Jaime's character arc

[Kiwi]

Am I seriously the only person who got the impression that there was absolutely NOTHING wrong about what Jaime did?

He did not hurt any child. He did not even mean it when he said he would.

He said all of this to get precisely the outcome that he received. He was bluffing and using his reputation to convince Edmure to give up the castle.

[Long Live The Onion King]

22 hours ago, Rumy Stark said:

Yeah Jaime in this ep was really jarring, to be honest. It seemed like in his convo with Brienne that he was still on that arc towards redeemed Jaime, and he really didn't want to shed any blood and would have let the army through because all he cared about was following the order to return Riverrun to the Freys. But then his convo with Edmure was right back to crazy Jaime who doesn't care about anything except Cersei, which at this point is just annoying. I don't know. Maybe we're supposed to assume that his entire strategy of taking Riverrun back with basically no bloodshed was a sign of his growth???? (Even though he even admits that it's just because it'll be faster than a siege). 

Either way it looks like he'll be back in time for the trial. Maybe he'll finally find out about Lancel, but I agree with everyone on here that this wouldn't drive him to murder Cersei. I'm 100% on the "Jaime kills Cersei to save the city from wildfire" train. 

Although Bran's vision shows the wildfire going off, so.... maybe not?

Anyway, the point is that I agree that his character arc is confusing and unsatisfying. 

Yep. In his scene with Edmure he was back to the Jaime who would push a kid out a window.

[Greggles]

In defence of Jaime Lannister and his character arc:

You're all missing the point: Jaime is out to capture Riverrun without loss of life to maintain his honour. (I'm not sure if it's in the show, but in the novels Catelyn made him swear -drunk, in chains and at swordpoint- not to take up arms against the Tully's or Starks)

In all his interractions with the Tully's they reminded him of his Kingslayer moniker and that his honour was 'shit'

So:

That made any threat Jaime made credible and believable, catapult a young bride, child and father into the river?  Believable to anyone who isn't aware of how he's changed, namely Edmure Tully.

His interractions with the Teleporting Lady Brienne were there to remind the audience that yes, he has indeed changed.

[WSmith84]

21 minutes ago, Greggles said:

In defence of Jaime Lannister and his character arc:

You're all missing the point: Jaime is out to capture Riverrun without loss of life to maintain his honour. (I'm not sure if it's in the show, but in the novels Catelyn made him swear -drunk, in chains and at swordpoint- not to take up arms against the Tully's or Starks)

In all his interractions with the Tully's they reminded him of his Kingslayer moniker and that his honour was 'shit'

So:

That made any threat Jaime made credible and believable, catapult a young bride, child and father into the river?  Believable to anyone who isn't aware of how he's changed, namely Edmure Tully.
 

The problem is that the show has dropped any kind of attempt to show us that Jaime is attempting to reclaim some kind of honour. His continued devotion to Cersei is exact opposite of that. How is one supposed to understand that Jaime's threat was framed as such so as to avoid bloodshed if they haven't read the books? Because I never would have gotten that from the show.

Season 3 was the only season where Jaime had real development. Since the start of season 4, he's been static and, worse than that, jarringly inconsistent.

I don't care if the show wants to give him a different character arc, but at least bloody give him one.

[Net-Viper X]

I agree. He knew that due to his bad rep any despicable threats he made would be believed, so he told Brutus the most despicable thing he could think of in order to get him to open the gates. I wonder what happened to the Riverlands soldiers though, did Jaime actually spare them and let them go like he promised?

[Greggles]

13 minutes ago, Net-Viper X said:

I agree. He knew that due to his bad rep any despicable threats he made would be believed, so he told Brutus the most despicable thing he could think of in order to get him to open the gates. I wonder what happened to the Riverlands soldiers though, did Jaime actually spare them and let them go like he promised?

 

There's nothing explicit.  We did see that the Tully forces were disarmed and the only death reported was The Blackfish's (damn!)

If there was a bloodbath I'm sure something would have been mentioned.  One thing we need to remember is that this is a Lannister army, not a Bolton army.  They rarely do anything gratuitous, excepting the Sack of Kingslanding during Roberts Rebellion.

[Jaime4Brienne]

5 hours ago, Kiwi said:

Am I seriously the only person who got the impression that there was absolutely NOTHING wrong about what Jaime did?

