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LadyArwen

What's west of Westeros?

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Maybe there is an island out there where all the people that vanish from the show end up. Gendry is probably Mayor of the town, and Lady Stoneheart is his master of justice. I bet Lord Umber is there too, running a safe house for exiled whores.

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25 minutes ago, Net-Viper X said:

Maybe there is an island out there where all the people that vanish from the show end up. Gendry is probably Mayor of the town, and Lady Stoneheart is his master of justice. I bet Lord Umber is there too, running a safe house for exiled whores.

And Arianne is Lord Umber's top earner. 

Only for now though. (f)Aegon is on his way w/ the golden company to conquer and retake his homeland.

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2 hours ago, The Dames do Moan said:

And Arianne is Lord Umber's top earner. 

Only for now though. (f)Aegon is on his way w/ the golden company to conquer and retake his homeland.

Damn I forgot all about them! Its about to get very exciting over there in Evenfurtherwesteros.

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8 hours ago, No One of Importance said:

Here it is, from the Kingsmoot:

 

Ah, right, thanks. That was bugging me all day, trying to remember. 

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On 6/14/2016 at 4:37 AM, Alex7s said:

lmao

Back to essos. back to this FM mess :rofl:

This was really the joke I was trying to make. I wasn't trying to start a serious debate about the world being round, and who knows it!

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it's where you can find gendry and nymeria :D

but seriously, I think it's a reference the the Lands of Always Winter, I think it's a foreshadowing for her going there (with other characters for a something related to the WW)

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

it's where you can find gendry and nymeria :D

but seriously, I think it's a reference the the Lands of Always Winter, I think it's a foreshadowing for her and everybody going there for the final battle

 

 

The Lands of Always Winter are super far north. 

If anything, once you pass a few outlying Iron Islands stragglers, then it should be Asshai where the show binders come from. I think GRRM has said there will never be a POV that goes there on page :blush:

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10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The Lands of Always Winter are super far north. 

Yes that true but according to the map it is also the most western part in Westeros

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5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

If anything, once you pass a few outlying Iron Islands stragglers, then it should be Asshai where the show binders come from. I think GRRM has said there will never be a POV that goes there on page 

no Asshai!! So we will never see the most mysterious and exotic region in planetos :crying:

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You get to the edge of Macumber's pupil, or iris, or something - you see a whole lot of white, with some red lines, basically.

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Actually GRRM confirms that the world is in fact round.



Can you provide a link? Do you know if he discussed how knowledgeable the people of the world are by region there or elsewhere?

That said, Arya is about as high born as you can get and had a Maester in her castle to teach her. Whether or not she is aware that the world is round I do not know, but she probably has a better chance of knowing it than a peasant girl or even the girl of a well off merchant or smith.



But Arya was taught by one.



She was a kid when she left Winterfell. Had either of you learned everything school has to teach by ten years old? Also, we never saw Arya being taught by a maester. Only the boys were taught by a maester.

In every example we have of education in Westeros, the primary things nobles teach their children are geography, family history, families of the region and all pertinent details, history of the country, survival skills (varies by region but includes fighting), and almost certainly basic mathematics. For boys anyway. Girls are taught to be housewives. Arya is a girl.

All of these things have in common the fact they are absolutely necessary for a noble to know as soon as possible in this world. Including girls, as they are to be married off and noone wants a bad housewife. So if you produce bad housewives as a family, noone will want to marry your house's daughters and they'll be stuck at home doing nothing but giving the matriarch free time.

It is likely that maesters teach the noble children who have access to them everything in time, including basic medicine and astronomy and details about the world and the universe and more, but all these things are less important and thus likely to be taught later.

It is highly unlikely that Arya, who was being taught to sew and be a lady, who also happened to not even be a teenager, would have had lessons on the world entire when it isn't an important or even semi-important subject.

The dialogue proves that Arya doesn't know what's west of Westeros.  It neither proves nor disproves anything about her knowledge of the shape of the world.




Ridiculous. If she knew the world was round, she'd know that Westeros is West of Westeros. And East. And North and South too. It very much proves she doesn't know the shape of the world beyond maps.

Would you please provide a quote to support your assertion.



Quote was already provided. It was in the episode. Try paying attention.

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2 hours ago, Vastet said:

Can you provide a link? Do you know if he discussed how knowledgeable the people of the world are by region there or elsewhere?

It was a long time ago, more than five years, probably longer, so no. If I can manage to find it again I will post it here. And I don't recall, but I don't believe he did comment on the latter part of your question.

2 hours ago, Vastet said:

Ridiculous. If she knew the world was round, she'd know that Westeros is West of Westeros. And East. And North and South too. It very much proves she doesn't know the shape of the world beyond maps.
.

