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spivo

Please explain Bravos ending (spoilers)

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9 hours ago, no_one_... said:

She never really did.  She was still just a child trying to figure out a life herself when her drives pulled her into a direction opposite society's expectations.  That was before the shit hit the fan and her family started dropping like flies.  She went on to recite a nightly hit list for years.  Something she's seemingly given up on since the FM forced her to stop lying to herself about the Hound and even find empathy for Cersei.  While she's always had a sense of justice she gained a sense of context and compassion along the way as well, eg telling the story to the sick girl to get her to drink from the poison well. 

I don't mean to imply should won't try to get justice for her family in Westeros, but that's different than the cold blooded vengeance streak she was on while w/the Hound.  Arguably, leaving the Hound in the state he was her low point in terms of losing her humanity as doing so the coldest things she'd ever done.

It's really the Waif resolution that left her arch feel anti-climatic, since for many found it to impossible to suspend disbelief that:

1. Arya was dumb enough to turn her back to anyone walking by on that bridge (even if you buy she was setting the Waif up)

and

2. a.she was able to recover from her gut wounds by a Lady

    b. who learned to treat stab wounds b/c she liked to stab her "badboys". 

I haven't seen anything to suggest that Arya won't continue on her vengeance fueled quest when she returns to Westeros. 

Don't forget - she butchered Meryn Trant *while* she was in Braavos. 

Agreed about the last 2 points you made. It just made no damn sense at all. 

Her 2 season arc has been a waste. She came as Arya Stark, and she leaves as Arya Stark. The only difference is she now knows how to fight in the dark? Pathetic

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6 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

I haven't seen anything to suggest that Arya won't continue on her vengeance fueled quest when she returns to Westeros. 

Don't forget - she butchered Meryn Trant *while* she was in Braavos. 

Agreed about the last 2 points you made. It just made no damn sense at all. 

Her 2 season arc has been a waste. She came as Arya Stark, and she leaves as Arya Stark. The only difference is she now knows how to fight in the dark? Pathetic

It was a standard identity crisis. Most of heroes have to go through that at some moment. She started to doubt herself, her values, even her list. She attempted to left her old self behind. She thought she is training to be no one but instead she´s been learning to accept herself, embrace who she is and be ready for her final quest. And it seems Jaqen ultimately knew that´s the case. He just had to wait till she realized that herself. That´s why he smiled at the end. He fulfilled his mission even if Aria thinks she failed.

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On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 11:44 AM, Nerevanin said:

Braavos is slowly becoming the next Dorne. It's beyond explaining and understanding.

this seems about right.

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5 hours ago, tws1978 said:

It was a standard identity crisis. Most of heroes have to go through that at some moment. She started to doubt herself, her values, even her list. She attempted to left her old self behind. She thought she is training to be no one but instead she´s been learning to accept herself, embrace who she is and be ready for her final quest. And it seems Jaqen ultimately knew that´s the case. He just had to wait till she realized that herself. That´s why he smiled at the end. He fulfilled his mission even if Aria thinks she failed.

I think you and I are seeing it very differently, which is fine. 

Personally - I didn't see an identity crisis at all. Arya was always Arya, and I think her planting Needle away rather than giving it up was the anchor in that thought process. 

She continued to keep her list. 

She continued to show emotion against The Waif. 

She spoke with sympathy when talking to Jaqen about Lady Crane. 

She chose not to kill Lady Crane. 

Those aren't things that someone suffering from an identity crisis do. Instead, those are things that someone who knows exactly who she is, but is instead just using the FM, does? 

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On 6/13/2016 at 2:21 PM, Rory Snow said:

Arya killed the Waif, not everything is a twist, sometimes things are exactly as they appear. Arya's move with the candle was straight out of Syrio's training.. no way the Waif could know that.

I agree.  Arya's use of the sword and defeating the waif wasn't because she had finally tapped into her awesome Faceless man power, it was reconnecting with her "Dancing Lessons" something that is essentially Arya.

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On 13.6.2016 at 10:57 AM, spivo said:

I didn't understand the ending...

Jaqen says she is now "No one", and she says she's Arya of Winterfell, and indicates she is of to help her family.

He smiles, like it is okay with him???

I did not understand any of it...

- Is he okay with her leaving the FM, with all the secrets they have?

- How can she be "No one", when she clearly still feels like a Stark?

- When someone has been "named", they have to die, so how can the Waif be a substitude for Arya?

 

Am I missing something? Does the FM have their own agenda, that does not need someone buying them?

