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TheGreenBell

What is Edmure doing?

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10 minutes ago, Ser Goosey said:

Well, okay.  What happens to Edmure now? Can Edmure now live peaceful life with his wife (and purported kid)? 

It's up to Jaime for Edmure and up to the Frey for the baby/wife.

But I guess we'll be let supposing it's the case as I doubt they'll spend more time on his storyline.

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On 6/13/2016 at 0:50 AM, lordalton said:

Edmure is securing his place as one of the few good people in Westeros.  No he isn't going to choose to let Jamie murder his child over honor and a stupid pile of rocks in a river.

That's actually pretty selfish and cowardly -- by lowering the drawbridge to Frey and Lannister forces he risks the life of every person in Riverrun to mass slaughter, exactly what the Lannisters did in King's Landing. And his family loses their communal land forever, without a fight.

Ultimately Jaime could decide to murder his child anyway.

It was a foolish and cowardly move in every way conceivable.

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5 hours ago, Donaldys I Trumpagar said:

That's actually pretty selfish and cowardly -- by lowering the drawbridge to Frey and Lannister forces he risks the life of every person in Riverrun to mass slaughter, exactly what the Lannisters did in King's Landing. And his family loses their communal land forever, without a fight.

Ultimately Jaime could decide to murder his child anyway.

It was a foolish and cowardly move in every way conceivable.

The thing that bothers me is less that it's a cowardly move (because we've never gotten the impression that Edmure is particularly brave) and more the fact that it's not even internally consistent within even this single episode!! First he reminds Jaime that the last time he trusted the Lannister / Freys, his entire family was massacred... and then he gives up everything he has left because Jaime's given him his word that, in spite of a host of Lannister / Freys out there, no one will be harmed.

I mean, sure, Jaime's speech about launching his kid against the walls wasn't bad, but I don't think it's good enough to erase the memory of the Red Wedding. That's cowardly and stupid, yes, but above all it's just bad writing. 

And sure, I can also believe that when Edmure gets into Riverrun, he's not in a mood to talk to the uncle who told the Freys to go ahead and hang him, but what I can't believe is that the Blackfish doesn't walk right up to him and say "Hey, nephew, before you do anything rash, let's talk." I mean, he's seen exactly what the Freys / Lannisters have put Edmure through; wouldn't he at least attempt to talk him out of giving up the castle to them?? If anyone has a reason to hate the LanniFreys, it's Edmure, so why not give it at least a shot, even if your nephew's a disappointment? 

Oh, right. Because we don't have time for that right now, and so we're just gonna make them both look kinda stupid and inconsistent rather than trying to write them well. 

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The point isn't that Edmure overly trusts Jamie now, its more that he just has had enough of what hes got at the moment and the possibility of going to live in Casterly Rock and just do the quiet life thing is enough for him to give away a castle. He's willing to take that risk. 

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10 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

1, Obvious and cowardly. He has no guarantee their promises are true.

2, IDK if I was Edmure I might want to at least have a bath and something decent to eat first - who knows when I'll have the chance next? 

3, Wait, what? How did Jaime advance his character? If anything, he's regressed to his season 1 character -War for Cersei's cunt is upon us.

1) Doesn't matter, he was prepared to take the risk, because what he really wanted was to be away from there and live an easier life.

2) huh? That would have been a fun scene.  I'm sure GRRM would have devoted a chapter to a bath and a meal.

3) I'll admit he hasn't done much over the past 2 seasons, but this is the point where things kick in for Jamie.

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29 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

1) Doesn't matter, he was prepared to take the risk, because what he really wanted was to be away from there and live an easier life.

2) huh? That would have been a fun scene.  I'm sure GRRM would have devoted a chapter to a bath and a meal.

3) I'll admit he hasn't done much over the past 2 seasons, but this is the point where things kick in for Jamie.

1, It does matter because to believ e that life is possible he needs to trust the people that have slaughtered his family and thrown him in a dungeon (and obviously not treated him kindly). Yet he takes Jaime at his word without the slightest hesitation or any attempt to screw him over. In the books he's at least protecting RL men and saving his uncle while takin. A calculated risk. Here he's just an idiot and a traitor.