I'm hoping this is just a typing or editing mistake or something, 'cause it really doesn't make any sense. Either way, her comments in no way support whether she would be aware of the world being round or not. The Maesters could have figured out the shape of the planet using astronomy, but this in no way would inform them what lies beyond the Sunset sea. There could very well be another undiscovered continent that lies west of Westeros or it could just be ocean until Assai. Nobody knows what lies west of Westeros whether the world is believed to be round, flat, or a frigging octagon for that matter. So why would Arya? Her comments are inconclusive at the very most, in supporting your assertion.

The quote I've provided in my previous post would also support the notion that the world is round because it notes that although Brandon the Shipwright was never heard from, it is know that he had never reached Asshai. Why would there be any suspicion that he might possibly reach Asshai if there wasn't a belief that the world was round?

2 hours ago, Vastet said:

She was a kid when she left Winterfell. Had either of you learned everything school has to teach by ten years old? Also, we never saw Arya being taught by a maester. Only the boys were taught by a maester.

In every example we have of education in Westeros, the primary things nobles teach their children are geography, family history, families of the region and all pertinent details, history of the country, survival skills (varies by region but includes fighting), and almost certainly basic mathematics. For boys anyway. Girls are taught to be housewives. Arya is a girl.

All of these things have in common the fact they are absolutely necessary for a noble to know as soon as possible in this world. Including girls, as they are to be married off and noone wants a bad housewife. So if you produce bad housewives as a family, noone will want to marry your house's daughters and they'll be stuck at home doing nothing but giving the matriarch free time.

It is likely that maesters teach the noble children who have access to them everything in time, including basic medicine and astronomy and details about the world and the universe and more, but all these things are less important and thus likely to be taught later.

It is highly unlikely that Arya, who was being taught to sew and be a lady, who also happened to not even be a teenager, would have had lessons on the world entire when it isn't an important or even semi-important subject.
 

All of this, which is just speculation (it's not necessary for GRRM to include every detail regarding the education given, just because it isn't mentioned, doesn't mean she didn't receive any), is irrelevant anyway, we're not talking about learning a complicated subject like calculus or knowing every detail regarding the geography of Planetos. I knew the Earth was round before I even started playschool. Knowing this was in no way fundamental to me being capable of fulfilling my responsibilities as a toddler.

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@Vastet

Here you go.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1206/

Quote

 

3) Is your world round. I mean if Dany traveled far enough east couldnt she come to the other side of westeros?

Yes, the world is round. Might be a little larger than ours, though. I was thinking more like Vance's Big Planet.... but don't hold me to that. 

 

 

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It was a long time ago, more than five years, probably longer, so no. If I can manage to find it again I will post it here. And I don't recall, but I don't believe he did comment on the latter part of your question.



I'm glad you found the quote, good to know the world is round. But I notice there's no mention of whether there's any society on the planet which is aware of it. GRRM doesn't even know how big the world is. Going from that quote alone, we have nothing to work with.

I'm hoping this is just a typing or editing mistake or something, 'cause it really doesn't make any sense.



It makes perfect sense. Travel in any direction on the surface of a sphere and you'll eventually wind up at your origin. This is the simplest geometry there is. Something so simple that even someone 10,000 years ago could figure it out. You could figure it out in a heartbeat if you weren't so intent on being right that you're ignoring the fact you are wrong.

Either way, her comments in no way support whether she would be aware of the world being round or not.



False. The comment she made proves beyond argument that she has no concept of the world beyond maps. Noone who knew the shape of the world could claim ignorance of the fact that going West beyond the Western border of a world map would have you pop up on the Eastern border of said map.

The Maesters could have figured out the shape of the planet using astronomy, but this in no way would inform them what lies beyond the Sunset sea. There could very well be another undiscovered continent that lies west of Westeros or it could just be ocean until Assai. Nobody knows what lies west of Westeros whether the world is believed to be round, flat, or a frigging octagon for that matter. So why would Arya? Her comments are inconclusive at the very most, in supporting your assertion.



Actually the knowledge of the curvature of the planet is instrumental in figuring out the size of the planet. Once you know one, you know both. Once you know the size of the planet and apply maps in scale to that size, you'd know exactly how much space was unexplored and where that space is.

An organisation as old, powerful, and respected as the Maesters of the Citadel would have had little trouble commissioning expeditions to fill in the blanks centuries before the story takes place, except at the polar caps where it would be too cold for their level of technology to keep them alive and complete their objectives.

If the maesters know the world is round, and there is anywhere else left unmapped, it is because it is too dangerous to go there. But only one place mentioned in the world is sufficiently dangerous for sailors to balk at, and that's Valyria. So there isn't such a place. So either the maesters know the world is round and that Asshai is West of Westeros, or they don't.

