep book readers happy it was involved in the show. Otherwise, this entire RR story was absolute filler. It was a way to bring the BF in for a few scenes and show Briene and Jaime meeting again. Pointless, and the wave Jaime did was so fucking cheesy I wanted to puke( like she could see that from that distance anyway). Was that supposed to start his redemption arc?? God I hope not. Just such a waste of time. Sheesh 

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"Family. Duty. Honor."  The Tully words.

Blackfish did not chose family members.  He chose family seat.

Edmure chose the family he has not seen.

 

... or something like that.

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It seems like the whole BF, Riverrun story was expanded to fill time.  

We got "A little diddy, bout Jamie and Brienne, two Westerosi knights meeting up in the river lands"

We also got Pod n Bronn,  acting like two old frat boys from Kings Landing U.

I think they wanted to let us know what happened to Edmure, have jamie and Brienne meet again (before Jamie dies IMO) 

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I read that look of resentment totally differently  - more like get out while you still can old man so I fully expected a BF escape. Why didn't Edmure order his arrest right then?

Maybe he didn't go down fighting and we will get a Ghost of Riverrun killing Freys one by one.

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I just don't get why they changed it. If they don't want the Blackfish going North, have him agree to surrender along with the castle in order to save Edmure's kid. Maybe he'd be willing to sacrifice Edmure, but I'd be perfectly willing to believe that he wouldn't want to be the cause of Edmure's anguish as his son is splattered against the walls of Riverrun. Then have him be a prisoner, never to appear again. Now both characters look better and the whole situation seems tragic.

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5 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Up to this episode, I thought that the Blackfish was the gruff uncle who cared about his nephew nonetheless. Sure, he disparaged him before, he had no patience for his goofiness, he even told the Freys to slit his throat - when you still could interpret this like the book-like 'just do it already, I know you're not going to let him live'. But this episode ruined him and ruined Edmure. It's ruined right in the moment hen Edmure shows up at the gate, clearly alone, demands entry, and Blackfish starts a pissing contest about who is the lord.

I mean, this guy let Brienne to enter, negotiated with the Kingslayer, and now is refusing to talk to the rightful Lord of the Riverrun?

And, let's quote that Frey, if Jaime was wrong, it could be the moment they freed their most valuable prisoner.

Blackfish got a gift, he got the chance to plot with Edmure, he got his nephew returned, it would be a good thing for them both... if he actually cared about anything other than being the one calling the shots. They made him a stubborn old fool. They made him not the guyt who was just a realist about Edmure's chances to survive before, no, he really meant he would be better off without him, just kill my nephew, so I could be the uncontested boss.

They made Blackfish pathetic, one dimentional, and they gave him a humiliating death in hands of the Tully soldiers.

Now, Edmure had a better excuse to screw Blackfish over, but it still came off as spiteful. The final impression of the House Tully members? Two resentful guys willing to throw each other under the Lannister bus on the spot. 'Family, Duty, Honor' is as much of a joke now as the Martell's words now.

The ruined the siege, ruined the Tullys, ruined negotiations, and killed the conclusion too, because in story there was a point to be made about taking Riverrun without bloodshed. But sure, screw that. Let's fill in with cheap drama instead.

And keep ruining Jaime. Who is the exact same douche that threw Bran from a window to be with cerseiiiiiii

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7 hours ago, Ludo Kressh said:
1 hour ago, FastestTurtle said:

"Family. Duty. Honor."  The Tully words.

Blackfish did not chose family members.  He chose family seat.

Edmure chose the family he has not seen.

 

... or something like that.

And the Blackfish told the Freys to slit his nephew's throat...for a pile of rocks in a river and the argument he had with the Tully commander about letting Edmure in. And you clearly see the resentment on Edmure's face when he came in and saw his uncle. And I'm sure handing over the Blackfish was part of the terms Jaime and the Freys laid down and not necessarily Edmure's idea.

He was named "Blackfish" for good reason. He had a falling out with his brother, that is why he left. He was an outcast. He only returned when his brother was dieing.

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1 minute ago, tugela said:

He was named "Blackfish" for good reason. He had a falling out with his brother, that is why he left. He was an outcast. He only returned when his brother was dieing.

He had a falling out with his brother who was something of a willful prick (as we've seen with Lysa, at least the book version). He was disobedient. He was an individualist. He was stubborn. But at the core he was still loyal to his family.

In the show he was just an asshole. because D&D don't do nuances.

10 minutes ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

And keep ruining Jaime. Who is the exact same douche that threw Bran from a window to be with cerseiiiiiii

Yes, that's true, but I've already given up on Show Jaime and Edmure & Blackfish butchering is new and hurtful.

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This is the butterfly effect from changing the book material, but not thinking it through.  As mentioned before, Edmure allows Blackfish to escape before the surrender, causing Jamie to get mad at Edmure. 

Also, Blackfish and Robb's book wife don't go to The Twins, so they are not there for the Red Wedding.  Blackfish was ordered to protect Riverrun and Robb's wife and he will continue to do his duty even after Robb's death.  Blackfish doesn't trust the Freys after what the did at the Red Wedding.  He thinks they will kill Edmure and everybody in Riverrun if they surrender.  Jamie said he will spare everybody's life if Edmure surrenders the castle, but kill everybody inside if the Lannister/Frey forces have to take the castle.  Edmure and Blackfish will also have to become prisoners of the Lannister's. There is also a Brothers without Banners member, undercover with the Frey forces, who goes into Riverrun after the surrender and who may have had contact with Edmure before the surrender, when Edmure was a Frey prisoner. 

Edmure and Blackfish should be on more friendly terms, but the show has character assassinated them because they are not fan-favorites. 

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9 hours ago, Alex7s said:

lol I overestimated the writers when it came to Arya and the Waif. I had better plot in mind. So I will now just assume what Edmure is doing is just bad writing. 

I want to apply for a writer's position on the show -_-

This.

D&D suck.

Abandon hope.

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I really hate that they've taken Edmure's one moment of badass away from him. They've consistently shown him as a complete moron and probably thought that the audience was too stupid to understand any nuance. Is he really such a spinelss coward? Larry just told him he can't afford to wait. And why is everybody listening to him when they've just been how the Freys/Lannisters treat their prisoners? I get not denying him entry but when he orders them to surrender?

Blackfish is almost worse - instead of welcoming an opportunity to free his nephew, even if for a time, he would rather keep him a prisoner? And given the perfect reason to live and fight another day, exactly what family, AND honor demand, he throws his life away for no reason? Hell, why not take Edmure along to plot a rebellion?

Also, didn't Larry promise Brienne that the Tully men would be free to march North if the castle fell without bloodshed? Why is she sneaking away under the cover of darkness? Shouldn't she be fulfilling her duty and her oath to Sansa by demanding Jaime keeps his word? 

All of this is even more infuriating when you realise that this entire sequence changed absolutely nothing. Why is it even in the show FFS?

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Blackfish was a complete moron. He could have left the castle with all the Tully men alive and with their arms and would have been granted safe passage North. Instead he decides it's better they all die in the castle with him, men who aren't even sworn to him. BF had it coming and glad he died. 

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