Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Im With Stannis

Why is it so important that Jaime is in the Riverlands?

Recommended Posts

I think the fact that it had to be the Riverlands (and not simply away from King's Landing) and that the show has made a big deal to re-introduce the Brotherhood Without Banners this season that there is a connection here.
The BWB seem to be aware of the threat from beyond the Wall and seem likely to head that way soon. I wonder if they'll pick up Brienne and Jaime at some point and drag them North. Perhaps they have a significant role to play in the battle against the White Walkers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, jandslegate said:

I'm starting to think, and this is really just based on the shows deviation of his character, that he never really was on a redemption arc. I'm inclined to think, instead, that he's just so weak minded of an individual that he acts according to what he thinks is acceptable to the people around him. I mean, it's not a far cry to envision him as being that vain; that he'd modify his behaviour for the approval of who he's around. Think about it, he only turns on Cersei in the book because he discovers she cheated on him. He was okay with all her other shenanigans. It was only after he was slighted by her indiscretions that he decided he was done with her. That being said, I loved the idea of or the way his arc seemed to be going in the book but clearly the show doesn't have that in mind for him. 

The thing is that Cersei's infidelities are only part of Jaime's disillusionment towards her.

Jaime clearly thinks of Cersei as a beacon of hope and well survival.

In COK he informs Catelyn that the thought of Cersei sheltered him from Aerys' paranoia.

Quote

As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. 

Following his release from Riverrun, it is the thought of Cersei which motivates him to keep going, even when is a captive.

Quote

 I don't look as much like Cersei this way. She'll hate that.

Quote

Jaime left brothels and whores to his brother Tyrion; Cersei was the only woman he had ever wanted.

Quote

He was glad to be here, glad to be alive, glad to be on his way back to Cersei.

Quote

Jaime curled up beneath his cloak, hoping to dream of Cersei.

Quote

If I were a woman I'd be Cersei

Quote

Live, he told himself harshly, when the mush was like to gag him, live for Cersei, live for Tyrion.

But with Robert dead, Jaime was ready to reveal his affair with Cersei to the world, instead he was forced by his father and sister to conform.

Quote

. He was sick of it, sick of lords and lies, sick of his father, his sister, sick of the whole bloody business

Quote

"I am sick of being careful. The Targaryens wed brother to sister, why shouldn't we do the same? Marry me, Cersei. Stand up before the realm and say it's me you want. We'll have our own wedding feast, and make another son in place of Joffrey."

Their relationship is sick and clearly damages both of them.

During the events of SOS, Jaime realises that.

The procedure of distancing himself from Cersei is gradual, it begun when he refused to kill Tyrion for her.

Tyrion's revelation did not have an instant impact on Jaime. It took some for Jaime to digest the truth/rumours. At the sept he still loved her, he simply did not agree with the man she wanted him to be.

Quote

His sister flinched. "You swore that you would always love me. It is not loving to make me beg."

Jaime could smell the fear on her, even through the rank stench of the corpse. He wanted to take her in his arms and kiss her, to bury his face in her golden curls and promise her that no one would ever hurt her . . . not here, he thought, not here in front of the gods, and Father. "No," he said. "I cannot. Will not."

Jaime also does not approove of the person that Cersei has become or the people she associates with and in retrospect, he was right. 

Quote

The queen was in her cups, Jaime realized. Of late, Cersei always seemed to have a flagon of wine to hand, she who had once scorned Robert Baratheon for his drinking. He misliked that, but these days he seemed to mislike everything his sister did.

Quote

 "First these Kettleblacks, then Qyburn, now her. It's a queer menagerie you are keeping these days, sweet sister."

Jaime turning his back on Cersei is a crucial moment in his arc and it actually begun when he chose to save Brienne, thus delaying his return to KL.

Her having affairs with other men partly makes Jaime to reevaluate his relationship with Cersei.

He has been evolved to someone who is not prompted by his love for Cersei in order to act.

Saving Brienne, sending her to seek and protect Sansa, ending the siege at Riverrun without bloodshed, saving Tyrion had nothing to do with his love for Cersei. On the contrary, they went against to what Cersei wanted him to do. 

