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Jaime's character arc

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On 6/13/2016 at 11:13 AM, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

I'm sorry but he tried to murder a child.  There is no redemption, just like there is no redemption for Theon who murdered 2 children.  Jaime is a villain.  Edmure nailed it last night.  

I always thought there was no way I would ever feel sorry for Jaimie or Theon, but I know that I did.  Just agree to disagree.

I know from a reader's perspective that while Jaimie is individually accountable for what he did to Bran it is a symptom of the twisted relationship with his sister.  If I remember right she wanted him to deal with it and wasn't too upset about the kid being pushed out the window.   The further away he gets from Cersei physically and emotionally the more likable he becomes.

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19 hours ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

That would of been deal if the Black Fish agreed to Brienne's terms to surrender.

 

 

17 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I know. Jaime's agreed to those conditions with Brienne, so there is a small chance he will honour that.

This was not the impression that I got at all, that Jaimie was saying "ok, well if you fail to convince the Blackfish I'll still send the Tullys along when I take the castle".  Even if he were, they're not going to do much good with no weapons.

On its face the show seemed to say, "ok, I took the castle.  Don't really care what happens to any of these people I'm gonna haul ass back to King's Landing"

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Honestly they've been so jumpy with Jaime's story arc, following the book, then not following the book, then kinda following it again. As other posters have mentioned it isn't even an issue with following the book, its about staying consistent to their own narrative structure. And they've totally failed at that. Some people have argued that this is character development, and that he's  clearly wrestling with two sides of himself. I disagree. There's a limit to theorising on character motivations, eventually you get to your limit. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc. If Jaime feels and looks like a poorly plotted deeply confusing character who seems to change motivations with every conversation he has then it is poor writing. Plain and simple. 

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4 hours ago, Sigrid said:

 

This was not the impression that I got at all, that Jaimie was saying "ok, well if you fail to convince the Blackfish I'll still send the Tullys along when I take the castle".  Even if he were, they're not going to do much good with no weapons.

On its face the show seemed to say, "ok, I took the castle.  Don't really care what happens to any of these people I'm gonna haul ass back to King's Landing"

I did say it was a 'small chance'. I agree with the poster above - the show writing is so poor it's impossible to know what they'll pull out of the hat next. My main reasoning is not via Jaime's character, but rather the basic observation that Jon needs more troops to give this Battle of the Bastards a semblance of credibility.

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The show has a habit of rubbing its arsecheeks on many characters. The end result resembles a character you know - perhaps even love - from the books, but they're covered in shit and in the end the only way you recognize them is 'cause they share a name.

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13 hours ago, Sigrid said:

Exactly this.  I have no problem grasping the idea that the show is a different medium and that things can be changed for adaptation, but sometimes they changes for the adaptation make no sense.  Or they'll take a sharp turn away from the books only to go back again only now without all of the supporting backstory.  

I think it's interesting to compare Jaimie and Cersei adaptation treatment.  Her character has also been adapted quite differently (no real slide into raging drinking, paranoia, etc.)  I felt she became even more unlikable over the course of AFFC as you realized that she really isn't cunning or clever, she is mean-spirited, paranoid, and short-sighted.  You spend all this time thinking she's a great player of the game before you get in her head and realize her success is largely luck and having smarter people to keep her on the leash.  They've made show Cersei down right sympathetic at this point.  She really does have some intelligence and self awareness.  I say all that because even though I think her character has changed drastically, it doesn't effect the show too much or her overall arc I don't think.

Jaimie's story was the exact opposite.  He's a horrible person and then you get inside his head and realize he is capable of self-reflection, of true heroics.  You find out that he's more than just a pretty face and a good swordsman, he actually has administrative capabilities and intelligence.  Without any of this his show iteration is pretty worthless.

I agree wholeheartedly. They have completely taken out any character depth and seem to be going for a comic book version of bad guy vs good guy, with no greys what's so ever. While I realize that there is a limit to how much they can do with internal dialogue, they have abandoned playing it out in anyway, shape or form.
Last season with Cersei, we began to see her slip into her binge drinking and not caring whatsoever about what Tommen was doing and lack of any planning or cunning but now this season they have reverted her back to the initial "I'll do anything to protect my child", talking and concocting what at least should have been a good plan, only to have it undone because Tommen is completely malleable. Unfortunately, neither she, Jaime, or Kevan have had any ability or even plan to really use that to their advantage. In her conversations with Jaime, there was ample opportunity for her to show her growing paranoia, her vengeful side, her purely emotional reactionary character. Instead she took the news of Myrcella's death calmly, switched her us against the world view to Jaime instead, and made her the rational one. 

