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StuSeaworth

Why is Mereen under siege?

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1 hour ago, legba11 said:

I'll ask again (not you, again in general).  What specifically did Tyrion do which helped the Masters with this attack?  All I've seen is he gave them nothing and bought some time (since time is so amorphous in this show) for his city to recover without an insurrection. He been a cocky prick, he's always a cocky prick.  The writers could have replaced dick joke #197 with a simple scene where Meeren forces are sent to do some other important task in any number of episodes.  

I answered that. He transferred Mereen from a war footing to a peacetime footing. He was not alert to an attack. They lulled him into a false sense of security to the extent that when the ships arrived, the only military option was to cede the harbour and retreat to the pyramid. Basically, a massive tactical victory was handed to the enemy because he gifted them, unwittingly, the element of surprise. 

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13 hours ago, Frejac said:

I neither understand nor buy the arguments that the attack is somehow Tyrion's fault for getting used or played by the slavers or showing them weakness or some other nonsense.

The slavers would have attacked regardless.

They didn't need Tyrion to show them Dany was gone.  They didn't need Tyrion to show them Drogon was gone.  They didn't need Tyrion to show them the fleet was gone.

They would have already known all of this.  They had the Sons of the Harpy.

Luring Tyrion into a false sense of security would have absolutely no effect because there would be nothing he could do against their attack.  He has no ships.

And their meeting didn't buy them time to prepare their forces either; they would have been doing that anyway.  It's not like Dany would have had the reach or resources to truly stop them, even if she were still in the city.

Nothing was Tyrion's fault here.

Agreed. I have no idea what M and GW were on about, or what different tactic could have been taken to change or stop the siege from happening. 

This siege, by any measure, is 100% on Dany. 

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43 minutes ago, Johnimus said:

I answered that. He transferred Mereen from a war footing to a peacetime footing. He was not alert to an attack. They lulled him into a false sense of security to the extent that when the ships arrived, the only military option was to cede the harbour and retreat to the pyramid. Basically, a massive tactical victory was handed to the enemy because he gifted them, unwittingly, the element of surprise. 

Considering the ships were already burnt, having some advance knowledge that the siege was coming does nothing to change the fact that the Harbor wasn't defensible.

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5 minutes ago, Jcoz said:

Agreed. I have no idea what M and GW were on about, or what different tactic could have been taken to change or stop the siege from happening. 

This siege, by any measure, is 100% on Dany. 

Agreed, she left them in a terrible position. She created enemies everywhere along slavers bay and chained up 2 of the 3 reasons they weren't attacking and took the third out of the city with her.

I still haven't seen a good answer for what Tyrion did wrong. They would have had to cede the Barbour and retreate anyway, they had no ships. There are no examples anywhere of him transferring them to a "peace time footing." It's not like he sent troops out of Mereen or stopped patrols. Quite the opposite, he told Grey Worm not to take the Unsullied and attack Yunkai or Astapor because that would leave them undefended.

honestly I don't care about them only first seeing the ships while when they come into eyesight off the top of the great pyramid. Who knows how long it was in between them seeing the ships and them attacking, it could of been 3 days for all we know. It's better than a solider rushing in and saying "oh hey" look a solider came back and told us the ships are 5 days off and then all of the sudden they are there the next scene.

Forgot who said it above, but if the show runners wanted me personally to feel like Tyrion fucked up, they had to show me him do something wrong. IMO the slavers were attacking either way, he just bought them some time of peace prior to it.

 

 

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3 hours ago, legba11 said:

I'll ask again (not you, again in general).  What specifically did Tyrion do which helped the Masters with this attack?  All I've seen is he gave them nothing and bought some time (since time is so amorphous in this show) for his city to recover without an insurrection. He been a cocky prick, he's always a cocky prick.  The writers could have replaced dick joke #197 with a simple scene where Meeren forces are sent to do some other important task in any number of episodes.  

Thanks, I this this was a big part of my original reason for creating the thread but I wasn't able to put into words and ask correctly. The implication is that Tyrion somehow caused this siege. If Tyrion does not make this deal with the slavers to phase out slavery over 7 years, everything would have happened exactly the same.

My other question still surrounds motivation. I understand those responsible for the siege are pro-slavery and having Mereen ruled by someone who has outlawed slavery would upset them and possibly impact their business. But is Mereen so critical to the slave trade that they are willing to lose tens of thousands of slaves attacking the city? I think it's often stated that attacking a well guarded castle, one well placed soldier can defend against 10-20 attacking soldiers. Even if Mereen is not well guarded nor a defensible castle as are typical in Westeros, it's still easy to see how the slavers are going to lose 5+ slaves for each defender they take out. I understand it's not as precise as I'm making it out to be, but each way I think about this it seems they will sacrifice much than they will gain trying to take the city.