I am not suggesting that Lancel, Osmund and Moonboy as Cersei's lovers had no impact on Jaime, but it was the only reason for him to choose to abandon her.

17 minutes ago, RedShirt47 said:

I think the fact that it had to be the Riverlands (and not simply away from King's Landing) and that the show has made a big deal to re-introduce the Brotherhood Without Banners this season that there is a connection here.
The BWB seem to be aware of the threat from beyond the Wall and seem likely to head that way soon. I wonder if they'll pick up Brienne and Jaime at some point and drag them North. Perhaps they have a significant role to play in the battle against the White Walkers.

Perhaps the BWD will arrest Brienne and Pod, find the Starkannister sword in her possession and threaten to kill Pod, unless she delivers Jaime to them?

I can imagine the BWB recruiting Brienne and Pod to their cause, but how can Jaime follow them to the North and why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

People complained that Jamie didn't go to the Riverlands, and that it was important because of Jamies development in the books.

So Jamie goes to the Riverlands, its basically an entire location devoted to Jamies development.. and then people complain nothing happened. Lets not forget the book version of the Riverlands was pretty inconsequential as well, and was predominantly about developing Jamie.

Never happy.

The Riverlands sequence in the books doesn't go nowhere. There are numerous reasons for it happening, some not related to the main crux of the story and some absolutely related to the main crux of the story.

Nor does the book sequence involve people making stupid decisions purely so the story can move away from it as soon as possible.

The show added nothing to anything. I might have found it acceptable had the Blackfish gone with Brienne instead of accepting death. It all amounted to a whole lot of nothing.

It's like I've ordered a BLT sandwich and it comes belatedly and without the filling. It's just two slices of bread. They're not even buttered. How dare I not be happy with that!?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

The Riverlands sequence in the books doesn't go nowhere. There are numerous reasons for it happening, some not related to the main crux of the story and some absolutely related to the main crux of the story.

Nor does the book sequence involve people making stupid decisions purely so the story can move away from it as soon as possible.

The show added nothing to anything. I might have found it acceptable had the Blackfish gone with Brienne instead of accepting death. It all amounted to a whole lot of nothing.

It's like I've ordered a BLT sandwich and it comes belatedly and without the filling. It's just two slices of bread. They're not even buttered. How dare I not be happy with that!?!

What stupid decisions? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

What stupid decisions? 

Brienne offers the Blackfish a chance to take his army north to help his niece's daughter. If he had half a brain cell, it should occur to him that a Stark victory over the Boltons with Tully assistance could potentially lead to the Northerners' help in taking back Riverrun for House Tully.

Edmure shouldn't be that stupid not to realise that the Freys would never allow Jaime to do harm to Roslin's baby. Sure, you can rationalise this as a man driven to the brink, but it's still a stupid decision (and a somewhat easy way out for the writers).

Blackfish stubbornly deciding to die instead of survive to maybe one day fight again with better odds. Again, you can sort of rationalise it as a man who thinks he has lost everything for good. But given that he had an option to escape, it just doesn't wash with me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Brienne offers the Blackfish a chance to take his army north to help his niece's daughter. If he had half a brain cell, it should occur to him that a Stark victory over the Boltons with Tully assistance could potentially lead to the Northerners' help in taking back Riverrun for House Tully.

 

Blackfish is a stubborn old fool who doesn't want to lose his family home to the Lannisters. He'd rather go down fighting. Nothing wrong with that all, thats the sort of man he is. Why is there an assumption that people always make the right choice in a logical unemotional manner, this is a problem with almost all criticism of the show. 



 

Quote

Edmure shouldn't be that stupid not to realise that the Freys would never allow Jaime to do harm to Roslin's baby. Sure, you can rationalise this as a man driven to the brink, but it's still a stupid decision (and a somewhat easy way out for the writers).