He did not hurt any child. He did not even mean it when he said he would.

He said all of this to get precisely the outcome that he received. He was bluffing and using his reputation to convince Edmure to give up the castle.

But I really think he would have done if it came down to it. He can't say he's going to do something and then not do it. 

[Greggles]

24 minutes ago, Jaime4Brienne said:

But I really think he would have done if it came down to it. He can't say he's going to do something and then not do it. 

And in the previous episode he did give an object lesson to the Freys about empty threats.  Of course, he could have been play acting for Edmures benefit (don't you want to hit Frey's?) knowing that he'd have to make believable threats later on.

One arc that has lasted throughout the series (books too) is the Redemption of Ser Jaime Lannister.  And I think his behavior in these last two episodes highlights the tricky path he has to navigate.

[House Cambodia]

5 hours ago, Net-Viper X said:

I wonder what happened to the Riverlands soldiers though, did Jaime actually spare them and let them go like he promised?

We'll find out next week. The deal was presumably have them march up to Winterfell to help Jon. Not sure if Jaime still considers Ramsay Bolton to be a Lannister enemy.

[Tchzaelous]

Jaime doesn't have a character arc, it's more of a character boomerang.

[TheKitttenGuard]

5 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

We'll find out next week. The deal was presumably have them march up to Winterfell to help Jon. Not sure if Jaime still considers Ramsay Bolton to be a Lannister enemy.

That would of been deal if the Black Fish agreed to Brienne's terms to surrender.

 

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

That would of been deal if the Black Fish agreed to Brienne's terms to surrender.

 

I know. Jaime's agreed to those conditions with Brienne, so there is a small chance he will honour that.

[HellasLEAF]

Jamie has definitely become one of the most fascinating characters for me.  

As I said in the rating thread, there is honor in Jamie and his character arc with Brienne, it's almost like two different people the way he still has this attachment to Cersei.

That doesn't feel like Jamie anymore.  

In fact, I think now Jamie would make a great ruler.  Better than Tommen that's for sure. 

[TheKitttenGuard]

1 minute ago, House Cambodia said:

I know. Jaime's agreed to those conditions with Brienne, so there is a small chance he will honour that.

The Starks are still the enemy and I do not see Jaime will want to send aid for someone who is suspected of Regicide in the murder of your child.

Jaime did something very honorable in allowing a swornsword of this person to ask for that aid.  

[RedShirt47]

The way I see Jaime's arc is that when away from Cersei (and especially around Brienne) he can make progress. He did so in seasons two and three.
But when in the presence of Cersei he regresses to his old ways. Who says a redemption arc can only go one way? Someone can falter or regress on their way to redemption.

I don't think Jaime has fully regressed to S1E1 Jaime but he has regressed back some way. If something were to keep him away from King's Landing for some time I think he would make progress again. It makes some sense that when around Cersei (the object of his obsession) thathe would regress somewhat. Many drug addicts relapse, especially when presented with their drug of choice. Temptation is a strong force and addicts are most susceptible to it.

I think Jaime is aware of his reputation and is using it when dealing with Edmure and the Blackfish. He knows his threats will be treated more seriously than most folk due to his reputation This doesn't make that Jaime will carry out his threats. I believe he is better than he was when he threw Bran out the window (if not entirely honourable yet).

[ginny11]

On 6/13/2016 at 5:58 PM, Dog92 said:

I don't think that all the change of his character has been undone. He is actually a ''better person'' and he doesn't want to kill the Tullys just because they are his enemies. He would prefer them to surrender so no blood would be spilled, to avoid unnecessary deads.
But he also still loves Cercei like always. He tried to be good to Edmure and show him his respect but Edmure only sees him as the Kingslayer like the Blackfish, a man who has no honour and cannot be trusted. Jaime understood that and that's why he changed in the middle of the conversation and showed Edmure the KIngslayer. Edmure doesn't trust ''good'' Jaime but he trusts the Kingslayer. To come to a conclusion and end the siege Jaime had to talk like the Kingslayer and scare Edmure because nothing else would work.

Sry for my grammar but i am no native english speaker.

