Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Krakenface

Jaime's character arc

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

I'm sorry but he tried to murder a child.  There is no redemption, just like there is no redemption for Theon who murdered 2 children.  Jaime is a villain.  Edmure nailed it last night.  

Do you recognize that the whole purpose of a redemption arc is to atone for an awful act in the past? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really wish we would have gotten to see Jaime spurn Cersei as he does in the books.  That was the moment in the show where I realized his arc was going somewhere I did not like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JMJ said:

Whatever we all think about Jaime's arc, it's (a) nothing like what's going on in the books, and (b) he is clearly heading for some big head. I think he will arrive back at KL with Cersei in the middle of lighting the city on fire with wildfire, making the decision to reprise his Aerys move and kill her before she does any more damage. Either way, he's turned out much less compelling than in the books.

Well that's true (about him being less compelling) but Coster-Waldau is pretty hot so it all equals out. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Yup, but he'll hold her in his arms and perish with her. His work is done.

I don't really know if I agree with his work being done. Jaime is still one of the great warriors and war commanders in Westeros and should be able to play a role in the Great War. I'd rather have Jaime heading House Lannisters forces than any of our other options. Especially our book options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

" The things we do for love"
Maybe had a different meaning here than it had in the first episode, years ago.

Maybe all he did here, while talking of Cersei, was not about Cersei at all. He Sends Edmure in becaus he knows that's the only way to avoid fighting Brienne and risking to kill her. He tells Edmure something he desn't understand: I'm doing this bold move, this risky move, because of love.

But it's not the love for Cersei, but the one for Bienne, who would likely be killed in an assault.

It's not by chance that he goes to Edmure in the night after he can guess that Brienne has failed to convince the blackfish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Complaints on this forum

"i liked sensitive, kind Jamie when he was talking to Brienne. The Jamie who promised his word to grant safe passage to the Tully army if they headed north and who let Brienne keep the sword. The Jamie that Brienne possibly loves. Jame is redeemed.

But I hate nasty Jamie. The one threatening Edmure that he'll throw his baby over the wall. The one professing his undying incestuous love for his horrible sister. I hate this Jamie. His redemption arc is ruined.

Can we please get some cookie cutter characters. Preferably with Good or Evil logos on their heads. All this grey area and complex subtle characterization is just too much!!"

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad someone mentioned the "things you do for love" line. I feel like that is a reminder to the audience that this, now likable, character pushed a child out of a window and started this whole thing.

His angry conversation with Edmure... I didn't find it out of character. He had to play hard in front of his prisoner.

I definitely believe Jaime will be the younger brother to kill Cersei, as prophesied. I thought that as soon as I read the prophesy, because there has to be a twist. I also believe he will die during or shortly after. He is a tragic character. He's been misunderstood, taken advantage of, and he's done horrible things. His redemption will be in putting an end to Cersei's madness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Masha said:

While I think Jaime's turnaround towards Cersei will be quick, I don't think it will be because of her infidelities. Its just too small for him to just turn around because she slept with everyone. 

I think it will be because he witnesses her wildfire actions. And it will be more poignant and dramatic, because he will be like - I forswore my oaths and my honor to save this city and my own sister/soul mate/one only actually does it, combine with some PTSD (from KL fall/Aerys death) and he will kill Cersei.

I hope that you're right, that would be much greater cause for Jaime to give up on Cersei. In the books he knew about her infidelities and it was just one of his many gnawing doubts about her that slowly leads him to the realisation that she's poison and he doesn't want her.

I just have zero faith in the show. I think Jaime will be utterly stunned (despite the walk being about Cersei sleeping with Lancel) and hurt and then she'll be awful when he confronts her and that will be it. I really want to be wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm in the camp that thinks he's the valonquar.  It's easy to assume in the books, but since he's still Team Cersei in the show, I think they're skipping his book arc to make the valonquar story line more shocking to the viewer.  At least I HOPE that's why they butchered his character arc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think he's the valonquar too. Tyrion is too obvious and going the 'anyone who is a little brother/younger brother figure' route is too broad. We were given a hint by the text telling us Cersei was born with Jaime clutching her heel and that's enough. I also think there will probably be a Mad King parallel where Jaime has to take Cersei out. He's too tragic a character to actually survive.

I was actually happy to see the trebuchet threat from the books. In the books we know Jaime was just using his awful reputation to his advantage when he realised Edmure wouldn't play ball, but in the show it's hard to tell if he was serious. I think they meant for us to know it was an idle threat. I like it when Jaime plays to type like that, it's a reminder of the awful person he was and the tragic reason people started hating him in the first place (arguably what created the slippery slope he went down to become the man who pushes Bran from the tower).