The only thing I could think of, was that the Iron Bank, or someone else, has bought the FM to kill someone on Arya's list, so Jaqen knows she will still work for the FM going to Westeros???

 

She means she is not no one, she is Stark. (Its like she was no one and now a level up)

Smiling means, good you know who you are. (like Arya Stark level up can go now) and this also means I cannot stop you.

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On 6/13/2016 at 4:22 PM, Essan said:

Arya finished her training.   Not to become No-one.   But to become Some-one.   She had been hiding under various identities, before getting a ship to Braavos.    Finally she acknowledges who she truely is and where she belongs.    And that was the point of her story arc.

 

On 6/14/2016 at 4:13 AM, Mayura said:

Just adding that, although I think the events will unfold differently in the books, I think the outcome will be the same: Arya will end up leaving the FM. 

If you look at her entire storyline (books or show), from the moment Ned died, Arya pretended to be someone else (Arry, Nan, Squab, Weasel, Salty, Blind Beth, Mercy and the others I'm forgetting). Arya had lost her sense of self when she came to the FM, she thought she would be able to leave the pain of being who she is behind and to start over. But my take on it is that her entire Braavos arc is meant for her to find herself again and to reclaim her identity as "Arya Stark", after having tried to pretend she was "no one" or "someone else" for a long time.

I'm curious to see how this all unfolds in the books, but I was thinking that maybe the trick is that you can never actually become "no one". But rather, to be able to slip into someone else's face, you need to have a strong sense of self not to loose yourself in that other persona. 

I definitely agree that the whole point of the Faceless Men arc in both show and book is for Arya to decide who she really is.  Can she become anyone, or is she Arya Stark?

The problem I see with the show adaptation is that she pretty much sucked at trying to be no one.  It was no surprise that she went back to being Arya b/c she seemed incapable of being anything but.  

In the books she was very good at pretending to be someone else.  It's how she survived.  She even drew satisfaction from it.  She had no problems in her training (other than the cheat the show has ignored to pass her blindness training).  When we last see her, she is well on her way to becoming a very good Faceless Man.  The fact that I believe she will ultimately give all of that up to reclaim her true self means all the more because she really was successful at being "no one"

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On 13/6/2016 at 10:57 AM, spivo said:

I didn't understand the ending...

Jaqen says she is now "No one", and she says she's Arya of Winterfell, and indicates she is of to help her family.

He smiles, like it is okay with him???

I did not understand any of it...

Why are you surprised? She killed the other faceless woman (the only other, for what we may know). Hence she became No One, the training is over and she's completely free to go wherever she likes. Perfectly logical, isn't it?

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On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 4:57 AM, spivo said:

I didn't understand the ending...

Jaqen says she is now "No one", and she says she's Arya of Winterfell, and indicates she is of to help her family.

He smiles, like it is okay with him???

I did not understand any of it...

- Is he okay with her leaving the FM, with all the secrets they have?

- How can she be "No one", when she clearly still feels like a Stark?

- When someone has been "named", they have to die, so how can the Waif be a substitude for Arya?

 

Am I missing something? Does the FM have their own agenda, that does not need someone buying them?

The only thing I could think of, was that the Iron Bank, or someone else, has bought the FM to kill someone on Arya's list, so Jaqen knows she will still work for the FM going to Westeros???

 

I didn't understand this either so I went back and watched all of Arya's Braavos scenes from season 5 & 6 to see what's up with the Faceless Men plot. I'm still not sure I really get it since it's hard dropping expectations from the books but I think I might understand a few things better.... or I could be very wrong since they don't explain things well in this storyline. (Although I might watch the compilation one more time because it feels more coherent watching it together.)

- How can she be No One? Well... possibly it's because she put a face in the hall.

Why would that make her No One? It's from the scene when Arya became blind, see she was not blinded as punishment or for training purposes. Arya used a face when she killed Trant and Jaqen said "A girl should have been No One before she took a face from the wall. The faces are for No One, you are still Some One, and to Some One the faces are as good as poison." Then Arya loses her sight.

So imo it is now safe for Arya to wear faces because she added a face to the hall as that makes her No One. The Waifinator kept saying that Arya's not ready but Kindly Jaqen told Arya "A girl is now a Faceless Man, if a girl desires" right before he told her to kill Lady Crane, then he said "One way or another a face will be added to the hall."

Now I wonder if it's really necessary to truly lose your identity and become No One to be a Faceless Man so I want to watch it again.