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1 hour ago, Johnimus said:

I answered that. He transferred Mereen from a war footing to a peacetime footing. He was not alert to an attack. They lulled him into a false sense of security to the extent that when the ships arrived, the only military option was to cede the harbour and retreat to the pyramid. Basically, a massive tactical victory was handed to the enemy because he gifted them, unwittingly, the element of surprise. 

Did you observe this in any way? Or are we made to assume that Tyrion reduced defenses after that meeting with the slavers?

I don't think Tyrion is that dumb personally, but if this is what the show creators are going for, why not add in a single line of dialogue or short scene showing city watch patrols being reduced or harbor defenses being used elsewhere? 

Even if Tyrion was aware of the attack, what could they have done to prevent this? They had no ships and a land army can do little to stop a 1000 ships from strolling into the harbor.

 

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4 hours ago, El Guapo said:

 

Not at all. I save my criticisms and complaints for things that are worth criticizing and complaining such as Sansa's season 5 storyline or the entire Dornish plot or from this past episode Arya not only surviving her gut would but then able to run around Braavos jumping around like a ninja. This however just seems like one big nitpick to me.  But like I said to each their own.

Feel free to criticize thoe show, or not, but you are not the arbiter on what the community as a whole gets to criticize. If you do not feel that 1000 ships miraculously showing up in the harbor next to your city is odd, then you don't need to participate in this thread, but some of us feel it is a topic worth discussing.

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40 minutes ago, StuSeaworth said:

Did you observe this in any way? Or are we made to assume that Tyrion reduced defenses after that meeting with the slavers?

I don't think Tyrion is that dumb personally, but if this is what the show creators are going for, why not add in a single line of dialogue or short scene showing city watch patrols being reduced or harbor defenses being used elsewhere? 

Even if Tyrion was aware of the attack, what could they have done to prevent this? They had no ships and a land army can do little to stop a 1000 ships from strolling into the harbor.

 

Apart from making there own trebuchet and firing back at the ships literally nothing.

Quite honestly though, the thought of a boat mounted Trebuchet is ridiculous in and of itself. Half the ships would either capsize due to the counterbalance or they would rip off the ships masts. you would need a perfectly calm sea for any reasonable hope of accuracy, and at best they could fire two times an hour if even that.

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16 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

Apart from making there own trebuchet and firing back at the ships literally nothing.

Quite honestly though, the thought of a boat mounted Trebuchet is ridiculous in and of itself. Half the ships would either capsize due to the counterbalance or they would rip off the ships masts. you would need a perfectly calm sea for any reasonable hope of accuracy, and at best they could fire two times an hour if even that.

Trebuchet? Trebuchet?

Were they throwing flaming babies at Mereen?

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29 minutes ago, StuSeaworth said:

Feel free to criticize thoe show, or not, but you are not the arbiter on what the community as a whole gets to criticize. If you do not feel that 1000 ships miraculously showing up in the harbor next to your city is odd, then you don't need to participate in this thread, but some of us feel it is a topic worth discussing.

No offense but I will participate in any thread that I want and if I find something is a silly little nitpick I am going to say it is a silly little nitpick.

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Did they have trebuckets on those ships?  I didn't think they did.  I believe some war galleys did have catapults mounted on the front back in ancient times.  

I'm just curious how the hell the attackers were able to get close enough for catapult range without anyone noticing.   This was a massive fleet coming from the sea, not a raiding party of hunters jumping out from the woods.  You can regularly see lone ships on the horizon from a tower as far as 20kms away.  I know it was evening, but there was still enough light, that a proper watchman should have been capable of noticing and alerting the damned city way before those ships got anywhere close enough to fire catapults.

You don't just surprise attack a city with a fleet.  

Quote

No offense but I will participate in any thread that I want and if I find something is a silly little nitpick I am going to say it is a silly little nitpick.

Respectfully, many of us don't think this is a nitpick at all.  Personally, I think it's a waste of time to measure in degrees each others subjective opinions regarding what constitutes as valid and invalid criticism, don't you?  

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6 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

No offense but I will participate in any thread that I want and if I find something is a silly little nitpick I am going to say it is a silly little nitpick.

Fair enough. I will save my responses for people who are capable of engaging in dialogue more sophisticated than "your opinion is wrong and mine is right".

Back on Topic

31 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

Apart from making there own trebuchet and firing back at the ships literally nothing.