People often forget that if Robert had found out about Jaime and Cersei he'd have likely killed the kids and possibly Cersei as well. Ned certainly thinks that's how he would react and he seems to have the measure of Robert better than anyone. Robert was pretty awful. So I can understand Jaime feeling like he had to cover it up to keep Cersei and the kids alive, but it's the flippant way he does it (even if he was just using his cockiness to offset his guilt) that's truly horrific. I didn't mind the call back. Jaime is amazing precisely because he fell so far and is trying to claw his way back up. We know he did disgusting things, but we also see him want to tip the scales so he ends his life having done more good than evil. It's very compelling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, wolverine said:

I really wish we would have gotten to see Jaime spurn Cersei as he does in the books.  That was the moment in the show where I realized his arc was going somewhere I did not like.

If you subscribe to the theory that Jaime is valonqar, like I do, then him not spurning Cersei makes perfect sense. 

I imagine it going something like this:

 

Spoiler

Cersei is already on the downward slope in King's Landing. She's lost power, and now she's lost her trial by combat. 

Her prophecy still states that Tommen has to die. 

Cersei will make one last play to try and get out of her predicament (release The Mountain?)

In the chaos that ensues, Margaery escapes King's Landing with Loras. 

Tommen, heartbroken at Margeary leaving, kills himself. 

Cersei, realizing all her children are dead, goes mad. 

Cersei / Qyburn 's "little rumors" are about Aerys' wildfyre stores still hidden across the city. 

Cersei tries to use wildfire to blow up the capital

Jaime returns to King's Landing, realizes that Cersei has lost her mind. 

Jaime, tragically, kills Cersei in order to save the city, again, from madness. 

I think it's far more impactful to have heartbroken love Jaime do the final deed, rather than spiteful angry Jaime. I also think heartbroken Jaime doing the deed is what would, in many people's eyes, complete his redemption arc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, darndes said:

I'm in the camp that thinks he's the valonquar.  It's easy to assume in the books, but since he's still Team Cersei in the show, I think they're skipping his book arc to make the valonquar story line more shocking to the viewer.  At least I HOPE that's why they butchered his character arc.

Yes. For me that whole speech to Edmund about doing anything to rush back to Cercei's side is ridiculous UNLESS it's foreshadowing what he does when he gets there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Jaime's character on the show is that stupid. He will get his redemption arc. 

The show is setting things up for Jaime to find out, despite his undying loyalty towards his sister/lover, that she has been fooling him for years and that she is actually going to burn the city to the ground (and probably kill Tommen in the process) because she is power hungry, vain and stupid. 

Jaime is painting Cersei as this fierce lioness who would do everything to protect her children. Yet, in the same episode, we see that Tommen is basically betraying his own mother, while Cersei and Qyburn decide, as a result, to carry out their "plan". 

*IF* the end game for Jaime and Cersei is for Jaime to be the valonqar and to choke her to death then to die with her (as they both have "prophesied"), then the show's arc makes sense. Jaime will be shattered by Cersei's behavior but he will still love her from the bottom of his heart and this could justify him dying with her. If this end game is the same for books Jaime, it will be a bit more difficult, in my opinion, for the readers to understand Jaime's reaction: books Jaime has forsaken Cersei and I could see him killing her out of rage and hate. But if it's the case, why would he decide to die with her, unless he changes his mind last minute and realize he will always love Cersei no matter what and he'd rather die with her? 

It's probable the show is just giving us a watered down and less conflicted version of Jaime and Cersei's arcs and, for that purpose, they needed Jaime to remain loyal to Cersei until the very end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, wolverine said:

I really wish we would have gotten to see Jaime spurn Cersei as he does in the books.  That was the moment in the show where I realized his arc was going somewhere I did not like.

Harrenhal.

That was the point of no return for Jaime. 

 

Harrenhal.

 

He could have moved on, fast enough so as to arrive in KL just in time to attend Joffrey's wedding, at the side of his beloved sister.

He chose not to.

 

He chose to return to Harrenhal and save that big, ugly woman from Vargo Hoat and the Bloody Mummers.

Brienne's rescue had a price: Joffrey died, Cersei is grief striken, Tyrion is found guilty and Tywin wants Jaime to marry Margaery and raise Tommen.

 

In the tv series the rescue, which was a conscious choice on Jaime's part, had no price whatsoever.

 

He reunited with his beloved sister, prevented Brienne from becoming bearfood, cheered whenever it seemed that Oberyn was going to defeat Gregor and had a lovely chat with Tyrion in his cell, about cousin Orson Lannister. Love is all around and all that jazz.