2, Oh he did. You will recall Esmure had until dawn to yield the castle and he wouldn't have had much to do once Blackfish sneaked out.

12 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:



3) The story is a jamie story mainly. It advanced his character.

3, So what is the truth? Either he advanced his character or things haven't kicked off yet. He hasn't and there's absolutely no reason they will based on what we've seen. This is bona fide S1 Jaime.

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Speaking about a bath, the choice to have made Jaime make his offer to a tied Edmure, instead of taking a bath with him changed dynamics a lot I think.

In the books Jaime treats Edmure well before the threats, and place him in a situation where Edmure can try to kill him (which Edmure threatens to do). He releases him after Edmure has renounced doing so.

Jaime is also more into psychology making the bard sing the rains of Castamere.

There's also the visible contempt Jaime shows about the Freys (while reminding the Tullys he was not involved in their trahison),  giving some reasons to believe he won't be as cruel is he isn't forced to.

Another point is the existence of Tully vassals, Jaime's threat isn't only about Edmure's baby, he threaten to send his former men in first line to retake Riverrun, forcing the Tullys to kill men who are only there because the Freys have their relatives as hostages.

Even without the Tom of the Seven probable subplot, these two things make Edmure choice far more understandable, and Jaime as well. Jaime shows Edmure the carrot as much as the stick (and a bigger stick than just the baby story which is just icing on the cake), and give him some reasons to believe he will be treated according to his rank and not as bad as a prisoner can be, as long he complies.

Tied Edmure getting a speech about Jaime's love for Cersei doesn't really do any of that, and I think it's the reason Edmure immediately surrendering Riverrun look out of character (except if it's just out of hate for evil!stupid!Brynden).

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I hate BFish in show and books for caring so much about a stupid pile of rocks.  But he's far MORE of an asshole in the show because due to Briennes message from Sansa he actually had a viable alternative. He could be helping in saving the world instead of pointlessly allowing his men and Lannister/Frey men to kill each other.  Fuck him.  Bravo Edmure and Jaime.  

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Is his plan not what Brienne suggested? Leading the Tully army north to help Sansa?

I can see Episode 9 going something along the lines of "battle goes ill and looks like all is lost for Sansa + Jon, when all of a sudden Tully reinforcements appear over a rise and rout the Boltons"

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3 minutes ago, TheShadow said:

Is his plan not what Brienne suggested? Leading the Tully army north to help Sansa?

I can see Episode 9 going something along the lines of "battle goes ill and looks like all is lost for Sansa + Jon, when all of a sudden Tully reinforcements appear over a rise and rout the Boltons"

Plan was that Jaime would allow the Tully forces to leave with BFish if Brienne got him to surrender by nightfall.  Jaime realizes that she has failed to do this because the castle hadn't surrendered by morning.  Brienne warned him that if the plan failed and Jaime attacked the castle instead, she would be compelled to help BFish defend Riverrun.  The only other option would be a 2 year seige which Jaime is definitely not up for.  

So, In order to avoid having to fight Brienne, he took a third option - going to Edmure to negotiate the surrender of the castle.  Edmure only agrees because Jaime makes him believe he's a complete monster who would catapult a baby (not hard given his reputation).  Edmure orders the Tully men to disarm and turn themselves over to the Freys.  Jaime can't send the Tully forces anywhere at this point and in any case why would they go?  None of them are related to Sansa.  I do think that if Brienne had been captured, Jaime would have found a way to let her go back north.  

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3 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Plan was that Jaime would allow the Tully forces to leave with BFish if Brienne got him to surrender by nightfall.  Jaime realizes that she has failed to do this because the castle hadn't surrendered by morning.  Brienne warned him that if the plan failed and Jaime attacked the castle instead, she would be compelled to help BFish defend Riverrun.  The only other option would be a 2 year seige which Jaime is definitely not up for.  

So, In order to avoid having to fight Brienne, he took a third option - going to Edmure to negotiate the surrender of the castle.  Edmure only agrees because Jaime makes him believe he's a complete monster who would catapult a baby (not hard given his reputation).  Edmure orders the Tully men to disarm and turn themselves over to the Freys.  Jaime can't send the Tully forces anywhere at this point and in any case why would they go?  None of them are related to Sansa.  I do think that if Brienne had been captured, Jaime would have found a way to let her go back north.  