- Why is Jaqen ok with Arya leaving, and with their secrets? Well...  maybe it's gifts.

When The Waif said Arya failed, and asked to kill her, Jaqen said "Shame. A girl had many gifts." Jaqen says the word 'gift' several times and in every instance he means death. It does seem like he implies death is a gift to his god - he's devout. So Arya has many gifts to give the Many Faced God with her death list - Arya's prayer.

- How can someone else die as a substitute for a "named" one? It's happened a few times already so at least it's sort of established.

First example is the three at Harrenhal. Next with the Thin Man vs Trant, Jaqen said "A girl has taken a life. The wrong life... ...That man's life wasn't yours to take. A girl stole from the Many Faced God. Now a debt is owed. Only death can pay for life." then Jaqen takes poison. Which still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me except when you consider the three from Harrenhal. I don't think Jaqen cares who is named or not, he cares what is owed to his god or not. Maybe.

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On 6/14/2016 at 0:04 PM, tws1978 said:

It was a standard identity crisis. Most of heroes have to go through that at some moment. She started to doubt herself, her values, even her list. She attempted to left her old self behind. She thought she is training to be no one but instead she´s been learning to accept herself, embrace who she is and be ready for her final quest. And it seems Jaqen ultimately knew that´s the case. He just had to wait till she realized that herself. That´s why he smiled at the end. He fulfilled his mission even if Aria thinks she failed.

Most heroes do in fact go thru an identity crisis at some moment, the key word here is moment. Arya's identity crisis, if that's in fact what it was, lasted the better part of 2 seasons. That's far too much time to waste for a character to get a confidence boost and a bit of self awareness.

For what it's worth, I'm hoping Jaqen's smirk at the end is an indication that he may go back to Westeros with her. Obviously he's been there before so it's not unprecedented

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On 13/06/2016 at 10:56 PM, Darksky said:

It showed the failure of the concept of No One. A human can never completely become No One (not even Jaqen was No One), because we can't fully give up our likes/dislikes, wants/desires, hates etc  We are emotional creatures not robots.

So it's not a human that dies when Arya goes blind?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljFljgf2USk

Jaqen clearly says that the faces are as good as poison to someone. Arya can't be no-one and Arya. Arya can't wear faces if she is not no-one. Arya can't wear faces.

The only way the plot can make any sense is if Arya is dead and the waif became no-one, enabling her to wear Arya's face.

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On 14/06/2016 at 5:26 AM, a bastard with a harp said:

If the waif succeeded in her mission, whose face was added to the Hall of Faces, since the waif was wearing Arya's face ? It didn't looked like Lady Crane's face, for me it was the Waif's face. So If she actually succeeded on killing Arya, she has removed her own face to add to the wall ? What the hell ?

Hers - she either removed her own face to become no-one or the Waifs face was never her real face to start with. A 'no-one' can't have their own face.

Remember in the book the kindly man had a face that was like a skull with worms when Arya first saw him - the No-one's don't have a human face, they just have meat and bones where a face should be.

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On 14/06/2016 at 6:52 AM, Essan said:

Arya finished her training.   Not to become No-one.   But to become Some-one.   She had been hiding under various identities, before getting a ship to Braavos.    Finally she acknowledges who she truely is and where she belongs.    And that was the point of her story arc.

That's all well and good from Arya's point of view - but it doesn't really help a magical assassins guild, does it? It basically means the world lore is nonsensical and exists only to serve some half baked character development. 

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On 14/06/2016 at 5:09 PM, YOVMO said:
  On 13/06/2016 at 4:44 PM, Nerevanin said:

Braavos is slowly becoming the next Dorne. It's beyond explaining and understanding.

On 14/06/2016 at 5:09 PM, YOVMO said:

this seems about right.

I'm finding it hard to understand what was so difficult to understand. But hey ho..

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Its just a huge convoluted mess of a story and I'm sticking with my idea that they had two people writing it that weren't coordinating, because otherwise it means they have a writer who thinks chicken soup for the soul also heals massive intestinal and internal injuries in people not much thicker than the blade was long.

It also assumes that the Waif who was further along in her training, never received blind training herself.  It wasn't shown to the audience, so it must be true.  It makes it such a cool moment in the show when Arya slices the candle in half, and cuts power to the light.

Also I guess Needle must be at least +5, since we never see Arya beat the Waif before, especially when blind.  There is no evidence in the show that she was holding back either.  If anything the waif was holding back.

I do think the actress who played the waif did an incredible Robert Patrick impression though, that was one of the funniest moments in the show.

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