Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

SilentLion

Senseless dog deaths and Jon Snow

Recommended Posts

We've lost two more direwolves this season.   Reading the commentary this season, a lot of posters have complained that the direwolves deaths have had little meaning or relevance to the story.  

Last week, I was rewatching season one and noticed something.   When Ned is ordered by King Robert Baratheon to kill Sansa's direwolf, Lady's death is immediately followed by a jump to the scene of Bran's eyes opening from his coma.  The cut was so immediate, that it seems clear that the meant to associate those two events. 

That made me think of the Jon Snow resurrection scene.  Because of the delay between Mellisandre's incantations and Jon's revival (Everyone including Mellisandre had left the room and assumed she had failed), many posters have wondered whether Mellisandre's magic was really the direct cause, or at least not the only cause.  

Jon Stark's eyes open and he sits up at the end of episode 2, and this sequence is repeated again at the start of episode 3.  Ghost stirs prior to Jon's eyes opening.  Later in episode 3, the Umbers present Rickon and Shaggydog's head to Ramsay Bolton.   It is never stated how much earlier Shaggydog has been killed.   Could the instant of Shaggydog's death coincided with the instant of Jon's revival? 

I guess what I'm asking is could their be a form of blood magic going on?   Kill a wolf, save a Stark?   It might give a little more meaning to some of the direwolf deaths.  And it might provide an alternate explanation to Jon's return to life,  other than Mellisandre's magic.

I'm fairly new to the site,  but I have read most of the posts this season and haven't seen this exact theory before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be wonderful to know that their death saved the Stark kids. The only thing that bothers me is, what's about Summer and Greywind? They died and nothing like that happend. The other thing is, that all the kids have a really close connection to their wolves. So why should the death of a certain wolf save a kid they don't have such a close connection to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When Mel was doing the ritual of resurrection, after the shot of Ghost lying there on the floor, I was like "omg, Ghost is gonna die and his soul will revive Jon!" and then... nothing. Jon lives, Ghost lives. Considering that D&D missed such an opportunity to actually and directly use a direwolf for this purpose, I don't think that your theory is true , OP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a neat theory, but probably far too complicated for the TV show to ever try and explain properly. 

I don't think it's anywhere near true either. 

The Ghost response was just him sensing Jon's lack of life, and then eventually, life. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, AlysaGreyfeather said:

It would be wonderful to know that their death saved the Stark kids. The only thing that bothers me is, what's about Summer and Greywind? They died and nothing like that happend. The other thing is, that all the kids have a really close connection to their wolves. So why should the death of a certain wolf save a kid they don't have such a close connection to?

Greywind died - because it was from the book at the time D&D were faithfully following the storylines there. In the books, it is implied that Robb might have tried to warg him after his death and killing Greywind was his final death.

Summer, it was mentioned meant - death of Summer and coming of Winter.

As for Ghost, he is safe for now at this season but I doubt he will live through next season.

Spoiler

Especially if L+R=J. Basically Ghost will save Jon's life and then die, and then Jon will receive a replacement dragon.  So Ghost saving his life and then dying will signify that being considered Ned's bastard saved his life and the death will mean the end of his identification as Stark and moving on to Targ.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, SilentLion said:

We've lost two more direwolves this season.   Reading the commentary this season, a lot of posters have complained that the direwolves deaths have had little meaning or relevance to the story.  

Last week, I was rewatching season one and noticed something.   When Ned is ordered by King Robert Baratheon to kill Sansa's direwolf, Lady's death is immediately followed by a jump to the scene of Bran's eyes opening from his coma.  The cut was so immediate, that it seems clear that the meant to associate those two events. 

That made me think of the Jon Snow resurrection scene.  Because of the delay between Mellisandre's incantations and Jon's revival (Everyone including Mellisandre had left the room and assumed she had failed), many posters have wondered whether Mellisandre's magic was really the direct cause, or at least not the only cause.  