THIS!!!! I was about to write a comment saying essentially the same thing! Jaime listened to what edmure said to him,  how can he live with himself, and then he realized edmure thinks he's a monster so he acted like that monster and gambled that edmure would want to save his innocent baby. 

[ginny11]

On 6/13/2016 at 6:56 PM, grufolo said:

" The things we do for love"
Maybe had a different meaning here than it had in the first episode, years ago.

Maybe all he did here, while talking of Cersei, was not about Cersei at all. He Sends Edmure in becaus he knows that's the only way to avoid fighting Brienne and risking to kill her. He tells Edmure something he desn't understand: I'm doing this bold move, this risky move, because of love.

But it's not the love for Cersei, but the one for Bienne, who would likely be killed in an assault.

It's not by chance that he goes to Edmure in the night after he can guess that Brienne has failed to convince the blackfish.

Absolutely agree 100%.

[Apathetic Onlooker]

On 6/13/2016 at 8:48 AM, Good Guy Garlan said:

Jaime's what now?

I think the thread creator is wondering if Jaime will develop a back condition.  Or a boat.  I know not what other kind of arc Jaime could possibly acquire.  Maybe the ability to throw a curve ball with his left hand?  

[Sigrid]

On 6/13/2016 at 8:05 AM, Melisandre's Rubies said:

This is a perfect example of why I end up so disappointed with the show. It's not because they are changing things from the book per se, it's because they can't seem to stay consistent to their own storyline. They introduce an arc, or character development, then toss it away when it doesn't fit what they want to do next, and then occasionally throw it back into play later with little to no actual "arc" to it. We spent more time watching Jaime's world shatter than we have on several other characters traumatic experiences, both the many rapes but also Jon's resurrection, and then it all just magically disappears and leaves us wondering if all that storyline will eventually mean something. 

In this episode you also have a cocky, self assured Jaime who is threatening everyone, his oaths forgotten but it also seems that his loss of fighting skills have disappeared as well. Did those 2-3 training sessions with Bronn suddenly undo the loss of his sword hand? My husband isn't a reader and he kept saying "I don't understand what they are doing? What happened to ______? This doesn't make any sense." I have no answers, because they haven't stuck to the original storyline but they also haven't stayed consistent with their own story or characters. 

Exactly this.  I have no problem grasping the idea that the show is a different medium and that things can be changed for adaptation, but sometimes they changes for the adaptation make no sense.  Or they'll take a sharp turn away from the books only to go back again only now without all of the supporting backstory.  

I think it's interesting to compare Jaimie and Cersei adaptation treatment.  Her character has also been adapted quite differently (no real slide into raging drinking, paranoia, etc.)  I felt she became even more unlikable over the course of AFFC as you realized that she really isn't cunning or clever, she is mean-spirited, paranoid, and short-sighted.  You spend all this time thinking she's a great player of the game before you get in her head and realize her success is largely luck and having smarter people to keep her on the leash.  They've made show Cersei down right sympathetic at this point.  She really does have some intelligence and self awareness.  I say all that because even though I think her character has changed drastically, it doesn't effect the show too much or her overall arc I don't think.

Jaimie's story was the exact opposite.  He's a horrible person and then you get inside his head and realize he is capable of self-reflection, of true heroics.  You find out that he's more than just a pretty face and a good swordsman, he actually has administrative capabilities and intelligence.  Without any of this his show iteration is pretty worthless.

[Sigrid]

On 6/13/2016 at 4:58 PM, Dog92 said:

I don't think that all the change of his character has been undone. He is actually a ''better person'' and he doesn't want to kill the Tullys just because they are his enemies. He would prefer them to surrender so no blood would be spilled, to avoid unnecessary deads.
But he also still loves Cercei like always. He tried to be good to Edmure and show him his respect but Edmure only sees him as the Kingslayer like the Blackfish, a man who has no honour and cannot be trusted. Jaime understood that and that's why he changed in the middle of the conversation and showed Edmure the KIngslayer. Edmure doesn't trust ''good'' Jaime but he trusts the Kingslayer. To come to a conclusion and end the siege Jaime had to talk like the Kingslayer and scare Edmure because nothing else would work.

Sry for my grammar but i am no native english speaker.

I didn't catch his change in demeanor.  That is an interesting interpretation.  It does express the idea that he has battling within him his authentic self and what people expect him to be.