Quite honestly though, the thought of a boat mounted Trebuchet is ridiculous in and of itself. Half the ships would either capsize due to the counterbalance or they would rip off the ships masts. you would need a perfectly calm sea for any reasonable hope of accuracy, and at best they could fire two times an hour if even that.

I'm not sure trebuchets were ever used for naval defense, in real life or in Planetos,  whether they were land mounted or on a ship. Sure Tyrion used them to flign some wildfire, but that was for a specific plan, get the ships into the river, seal off their exit, and then fling wildfire pretty much anywhere and it will devastate. They didn't have to be precise at the battle of the blackwater but it seems this bay is far to large for this defense strategy to work.

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Because its a book plot point and they've been lacking those alot this season (makes me even more angry that they killed Barristan if they were going to do the battle of fire in the first place)

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1 minute ago, StuSeaworth said:

Fair enough. I will save my responses for people who are capable of engaging in dialogue more sophisticated than "your opinion is wrong and mine is right".

 

 You must have missed the part where I said after I gave my opinion "to each his own". I mean I only wrote in two separate posts.

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3 hours ago, Jcoz said:

Considering the ships were already burnt, having some advance knowledge that the siege was coming does nothing to change the fact that the Harbor wasn't defensible.

Of course it was defensible. They could have mounted trebuchets on the walls, prepared fire ships, any thing of that sort to defend the harbor.

If the ships could fire into the city, the city could fire back, and fire back more effectively since they would have the higher ground.

By obtaining "peace", defensive preparations were not made, and that is what allowed the slavers to sail into the harbor and start bombarding the city unopposed.

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2 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

Apart from making there own trebuchet and firing back at the ships literally nothing.

Quite honestly though, the thought of a boat mounted Trebuchet is ridiculous in and of itself. Half the ships would either capsize due to the counterbalance or they would rip off the ships masts. you would need a perfectly calm sea for any reasonable hope of accuracy, and at best they could fire two times an hour if even that.

They were firing forward, so capsizing was not a problem. They didn't need to be accurate, they were firing greek fire, so hitting anywhere in the city would have been acceptable.

There are stories from Roman and Medieval times of ships mounted with trebuchets, so it is feasible. And they definitely used ballista. The ships would have to be designed with trebuchet use in mind however.

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3 hours ago, tugela said:

Of course it was defensible. They could have mounted trebuchets on the walls, prepared fire ships, any thing of that sort to defend the harbor.

If the ships could fire into the city, the city could fire back, and fire back more effectively since they would have the higher ground.

By obtaining "peace", defensive preparations were not made, and that is what allowed the slavers to sail into the harbor and start bombarding the city unopposed.

Yep exactly. Tyrion was convinced he had negotiated a peace and started trying to reinvigorate the city with red priests and open trading. He revels in his good wine and full marketplace. What he should have been doing was building the city defences and expecting the masters to break their truce.

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5 hours ago, tugela said:

They were firing forward, so capsizing was not a problem. They didn't need to be accurate, they were firing greek fire, so hitting anywhere in the city would have been acceptable.

There are stories from Roman and Medieval times of ships mounted with trebuchets, so it is feasible. And they definitely used ballista. The ships would have to be designed with trebuchet use in mind however.

The only known ships to maybe have trebuchets were Chinese, and even these were merely drawings of huge, massive ships. I am not sure you understand the size and amount of counterbalance a trebuchet would need to be to fire from the distance shown. there is no way it could be bow mounted without hitting the forward mast and sails. There is absolutely no way these can be catapults either, the range is way to far.

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7 hours ago, Apathetic Onlooker said:

Did they have trebuckets on those ships?  I didn't think they did.  I believe some war galleys did have catapults mounted on the front back in ancient times.  

I'm just curious how the hell the attackers were able to get close enough for catapult range without anyone noticing.   This was a massive fleet coming from the sea, not a raiding party of hunters jumping out from the woods.  You can regularly see lone ships on the horizon from a tower as far as 20kms away.  I know it was evening, but there was still enough light, that a proper watchman should have been capable of noticing and alerting the damned city way before those ships got anywhere close enough to fire catapults.

You don't just surprise attack a city with a fleet.  

Respectfully, many of us don't think this is a nitpick at all.  Personally, I think it's a waste of time to measure in degrees each others subjective opinions regarding what constitutes as valid and invalid criticism, don't you?  

not catapults, quite clearly trebuchets.

 

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They just needed to create a way to have Dany flex some dragon muscle and re-assert some dominance over Mereen.  Looks like they made Tyrion wear the goat horns for this one.  

 

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