Jon Stark's eyes open and he sits up at the end of episode 2, and this sequence is repeated again at the start of episode 3.  Ghost stirs prior to Jon's eyes opening.  Later in episode 3, the Umbers present Rickon and Shaggydog's head to Ramsay Bolton.   It is never stated how much earlier Shaggydog has been killed.   Could the instant of Shaggydog's death coincided with the instant of Jon's revival? 

I guess what I'm asking is could their be a form of blood magic going on?   Kill a wolf, save a Stark?   It might give a little more meaning to some of the direwolf deaths.  And it might provide an alternate explanation to Jon's return to life,  other than Mellisandre's magic.

I'm fairly new to the site,  but I have read most of the posts this season and haven't seen this exact theory before.

I think this is an interesting theory. I always thought it was intentional that they cut to Bran, and I think you may be on the right path, to an extent. Here is what might have been going on:

Bran, while in his coma, was having green/wolf dreams. In the books, when Bran or whoever wargs their wolf, you can see the wolf's thoughts and you realize they can innately "sense" their brothers and sisters, so when something bad happens to one of the wolves, the other wolves feel it. If Bran were warged (intentionally or not) into Summer at the time of Lady's death, he too would have "sensed" it, just as Summer did, and this might have been the jolt that woke him.

As far as Jon goes, in the show, we've seen little to no indication he has warging ability. It's true Shaggydog's death may have happened sometime around his resurrection, but I don't think it played any part in it. We've seen Thoros use the power of the Red God to bring Beric back, so why wouldn't Mel be able to do it too?

Sad to say, I think D&D just hate the wolves and want to find an excuse to get rid of them. However, I do admit I think there's more to the Starks and their connection to their wolves, but we'll have to wait for the books to find out what it is/how it works. We aren't going to find out on the TV show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From a Meta perspective, we all know GRRM has a true love for wolves. I think the direwolf deaths are meant to highlight the plight of real-life wolves. Hence, direwolves were thought to be possibly extinct until Jon found the Starks' direwolves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea!  Hey there, SilentLion! 

I'm sure glad I'm not the only one who believes this! :)

I am totally on board with Shaggydog's death causing Jon's resurrection.  I believe that the ironborn haven't been the only ones who think their leaders have to 'die' to be reborn harder and stronger, and I think Ned's crypt musings about how hard his ancestors were - with their stone direwolves curled at their feet - has been a part of that, up until the direwolves south of the Wall were killed off 200 years ago.  It would go a long way to explaining why Ned regarded the old kings of winter with such ominous awe.

I also suspect Summer's death could have caused Arya's abdominal plot armor, even though she was attacked in a different episode.  There's no rule that says the show runners have to display happenings in Essos and Westeros on exactly the same chronology, especially if they're planning for a big reveal.  If the waif's attack on Arya really happened at about the same time Summer died, it would not only explain why she survived, but would also help explain how Arya seemed to have turbo-travelled to the Twins in time for a date with Lord Walder in episode 10.  She started travelling a little earlier than we thought.

We also saw similar magic in season one with Mirri Maz Duur sacrificing Khal Drogo's stallion in order to save his life (she wasn't to blame for the veggie result - someone else's magic interfered with what she was doing), then MMD made use of yet another freshly slaughtered stallion at Drogo's funeral pyre to save her own 'life' (sweeping her soul into the green egg to be reborn as a dragon).

If it's true that Melisandre failed, and that Shaggydog's death resurrected Jon Snow, then we need to keep in mind that we still have both Ghost and Nymeria scampering about.  If Ghost is killed in an early episode of season 7 (or maybe just in the books if the showrunners are simplifying that plotline), then I'd expect Rickon might just wake up, harder and stronger.  In the books Jon did say that Rickon could have all his things, after all.

(By the way, I believe it didn't work for Robb because his body was no longer whole.  Arya asked Thoros if a man without a head could be resurrected, obviously thinking of her father, but the same would apply to Robb, as well.  Also, if there are old folk stories about Starks rising from the dead possessed by the spirit of their direwolves, it could have been a reason why the Freys went to the trouble to behead Robb, and also why they 'decorated' his corpse in the way that they did.  Just sayin'.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Replying to myself with more on this...