Keep having to repeat this, but Edmure is primarily motivated by wanting to end the fighting and go lead a quiet life. Its NOT that he really cares about a kid hes never seen, its that he was never a fighter and is more than tempted by Jamies offer of going and living in Casterly Rock and forgetting all of this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Show-Jamie was sent to the Riverlands because he needed the talk with Brienne and with Edmure, to remind the audience and Jamie himself of his redemption ark. But Show-Jamie isn't quite there yet (redemption). But there was this moment where I thought Edmure broke him. At this point it is just super hard for Show-Jamie to leave Team Cersei. He needed that reminder that Brienne is good and that he likes (or loves) her. When he's back in KL and Cersei fucked up the city - then he'll think of Brienne again. I'm just saying... delaying his character development/redemption ark until after Cersei's fuck-up kinda makes sense, doesn't it? A chance for Jamie to realize that he's not as evil as his twin. I wanna see the expression on NCW's face when he realizes.

Edit: At this moment Jamie's a bit like an alcoholic or drug addict. He knows he has to stop, but it's so goddamn hard, it's way easier to deny it and to keep on destroying himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, oursisthefury69 said:

yea thats not how that works.  Face doesnt transform your entire body structure not sure where you could have possibly got that impression book or show 

Maybe she could prep a different person with that face? Don't know if that is possible or has ever been adressed as an option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Blackfish is a stubborn old fool who doesn't want to lose his family home to the Lannisters. He'd rather go down fighting. Nothing wrong with that all, thats the sort of man he is. Why is there an assumption that people always make the right choice in a logical unemotional manner, this is a problem with almost all criticism of the show. 


Keep having to repeat this, but Edmure is primarily motivated by wanting to end the fighting and go lead a quiet life. Its NOT that he really cares about a kid hes never seen, its that he was never a fighter and is more than tempted by Jamies offer of going and living in Casterly Rock and forgetting all of this. 

You can rationalise nearly anything. Doesn't make it good from a storytelling perspective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think George isn't really in touch with show choices and probably confused what is important in the books, and what is in the show.

Riverlands are very much a central area in the books, where we always have a presence (Brienne when it's no longer Arya, Cat or Jaime) and Martin gets people invested in Riverrun's fate as it's basically the last bastion of the Kingdom of the North we rooted for in first trilogy. Far more time is spent with the Tullys or other secundary characters like all their vassals, or making us hate the Freys. Some other locations like Masha Heddles inn become familiar after being visited in subsequent books, etc.... It may be an important place for characters because it tends to be one readers have some emotionnal attachment to as well.

The show decided to cut most of Riverlands, delaying Riverrun appearance by a season, then making all the country disappear after the Red Wedding until this one, to concentrate more on Kings Landing and the North. Viewers are logically far less invested in the place, and in Tully's fate as well. I don't think it was even mentionned the Blackfish took Riverrun in name of the Kingdom of the North, he's just some old guy taking his family castle, so there's no "we root for Tullys as we rooted for the Starks" factor.

Considering that it looks logical (long time I haven't made such compliment for a D&D choice) if they delayed Jaime evolution to make it happen in King's Landing, important change in a character happening in an important place for the viewers.

Now it doesn't answer why they still decided to make him travel there. I guess because they still needed him to see Brienne again, to put him on track for this futurer evolution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jamie and Brienne may meet again in the Riverlands.

But, I'm at a loss as to why they included the hugely expensive siege of Riverrun just to get those two back together.  It doesn't appear to have had anything to do w/reintroducing the Tullys or setting up the BF for anything, since BF is dead and Tully is now no one you would root for.

They could have just as easily sent Jamie to meet with Walder Frey and had him run into Brienne, since she's run into almost everyone in Westeros on the road already, LOL.

It was a very strange choice to have so much Tully stuff all to come to zero.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NCW said in an article I just read is that Jaime loves Brienne but he can't express that love to her and vice versa since they serve other interests. Brienne serves Sansa and the Starks and Jaime serves Cersei and the Lannisters. Their priorities are to their duties and their feelings take a backseat. I do believe they have a connection, but they will kill each other if need be simply because they can't tell how they really feel for each other and their sense of duty gets in the way. Kind of sad really.