Have the Tullys been handed over? I misinterpreted that in the episode if so. I merely thought they'd relinquished the castle but were otherwise "free". They wanted the castle, not the men inside after all. Though I suppose it hardly makes sense just to let them wander off... They may still find a way to aid Sansa... An escape attempt maybe? Another Frey blunder?

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Even by the show's (lack of) time and space continuum standards having the Tully's show up at WF having travelled from RL when Sansa is a days march away seems a bit of a stretch.

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My feeling is that to not even talk to the BF to get a status report is ridiculous.  Jaimes offer to Brienne should have still stood, especially if Brienne is the 1 that claims it.

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On 15/06/2016 at 4:04 AM, Ser Goosey said:

So, Edmure exchanges his life as a Frey/Lannister captive outside RR for life as a Frey/Lannister captive inside RR? In the deal, he gives up his ancestral homeland in exchange for not killing a baby born of his marriage to a Frey?  I say, let the babe die; Edmure can presumably father more Tullys.  

But that is not putting family first. Even if you hate the bloodline of your firstborn legal son, Tully honour requires that the son's life is paramount.

Arya's plot jumped the shark - but I don't think Riverlands has yet. It's clumsy but it's not broken.

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1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

My feeling is that to not even talk to the BF to get a status report is ridiculous.  Jaimes offer to Brienne should have still stood, especially if Brienne is the 1 that claims it.

BF and Edmure both believe Jaime is a disgusting sack of shit - especially Edmure.  Theres no way Edmure would trust any "plan" that involved Jaime giving something up.  Especially not the Tully army.  Edmure simply would not believe the Kingslayer would honor such a promise.  Conversely he totally believes that The Kingslayer will murder his son and kill everyone in the castle if he doesn't surrender.  Can he be SURE that Jaime will let him and his son and his men live if they do?  Nope, but it's the only option he has and Jaime doesn't lose anything so it might be true - unlike the Brienne plan which only she believes he would follow through on. 

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18 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

BF and Edmure both believe Jaime is a disgusting sack of shit - especially Edmure.  Theres no way Edmure would trust any "plan" that involved Jaime giving something up.  Especially not the Tully army.  Edmure simply would not believe the Kingslayer would honor such a promise.  Conversely he totally believes that The Kingslayer will murder his son and kill everyone in the castle if he doesn't surrender.  Can he be SURE that Jaime will let him and his son and his men live if they do?  Nope, but it's the only option he has and Jaime doesn't lose anything so it might be true - unlike the Brienne plan which only she believes he would follow through on. 

I don't understand this at all.  You say Edmure shouldn't believe Jaime would honor his word to Brienne, even tho he lets her leave with a valyrian steal sword, but that he should believe Jaime would honor his word to his own prisoner?  That just doesn't make sense.  if Edmure believes Jaime will honor his word than it should apply to either situation, or if you only believe 1 of them then it should be Brienne, if he doesn't believe him there is no reason to surrender the castle.  Whether he believes him or not or feels he has no choice, it would still be reasonable to talk to people inside the castle before surrendering, Edmure didn't even know Brienne was there, and had no way of knowing what else he did not know.

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8 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I don't understand this at all.  You say Edmure shouldn't believe Jaime would honor his word to Brienne, even tho he lets her leave with a valyrian steal sword, but that he should believe Jaime would honor his word to his own prisoner?  That just doesn't make sense.  if Edmure believes Jaime will honor his word than it should apply to either situation, or if you only believe 1 of them then it should be Brienne, if he doesn't believe him there is no reason to surrender the castle.  Whether he believes him or not or feels he has no choice, it would still be reasonable to talk to people inside the castle before surrendering, Edmure didn't even know Brienne was there, and had no way of knowing what else he did not know.

Edmure believes that Jaime is entirely self serving and ruthless.  He believes that whatever Jaime does  he will gain personally from it.  From this perspective it only makes sense to trust Jaime if the outcome is unequivocally good for Jaime.  