Either way, Arya and Lady Crane certainly don't know.

The quote I've provided in my previous post would also support the notion that the world is round because it notes that although Brandon the Shipwright was never heard from, it is know that he had never reached Asshai. Why would there be any suspicion that he might possibly reach Asshai if there wasn't a belief that the world was round?



We're discussing the tv show, not the novels. Technically even GRRM quotes aren't necessarily valid here. Especially now that the show has surpassed the novels on every timeline.

All of this, which is just speculation



No it's an argument. Nearly everything said in this topic is speculation, including everything you've said. So that's not a valid counter-argument.

(it's not necessary for GRRM to include every detail regarding the education given, just because it isn't mentioned, doesn't mean she didn't receive any), 



Noone said she didn't receive any education. You really are completely ignorant in the differences between how boys and girls were raised through history aren't you? Well GRRM and D&D aren't, fortunately, so your opinions aren't really relevant.

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4 hours ago, Vastet said:

I'm glad you found the quote, good to know the world is round. But I notice there's no mention of whether there's any society on the planet which is aware of it. GRRM doesn't even know how big the world is. Going from that quote alone, we have nothing to work with.

I stated that GRRM confirmed that Planetos was round, that's it. You asked me to provide a quote so I did. That's what we have to work with. I never claimed that it mentioned whether or not any society was aware of this.

4 hours ago, Vastet said:

It makes perfect sense. Travel in any direction on the surface of a sphere and you'll eventually wind up at your origin. This is the simplest geometry there is. Something so simple that even someone 10,000 years ago could figure it out. You could figure it out in a heartbeat if you weren't so intent on being right that you're ignoring the fact you are wrong.

 

4 hours ago, Vastet said:

False. The comment she made proves beyond argument that she has no concept of the world beyond maps. Noone who knew the shape of the world could claim ignorance of the fact that going West beyond the Western border of a world map would have you pop up on the Eastern border of said map.

Your taking Arya's comments out of context and projecting your own thoughts into what it implies she knows. By your own logic, she should have said Bravos is west of Bravos, and Bravos is east of Bravos, instead of saying Westeros is west, and Essos is east. Whether Arya is aware that the world is round or not, that doesn't change the fact that is known that nobody has sailed west from Westeros and returned, or made it around the planet to arrive in Essos (or Asshai to be more accurate to the known geography of the planet). The fact is that nobody knows whether it is all ocean until you would arrive in Asshai, or if there is other unexplored lands to be discovered. Taking Arya's comments in the proper context, the only thing that can be confirmed is that she was curious about an unexplored area of the planet, this in no way proves whether or not she knows the shape of the planet, just that nobody has ever successfully ventured west to explore.

You seem to think that I'm am implying that her comments prove that she does know the world is round, I am not. I am only sayin  that it is possible that she knows, as well as the fact that Arya's comments have nothing at all to do with her knowledge of the planets shape, and don't prove one side of the argument or the other. 

4 hours ago, Vastet said:

Actually the knowledge of the curvature of the planet is instrumental in figuring out the size of the planet. Once you know one, you know both. Once you know the size of the planet and apply maps in scale to that size, you'd know exactly how much space was unexplored and where that space is.

So? It is irrelevant whether they know the size of the planet or not.

 

4 hours ago, Vastet said:

An organisation as old, powerful, and respected as the Maesters of the Citadel would have had little trouble commissioning expeditions to fill in the blanks centuries before the story takes place, except at the polar caps where it would be too cold for their level of technology to keep them alive and complete their objectives.

If the maesters know the world is round, and there is anywhere else left unmapped, it is because it is too dangerous to go there. But only one place mentioned in the world is sufficiently dangerous for sailors to balk at, and that's Valyria. So there isn't such a place. So either the maesters know the world is round and that Asshai is West of Westeros, or they don't.

Completely false. 

It is canon that nobody knows what lies beyond the Sunset Sea, and common knowledge that any expeditions to explore that region were lost and never heard of again. It is also canon that many other areas of the planet have not been explored, including the southern regions of Sothoryos which has been calculated to be around the equator and not near a polar cap. As well, any regions south of the Summer Islands are still unknown or chartered.

 Again, you are making things up, and projecting your own wishful thoughts and conclusions as facts.

4 hours ago, Vastet said:

No it's an argument. Nearly everything said in this topic is speculation, including everything you've said. So that's not a valid counter-argument.

OK, I should have said unfounded speculation.

4 hours ago, Vastet said:

Noone said she didn't receive any education. You really are completely ignorant in the differences between how boys and girls were raised through history aren't you? Well GRRM and D&D aren't, fortunately, so your opinions aren't really relevant.