They have given Jaime so many opportunities in his conversations with Cersei, Brienne, and Edmure to allow him to verbally work through his internal thought process and it is a complete turnaround from what they began to establish over the past few seasons. The show has essentially completely flipped their characters and motivations, not just from the book but from the show's own portrayal of these characters. 
 

12 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Honestly they've been so jumpy with Jaime's story arc, following the book, then not following the book, then kinda following it again. As other posters have mentioned it isn't even an issue with following the book, its about staying consistent to their own narrative structure. And they've totally failed at that. Some people have argued that this is character development, and that he's  clearly wrestling with two sides of himself. I disagree. There's a limit to theorising on character motivations, eventually you get to your limit. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc. If Jaime feels and looks like a poorly plotted deeply confusing character who seems to change motivations with every conversation he has then it is poor writing. Plain and simple. 

I feel like this was even more evident in Arya's arc this season. In season 1, she went through all this training with Syrio on how to rely on her other senses through using a blindfold, to mastering her balance and agility, to fighting skills. She displayed an inordinate amount of skill, after Ned was taken into custody, of how to blend in or become the person she needed to be to survive. She was wary of everyone and their motives. This season she suddenly lost all of those skills that Syrio taught her, becoming clumsy and awkward with no discernible fighting skills, unable to rely on any other senses, not even attempting to survive while she was blind. Then her unexplainable cockiness and strutting around Braavos drawing as much attention to herself as possible, yet still acting far less like any version of Arya we had met and more like Tyrion, who ironically  was one of the few people she hasn't even met. Suddenly at the very end of this episode though she miraculously regained all those lessons and skills to be able to dominate the waif in a fight. Her character development was completely butched until it was convenient for her to have them again. It also has baffled me why she didn't immediately lead the waif to her hiding place after the first attack. If she had already retrieved Needle, made her plans to become Arya again and go "home", why did she need to lose that again to extend the chase, fight, and make sure that we had to watch more of this play that at that point had no bearing on her? I can see that the original show allowed her to reconnect to herself and family, but that's been established and this part of the play had nothing to do with her and she wasn't even watching it. It was useless and seemed only to justify her losing herself once again. It's again poor writing in my opinion to have her character bounce back and forth from one extreme to the other with no real cause. 

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I think that TV Jaime may not be so far removed from book Jaime in so far as it's not GRRM's style to give us a smooth, unproblematic redemption arc.  Some posters  have pointed out that Jaime may be more manipulative than sincere in his speech to Edmure, capitalizing on his reputation for being ruthless and driven by family loyalty to end the siege with minimal loss of life (other than the Blackfish's, apparently). This is a possiblity, but I think this scene may be a simplified version of what we will see in the book. I predict that Jaime will have to confront his demons and will ultimately be unable to fully abandon Cersei. Something is likely to happen that will cause him to go running back.

I think it is quite clear that Brienne represents Jaime's conscience and his decision to give her his sword reflects the fact that he does not trust himself to act in good conscience. Much like the cartoonish devil whispering in one ear, while the angel protests in the other, Jaime cannot simply walk away from this inner struggle or the inexorable influence of Cersei. Indeed, it will be her continued hold on him that may ultimately drive him to be the valonqar, which will likely destroy him in the process. As Cersei told Ned in book 1, they are one person in two bodies. Thus, I believe that Jaime's arc will ultimately be redemptive, but also tragic. I agree with the poster who characterized his development as more like a boomerang than an arc. 

Twins often symbolize duplicity, the quality of being two-faced or posessing inconstancy (no disrespect intended to twins or gemini's out there). Cersei and Jaime are abetted in the early books by Janus Slint. The Roman god Janus is two-faced. I do not believe that Jaime has turned over a new leaf and will simply follow a path of  righteousness. His inner struggle and tortured attempts to exist as a separate entity from Cersei importantly show the potential for redemption, but I do not believe we can expect a happy future for this character without her.  

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The thing that this book series does better than any other I've read is create characters, introduce them to you by having them do absolutely despicable things, making you hate them, and then slowly showing you a sympathetic side of them, until you suddenly realize you like the character, not just a little bit, but actually a lot. 

The anti-hero is obviously the most common theme ever, but to take characters who've done the things that Jaime & Theon have done and turn around the readers perspective on them is a feat.

At first the show did a good job of trying to do the same thing with Jaime, and given the major disadvantage of not being able to show Jaime's inner thoughts to help change that perspective, it was actually pretty impressive.  But then he spent more time with Cersei than he was supposed to, and it has seemed to undo his arc.  I don't see it as an intentional change, more of a side effect of the fact that for TV they need to keep the stars interacting with each other.

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I really don't get people's strong negative reaction to Jaime in this season.