Fans have remarked how Beric Dondarrion lost some of his own identity each time he was resurrected, but Jon Snow seems very much the same - traumatized - but still himself.  This supports the idea that Shaggydog's death was the cause. 

GRRM says there is a price to be paid for magic.  The way Thoros brought back Beric, the price that was paid was Beric's loss of his memories and sense of himself.  If Melisandre had succeeded in bringing Jon back using the same method Thoros used, we should see much the same.

On the other hand, if Shaggydog's death is what brought Jon Snow back, then Shaggy's death paid the price - and the result is a Jon Snow whose character is still very much intact.

Here's something else:

Why was there such a kerfuffle over Jon's dead body?  If there was no history of Starks being resurrected by their direwolves, then Jon was simply dead.  A tragedy in many ways, but nevertheless, rather final. 

Why were Jon's friends so adamant about protecting his body from Ser Aliser and the others?  (Because they knew there was a real chance Jon might rise again).

When Edd went to the wildlings to ask for help protecting Jon's dead body, why didn't they just say 'He's dead.  F*** 'I'm.'  (Remember Hardhome?)  Instead they came running to help protect the corpse - because there are old stories of Starks resurrecting, even if they weren't sure of the particulars of how it was accomplished.

Why was Davos so adamant that Melisandre try to resurrect Jon?  If Davos was going to pursue that at all, shouldn't he have done so with Stannis, instead?  Davos's behavior makes sense if there were stories of Starks rising from the dead.

Why did Ser Aliser and the others try to break into the room to get Jon's corpse?  They could have said, 'Sure.  You want to stay locked in that room with a rotting corpse.  Be my guest,' and walked away.   The conspirators had had to leave Jon's corpse at first, so that everyone could see that 'the traitor' really was dead, but once that information had been passed around, they wanted to burn the corpse - in part because there were disturbing stories about Starks rising. 

In the books people (southerners) have referred to the Starks and their direwolves as 'unnatural.'  It all adds up to there having been reasons for them to think so.

Yes, there's more to this besides, but I'm short on time...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lady -> Bran

Grey Wind -> Benjen (reason why he´s not mindless)

Shaggydog -> Jon

Summer -> Arya

I totally buy it, OP. Thanks.

 

edit:

Quote

Why was Davos so adamant that Melisandre try to resurrect Jon?

I believe it´s because he saw the heart of R´hollor in Jon´s blood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, NutBurz said:

I believe it´s because he saw the heart of R´hollor in Jon´s blood.

I'm confused by this.  You think that Davos pestered Melisandre to try to resurrect Jon...because *Davos* "saw the heart of R'hllor in Jon's blood"?

You're not using a smiley, so I'm guessing you're serious, but since when has Davos believed in any of that R'hllor business, really?  Davos accepts that Mel does some pretty impressive black magic, but my point was why would he pursue getting Jon resurrected, but not pursue getting Stannis resurrected?

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Puffin Has Three Heads said:

You're not using a smiley, so I'm guessing you're serious, but since when has Davos believed in any of that R'hllor business, really?  Davos accepts that Mel does some pretty impressive black magic, but my point was why would he pursue getting Jon resurrected, but not pursue getting Stannis resurrected?

He doesn´t have to believe in R´hollor for him to associate the image of Jon´s blood on the ground with the flaming heart that he saw constantly over the last few years.

Maybe you mistook my meaning of "saw the heart of R´hollor in Jon´s blood" for something more spiritual? I mean the actual shape.

He´s seen the red woman do weird things, and then Jon dies and bleed in the shape of her God´s symbol, maybe that would be enough to justify him suddenly going all pious.

Otherwise, your question "why Jon and not Stannis?" is very valid - one could argue he doesn´t know where Stannis´body is, but why didn´t he press on the matter instantly if he already believed something of the kind to be possible?

No, it was Jon´s blood on the ground.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×