First of all, when I said "any", I was referring to the specific education you were claiming that she did not receive, not any education at all. So, thank you for your ignorant comment about my ignorance, but I know very well of the differences in the types of education that the girls would have received in contrast to the boys. And you have to stop applying your real world understanding of things to a fictional story. The ways that children were raise throughout history is irrelevant to how they were raised in Westeros. Unless it is specifically stated that she did not receive a certain type of education, you cannot rule out for a certainty that she didn't.

Secondly, you are missing the point, this kind of information isn't reliant on the type of education you receive, it would be common knowledge. I don't think Arya would have needed to be educated and trained in the same disciplines as the boys to know that a sword is sharp and can cut you. If it is known by anyone that the world is round, then it is very possible that Arya knows this as well. 

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I stated that GRRM confirmed that Planetos was round, that's it.



Too bad that wasn't the centrepoint of the argument, and it makes no difference.

Your taking Arya's comments out of context and projecting your own thoughts into what it implies she knows.



No. You're ignoring dialogue and context to project your thoughts into what she knows. I'm using her dialogue and the context to extrapolate what she knows. Basically, I'm the scientist and you're the priest.

By your own logic, she should have said Bravos is west of Bravos, and Bravos is east of Bravos, instead of saying Westeros is west, and Essos is east.



lol this makes no sense at all.

Whether Arya is aware that the world is round or not, that doesn't change the fact that is known that nobody has sailed west from Westeros and returned, or made it around the planet to arrive in Essos (or Asshai to be more accurate to the known geography of the planet).



100% false. It is NOT known that anybody or nobody sailed West from Westeros. It isn't a fact. There's absolutely no evidence either way.

The fact is that nobody knows whether it is all ocean until you would arrive in Asshai, or if there is other unexplored lands to be discovered.



Actually WE know that there isn't anything between Westeros and Asshai, so you're still wrong.

Taking Arya's comments in the proper context, the only thing that can be confirmed is that she was curious about an unexplored area of the planet, this in no way proves whether or not she knows the shape of the planet, just that nobody has ever successfully ventured west to explore.



No her comments in the proper context prove conclusively that she doesn't know the shape of the world.

You seem to think that I'm am implying that her comments prove that she does know the world is round, I am not. I am only sayin  that it is possible that she knows, as well as the fact that Arya's comments have nothing at all to do with her knowledge of the planets shape, and don't prove one side of the argument or the other. 



It is not possible that she would know the world is round. And her comments have much to do with that demonstrated fact.

So? It is irrelevant whether they know the size of the planet or not.



No it isn't. It couldn't be more relevant, in fact.

Completely false. 



Completely false.

It is canon that nobody knows what lies beyond the Sunset Sea, and common knowledge that any expeditions to explore that region were lost and never heard of again.



Completely false.

It is also canon that many other areas of the planet have not been explored, including the southern regions of Sothoryos which has been calculated to be around the equator and not near a polar cap. As well, any regions south of the Summer Islands are still unknown or chartered.



False and speculation. Again, this is the show forum. Not the book forum.

Again, you are making things up, and projecting your own wishful thoughts and conclusions as facts.



Projection.

OK, I should have said unfounded speculation.



Too bad it isn't unfounded.

First of all, when I said "any", I was referring to the specific education you were claiming that she did not receive, not any education at all. So, thank you for your ignorant comment about my ignorance, but I know very well of the differences in the types of education that the girls would have received in contrast to the boys.



Ridiculous. If you had any idea you wouldn't be here arguing the impossible. You proved your ignorance when you said earlier that she had access to a maester, which she didn't (in either book or show). You can project your ignorance onto me as much as you like, it won't change anything.

And you have to stop applying your real world understanding of things to a fictional story.



No I don't. Even pure fiction still relies completely on real world physics and history to function. It's also amusing to me that you would say this even though you do it constantly.

The ways that children were raise throughout history is irrelevant to how they were raised in Westeros.



Why? GRRM and D&D are using our history to write the story in the first place. It is perfectly logical to assume they've done their homework on children in history and applied that to the story. To say otherwise will require a quote you cannot provide because it doesn't exist.

Unless it is specifically stated that she did not receive a certain type of education, you cannot rule out for a certainty that she didn't.



Unless it is specifically stated that she received special education, it can be ruled out. It is never stated that she received special education, so she didn't.

Secondly, you are missing the point, this kind of information isn't reliant on the type of education you receive, it would be common knowledge.



Funny how not one character in book or tv show has ever commented on what, you claim with 0 evidence, would be common knowledge. Common doesn't mean what you think it does.

I don't think Arya would have needed to be educated and trained in the same disciplines as the boys to know that a sword is sharp and can cut you. If it is known by anyone that the world is round, then it is very possible that Arya knows this as well. 



It is clearly not known by everyone. Abundantly clear.

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