Jaime allowing the Tully men and Blackfish free so that they can go help Sansa Stark and probably eventually come marching back to Riverrun is the opposite of self serving ruthless person Edmure believes Jaime is.  If he somehow got the whole story from Brienne (or Blackfish) he would believe that Brienne was being duped (or was working with him) because, again, he believes that The Kingslayer would never do anything that did not personally benefit him.  There is no personal gain for Jaime allowing the Tully army to go free - there's some personal risk in fact.

Edmure, his son, and his men surviving as prisoners is much easier to believe coming from The Kingslayer.  He can ransom some of the highborn men for money.  He can gain influence over the son as he grows, and gain power that way.  Also with this plan the Lannister army remains unblooded which is also to the Kingslayers advantage.

there is every reason for Edmure to believe Jaime in one case and to doubt him just as much in the other.  Edmure is not the viewer or Brienne.

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2 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Edmure believes that Jaime is entirely self serving and ruthless.  He believes that whatever Jaime does  he will gain personally from it.  From this perspective it only makes sense to trust Jaime if the outcome is unequivocally good for Jaime.  

Jaime allowing the Tully men and Blackfish free so that they can go help Sansa Stark and probably eventually come marching back to Riverrun is the opposite of self serving ruthless person Edmure believes Jaime is.  If he somehow got the whole story from Brienne (or Blackfish) he would believe that Brienne was being duped (or was working with him) because, again, he believes that The Kingslayer would never do anything that did not personally benefit him.  There is no personal gain for Jaime allowing the Tully army to go free - there's some personal risk in fact.

Edmure, his son, and his men surviving as prisoners is much easier to believe coming from The Kingslayer.  He can ransom some of the highborn men for money.  He can gain influence over the son as he grows, and gain power that way.  Also with this plan the Lannister army remains unblooded which is also to the Kingslayers advantage.

there is every reason for Edmure to believe Jaime in one case and to doubt him just as much in the other.  Edmure is not the viewer or Brienne.

While I disagree with your statements, lets ignore them for a moment. Your still avoiding the main point of both my posts.  Edmure did not bother to talk to anyone to see what was going on.  How can that be prudent?  How can Edmure know what he does not know?  Even if he just gave an order for Brienne and Pod to be taken to the exit the BF takes them to, he is still doing what he can, even if he just gives the BF time to escape/hide like he does in the books he is still doing what he can.  By just surrendering immediately he does not even try/care to see if there is a better option open to him.  If he talked to his garrison commander/ the BF and came away thinking he would watch his son catapulted into the walls only to then watch all his men die, then that is something, but to not even check and say hey "how many men we got?  How long can we hold out?  Anything I should know?"  Is just ridiculous.

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12 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

While I disagree with your statements, lets ignore them for a moment. Your still avoiding the main point of both my posts.  Edmure did not bother to talk to anyone to see what was going on.  How can that be prudent?  How can Edmure know what he does not know?  Even if he just gave an order for Brienne and Pod to be taken to the exit the BF takes them to, he is still doing what he can, even if he just gives the BF time to escape/hide like he does in the books he is still doing what he can.  By just surrendering immediately he does not even try/care to see if there is a better option open to him.  If he talked to his garrison commander/ the BF and came away thinking he would watch his son catapulted into the walls only to then watch all his men die, then that is something, but to not even check and say hey "how many men we got?  How long can we hold out?  Anything I should know?"  Is just ridiculous.

Because if he does anything except exactly what he agreed with the Kingslayer to do (which is to surrender the castle), he believes that the Kingslayer will murder his son and (eventually) everyone in the castle.  

Frome Edmures perspective anything anyone might say is irrelevant given these facts. 

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On 2016-06-13 at 11:30 AM, Special Snowflake said:

This. Why change that? I can empatize with Edmure with trying to save his child, but not helping Blackfish... It is more or less the same from the books but why not keep something that didn't have to be changed? It's one last in your face to Lannisters. Maybe he is a prisoner and has to play by other people rules, but letting his uncle go is one last ounce of resistance he could give them. Anyways I like bookEdmure better, so show is a show, and books are books:rolleyes:

The reason for Edmure's hostility is that Blackfish stood on the wall and told the Freys, go ahead, slit Edmure's throat.

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