 

D&D completely disregarded Jaime's emotional development which takes place in FFC and DWD, ignored his gradual disenchantment towards his sister and his attempt to balance his duty as a knight and his duty as a Lannister.

Afterall there is a reason why GRRM gave Jaime Honour and Glory, his two horses.

 

On 13/6/2016 at 10:58 AM, Krakenface said:

I know a lot of people, particularly the book readers, are disappointed with the way that Jaime's arc has been treated in the show. Last night's episode was case in point - all the development he had earlier on, losing a hand, etc. seems to have been undone and he's back to being obsessively in love with Cersei, willing to cut down anyone in his path and so on. 

Though I was at first pretty annoyed with the way his arc was treated in episode 8, I think D&D could possibly be setting him up for a redemption arc despite this. Perhaps, him seeing Brienne again as well as being away from KL reminding him of his "honour" or whatever. I mean, he didn't slaughter masses of Tully forces, he seemed pretty distraught at the Blackfish's death (he admired him a lot, I guess), and he allowed Bri and Pod to escape. 

Perhaps all is not lost? What are your thoughts? Will he return to KL this season? Discuss. 

Nothing is lost.

In season 3 we see Sansa kneeling during the wedding ceremony with Tyrion.

In the books she choses not to, as a result Tyrion is further ridiculed. Her act is subtle but rich in symbolism, just like Renly's peach. And of course in the tv series we saw none of it.

Still there are some abrupt changes in Sansa's development and occassionally there are a few glimpses of bookSansa.

In the tv series Jaime has been replaced by Cersei's dream version of Jaime, her brother who never, ever questions her and is her devoted slave.

The Jaime we see in tv is the Jaime that Cersei sees in the books.

It was unfortunate to have Jaime to be as attached to her as he was in S1. The repetition of "the things I do for love" indicates that the writers do not care for any consistency.

 

I think that he is the valonqar and the theory that he will kill Cersei  because she will attempt to burn the city/kill Tommen, is plausible. 

 

Quote

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. "He was going to burn the city," Jaime said. "To leave Robert only ashes."

In FFC, during the destruction of the Tower of the Hand, Jaime is wary of Cersei's resemblance to Aerys. It has been suggested as a foreshadowing of Cersei becoming the new Aerys.

 

Quote

She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said. The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him.

 

Perhaps afterwards he will join Brienne?

His redemption arc in the books is certainly associated with LS. Her exclusion from the tv series means that his motives as a character are diminished.

In episode 10, we will likely have Jaime looking shocked as Lancel testifies against Cersei and admits having sex with her. It will be the tv version of lancel and osmund kettleblack and moonboy for all i know.

Or Varys might appear out of nowhere and reveal Cersei's infidelity.

In any case it will be a simplified version of Jaime's gradual resentment towards his sister. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to remind some of you that Jaime didn't kill the Mad King to "save the city from burning". He did it because he was ordered to bring the head of Tywin Lannister, his father. Obvious choice. I don't think he could kill Cercei (who he loves more than his late dad) just "to save the city from wildfire". King's Landing isn't dear to him. More likely he'd just "meh" on burning city and go to the Casterly Rock to play a lord.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just think Jamies arc is stretched out and is simply different to the books. I think his disenchantment with Cercei will be more sudden and angry than the books, the show is clearly setting up for something to happen between them, otherwise they wouldn't be establishing his feelings for her so strongly right now. 

My opinion is that Cercei is going to burn down KL and kill Tommen. An event like this will probably be too much for Jamie and he will disconnect from her (if she's still alive that is)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I just think Jamies arc is stretched out and is simply different to the books. I think his disenchantment with Cercei will be more sudden and angry than the books, the show is clearly setting up for something to happen between them, otherwise they wouldn't be establishing his feelings for her so strongly right now. 

My opinion is that Cercei is going to burn down KL and kill Tommen. An event like this will probably be too much for Jamie and he will disconnect from her (if she's still alive that is)

Yes this. Ive been thinking about this lately and I agree with you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kaaposc said:

I'd like to remind some of you that Jaime didn't kill the Mad King to "save the city from burning". He did it because he was ordered to bring the head of Tywin Lannister, his father. Obvious choice.

No, he did it to save his own butt. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Jaime's "character arc" is one of the better ones, although I am a TV viewer as opposed to a book reader.

Particularly in the latest episode, he reveals his true feelings to the world (Edmure) regarding Cersei, and his true motivation behind everything he does.

I do think he does have two sides to him which are mirrored in 1, when he is with Cersei, and 2, when he is with Brienne.

He only shows weaknesses, in different ways, when in the presence (or following orders from) of either of the two. This will only develop more from this point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×