1. With Jaime, Cersei has been on her absolute best behavior all season.  She has given him exactly no reason to hate and resent her since he got back from Dorne.  Quite the opposite - she has given him a purpose and asked him to do several heroic things - and not a single evil one. As a result it is 100% realistic that he should still love her and want to help her.

2. Jaime would be a monster if he outright abandoned Tommen and Cersei at this point.  Tommen is a misguided innocent.  Cersei is his blood whatever else she might be and from what Jaime knows she appears to be reforming (see above).  I'd call him abandoning them to be outright dishonorable given the vows he has taken.  

3. The Edmure scene was almost identical to the book version.  We know from being in Jaimes head that the book version was bluffing and probably wouldn't have killed he child.  It's TV so they can't do it that explicitly but the acting from NIkolaj here I think showed quite clearly when he switched to "Kingslayer mode" just as he did in the book at the opportune time.  He relies on his reputation and infuses enough truth in there to make himself convincing.

4. It couldn't be more obvious from what we saw that show Jaime admires Brienne DEEPLY and a primary motivator for him in negotiating a peaceful surrender is that they don't have to come to blows.  He knows she'd kill him if they fought and it would utterly devastate her.  He doesn't want that for either of them.  I think he probably planned to smuggle her out if she'd been captured with the castle but her escape rendered that unnecessary.  

5. Without LSH the showrunners still wanted to capture some of the tension and complexity from Jaime and Briennes brief reunion from the book.  I think there is still a chance that Jaime will seek her and Sansa out after whatever happens with Cersei in KL.  I've never been a fan of the Jaime and Cersei die together theory and I don't think it will happen in book or show.  

6. Cersei fucking around was always, IMO, a weak reason for Jaime to abandon Tommen and Cersei. I'm glad they've gone a more subtle direction in the show.  

 

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23 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Honestly they've been so jumpy with Jaime's story arc, following the book, then not following the book, then kinda following it again. As other posters have mentioned it isn't even an issue with following the book, its about staying consistent to their own narrative structure. And they've totally failed at that. Some people have argued that this is character development, and that he's  clearly wrestling with two sides of himself. I disagree. There's a limit to theorising on character motivations, eventually you get to your limit. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc. If Jaime feels and looks like a poorly plotted deeply confusing character who seems to change motivations with every conversation he has then it is poor writing. Plain and simple. 

When was he inconsistent. Up to now we know that his main priority has been Cersie. It was when he was in KL. It was when Cersie forced him to leave. It was when he spoke to Edmure. Nothing changed on that front. We also know that there is some honor in him and we see that with Brienne.

So now he will go to KL and be forced to choose between that shred of honor and Cersie who will most likely be burning the place down.

It's really not confusing, like at all. It's the simplest thing in the show right now.

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3 hours ago, lancerman said:

When was he inconsistent. Up to now we know that his main priority has been Cersie. It was when he was in KL. It was when Cersie forced him to leave. It was when he spoke to Edmure. Nothing changed on that front. We also know that there is some honor in him and we see that with Brienne.

So now he will go to KL and be forced to choose between that shred of honor and Cersie who will most likely be burning the place down.

It's really not confusing, like at all. It's the simplest thing in the show right now.

Actually it's not quite that simple.  He has defied Cersei on several occasions so it's not a straightforward "Cersei slave" narrative to this point.

When Cersei asked Jaime to kill Tyrion, he called her a hateful person and subsequently released Tyrion.  When Cersei ordered him to find and kill Sansa Stark he instead gave Oathkeeper to Beienne and secretly tasked her with protecting Sansa and fulfilling his Oath to Catelyn.  

After that was done, Jaime then put his family first.  That's his duty as he sees it.  And Not Cersei only, but his whole family.  When the Dornish sent their threat Jaime insisted that he be the one to go because Myrcella is his daughter.  A Jaime who cares only for Cersei (rather than family in general) would have stayed and just sent someone to get her.

Then when he got back Jaime saw a change in Cersei - she seemed to be defeated by the WoS and Myrcellas death and really needed him.  Which is something anyone with a soul would respond to.  But nothing he's actually done subsequently indicates that he only cares about Cersei.  He's acted quite honorably in s 6. The worst thing was probably threatening Edmure but he did that so he wouldn't have to fight Brienne as much as so he could get the castle quickly.  And anyway Book Jaime did the same thing.

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imo Show Jaime is gradually understanding that 1-he loves an idea of Cersei, not the person; 2- Cersei´s love is less special than he believes, and is badly affected by his flaws and 3- Brienne´s love is more special than he believes, and is only highlighted by his flaws since it was born out of looking past all of them at once.

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