As for the Brotherhood, I'm almost certain, with the Hound with them now, that a Brienne/Hound confrontation may happen. Not sure how that will play out though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From ep8 it seems like a waste of time and im assuming loads of money if thats the end of the arc as jack diddly squat got accomplished that couldnt have been done with dialogue 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the books it looks like Brienne and Jaime will be forced to fight by the BWB and Stoneheart. Let´s not rule out something like that happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/14/2016 at 6:10 PM, Greggles said:

Also kinda feeds into my pet tin foil hat theory that he's the PTWP/Azor Ahai, but that's another thread.

Ah.  A kindred spirit.  Good.  I think his aunt gave the game away when she said that Tyrion was Tywin's true son. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no idea what the point of the entire Riverrun story plot was, other than to get Jaime out of King's Landing for a few weeks.

And that's because:

11 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I don't think there is any chance of Jamie feeling the same way about Cercei by the end of the series, or even the season.

1 - I wonder if spending time with Brienne maybe makes him realize the truth? The actor admitted to IGN that his character has feelings for Brienne, if it wasn't clear on the show. 

2 - With Jaime not in King's Landing, Cersei is more and more desperate (no more allies, no more Trial by Combat). I just wonder if Tommen dying is going to be the thing that pushes her over the edge to madness, and Jaime comes back to realize that the woman he loved has completely lost her mind - and has to be the one that kills her. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Danelle said:

The thing is that Cersei's infidelities are only part of Jaime's disillusionment towards her.

Jaime clearly thinks of Cersei as a beacon of hope and well survival.

In COK he informs Catelyn that the thought of Cersei sheltered him from Aerys' paranoia.

Following his release from Riverrun, it is the thought of Cersei which motivates him to keep going, even when is a captive.

But with Robert dead, Jaime was ready to reveal his affair with Cersei to the world, instead he was forced by his father and sister to conform.

Their relationship is sick and clearly damages both of them.

During the events of SOS, Jaime realises that.

The procedure of distancing himself from Cersei is gradual, it begun when he refused to kill Tyrion for her.

Tyrion's revelation did not have an instant impact on Jaime. It took some for Jaime to digest the truth/rumours. At the sept he still loved her, he simply did not agree with the man she wanted him to be.

Jaime also does not approove of the person that Cersei has become or the people she associates with and in retrospect, he was right. 

Jaime turning his back on Cersei is a crucial moment in his arc and it actually begun when he chose to save Brienne, thus delaying his return to KL.

Her having affairs with other men partly makes Jaime to reevaluate his relationship with Cersei.

He has been evolved to someone who is not prompted by his love for Cersei in order to act.

Saving Brienne, sending her to seek and protect Sansa, ending the siege at Riverrun without bloodshed, saving Tyrion had nothing to do with his love for Cersei. On the contrary, they went against to what Cersei wanted him to do. 

I am not suggesting that Lancel, Osmund and Moonboy as Cersei's lovers had no impact on Jaime, but it was the only reason for him to choose to abandon her.

Perhaps the BWD will arrest Brienne and Pod, find the Starkannister sword in her possession and threaten to kill Pod, unless she delivers Jaime to them?

I can imagine the BWB recruiting Brienne and Pod to their cause, but how can Jaime follow them to the North and why?

Your summary of the book arc is on point and exactly why I'm so disappointed with what they have done to Jaimie's story.  Part of it is a by-product of how Cersei's character has changed.  She is much smarter/less paranoid/more self aware in the show than in the books.  

The BWB is an interesting idea.  I would have thought the reason that it was important for Jaimie to get to the Riverlands is b/c his POV ends in a pretty dramatic place in the books that has none of its components set up at this point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/15/2016 at 6:47 AM, Boarsbane said:

What Frey wedding? I assumed they'd cut that with Daven not being in the show but I haven't been paying much attention anymore so I could of missed it

In the preview for this season, there is a big feast scene where the Lannisters and Freys are shown together. Granted, it may have been a stretch to assume it was a wedding. They could just be celebrating the re-taking of Riverrun, but I tend to think the show wants to follow to books to an extent and have the Red Wedding 2: The Revenge Of The Starks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×